Obviously I mean an Umbrella scheme, not an Umbrella to keep the water off
I went for a PAYE (asked on phone, got told it was PAYE) job today through an agency, gets there, fills forms out, does licences and checks etc, and then gets to the âpayroll formâ which includes the âfeeâ for me to get paid the wages Iâve earnedâŚ
Iâve no interest, donât want to be told âYouâll be better off by ÂŁx per weekâ going through Umbrella or Ltd.
I just want paying for what I earn as a worker
If I want to claim back travel expenses and meal crap, then I know what forms to fill in with the tax man, itâs not black magic
I thought there was a ruling a while back that basically said, they donât mind them offering LTD and Umbrella schemes, but also have to offer PAYE too?
Iâve googled it and canât find it, so maybe it was just a really pleasant dream
to be fair if they explain it and assess if its going to be better for you then maybe its worth considering?
as other than holiday pay (which in my experience drivers tend not to take that much) if you go flat rate vat you are better off with the cash in hand so to speak.
if its not of benefit then yeah offer paye as I know a few older boys who are no better off on ltd so put paye.
Wayned Tomorrowâs budget has something about curtailing contractorsâ/umbrella company travel and subsistence expenses I read, that will probably be buried in the small print that he doesnât read out at the speech, and only comes out when people get hold of the full text. This will shake a few of those daft(Lying) adverts that show ÂŁÂŁâs per hour when in reality they are including meal allowance & travel etc âŚabout time, lets have a fair wage!
mas430:
Wayned Tomorrowâs budget has something about curtailing contractorsâ/umbrella company travel and subsistence expenses I read, that will probably be buried in the small print that he doesnât read out at the speech, and only comes out when people get hold of the full text. This will shake a few of those daft(Lying) adverts that show ÂŁÂŁâs per hour when in reality they are including meal allowance & travel etc âŚabout time, lets have a fair wage!
Nah, itâll just cost the drivers more money and possible fines / big bills when discovered, the agencies wonât have any issues at all
its nothing new they have changed it already, think accounting was hammered and drivers done, nova were looked at and passed the hmrc test. not sure about the âin houseâ schemes that various agencies run.
My agency tried to force me onto umbrella but I refused.
Itâs all very well claiming all those expenses and yes youâre entitled to claim them but youâll only be better off individually.
Our tax pays to run the country (yes Iâm well aware they donât use it as best they could) the less money there is in the system the less there is for building / maintaining infrastructure, hospitals, funding the MOD and police etc.
Iâd rather pay a bit more to the taxman than let some parasite earn off of me.
war1974:
Nah, itâll just cost the drivers more money and possible fines / big bills when discovered, the agencies wonât have any issues at all
Agencies will get screwed for employers NI plus corporation tax on whatever percentage of drivers invoices they decide donât count. Drivers will most likely get a bill for income tax and NI for 20% of all theyâve claimed as expenses.
That is what should happen but the lack of tax inspectors at HMRC makes me think it wonât or will but only to the unlucky.
Iâve read through all the manuals and guidance HMRC released in April 2014 when they changed the goalposts and the vast majority of drivers self employed are not in compliance, neither are the agencies. Sadly the umbrella companies are in the clear as its not their responsibility to ensure youâre doing things legally - they just supply an accountancy service.
There are too many firms thatâll let you waste your day signing up in every other aspect, only to tell you itâs âcompulsaryâ to join the Umbrella.
Itâs not.
What unfortunately is the case however - is that there was no actual desire for the firm in question to âemploy youâ at all.
If you are Umbrella or Ltd - YOu are SELF EMPLOYED. YOU pay both sets of national insurance contributions.
By rights, you should then be able to set your own rates - but of course youâll be told âthe rate is the rateâ (ie OUR rate - take it or leave it) - Not bad for a firm that you are effectively employing out of YOUR pocket to âsend you a payslipâ each week with ÂŁ27 deducted for âfeesâ.
This argument about âYouâll be better off under Umbrellaâ stems from the things you can get tax-deducted for. Trouble is, this has already been cracked down upon, and in future youâll need receipts for absolutely everything claimed - even petrol and meal receipts. Petrol is easy enough, but 100 miles @ 45p a mile actually only saves you ÂŁ9 which means youâd need to be claiming 300 miles a week just to break even on the typical umbrella fee of ÂŁ27 per payslip (regardless of if it has 8 hours or 60 hours on it)
Food receipts? - Anything with no VAT number on it is not accepted by HMRC. That till roll you might get at a cafe, that bus ticket they might give you at a roadside kiosk - if you get anything from such places at all⌠They donât count.
Maintenance for your own vehicle? - Not claimable Iâm told - unless you actually use your vehicle to transport goods in rather than just commute to work in.
You mustnât spend more than 40% of your working year at the same yard either. All these fences to jump, and you might end up with a typical tax saving of ÂŁ20-ÂŁ30 per week, the upper end if you are working 6 days⌠Too much mileage on your commute, and unless you have a very cheap to run car - youâre not gonna make money out of 9p per mile net are you?
Unless you can set your own rates to around ÂŁ18 per hour (I would consider ÂŁ14ph for a regular 48 hour week with a rolling 3 month contract) then umbrella just isnât worth cutting your arm off just to get in the door for.
Everywhere that told me after Iâd signed up that you âreally need to join the umbrellaâ then gave me no work whatsoever when I insisted upon âPAYE onlyâ.
Food receipts? - Anything with no VAT number on it is not accepted by HMRC. That till roll you might get at a cafe, that bus ticket they might give you at a roadside kiosk - if you get anything from such places at all⌠They donât count.
Not correctâŚa company/sole trader does not have to be VAT registered if their income is below a set amount , you can still write down expenses against tax even if you donât have a VAT number from that company/trader , what you cant do is claim the VAT back if your VAT registered.
Maintenance for your own vehicle? - Not claimable Iâm told - unless you actually use your vehicle to transport goods in rather than just commute to work in.
You can claim up to 45ppm as long as the vehicle is insured for business use⌠that amount includes maintenance
If your going to give âadviceâ at least make sure is accurate
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If your going to give âadviceâ at least make sure is accurate
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All umbrella scamsâŚoops sorry schemes,are another form of legal swindle ,if these folks wernt working for umbrella companies ,they would be swindling the ordinary man out of his money ,another wayâŚIf I ever got to powerâŚthe round-ups will begin
Food receipts? - Anything with no VAT number on it is not accepted by HMRC. That till roll you might get at a cafe, that bus ticket they might give you at a roadside kiosk - if you get anything from such places at all⌠They donât count.
Iâve been kicked off meal expenses at my agency, because I didnât supply receipts for every single meal I claimed for. I was claiming it as a daily allowance assuming everyone got it. I was told that was wrong⌠Who actually eats out every damned day anyway? HMRC website was very specific about âself-catering doesnât countâ when it comes to claiming meal expenses.
Not correctâŚa company/sole trader does not have to be VAT registered if their income is below a set amount , you can still write down expenses against tax even if you donât have a VAT number from that company/trader , what you cant do is claim the VAT back if your VAT registered.
People joining umbrella wonât be going Ltd or sole trader. If they were, theyâd do this instead of joining the umbrella.
Maintenance for your own vehicle? - Not claimable Iâm told - unless you actually use your vehicle to transport goods in rather than just commute to work in.
You can claim up to 45ppm as long as the vehicle is insured for business use⌠that amount includes maintenance
The 45ppm is a tax offset - not a gift from HMRC. At 20% base rate income tax thatâll knock 9p per mile off your tax bill upto taxable earnings around the ÂŁ40k mark.
If your going to give âadviceâ at least make sure is accurate
Like anyoneâs advice - I can only speak from personal experience.
If I was being railroaded into something I wasnât happy with Id walk away sharpish. The whole s/e and umbrella situation is a mine field and the powers that be ie HMRC have plenty of tricks up their sleeves to enforce legislation that your average Joe has never even heard of. Think Accounting of Lincoln, bought out by New Wave Accounting is a fine example of the mess that has been created. Think boasted on their website that they were not a managed service company provider and gladly deducted their weekly fee from the contractors who used their services for accounting requirements. Those contractors are now receiving large tax demands in the thousands of pounds because of the managed service company legislation. Basically HMRC are saying that full Ni and income tax should have been paid on earnings.
So the situation is the hard pressed contractor gets a large tax bill and also in the process got fleeced by Think Accounting with excessive charges. The tax man gets money from the contractor and the poor old contractor begins to wonder what has hit him.
To me if companies that operate these schemes are constantly being checked out by HMRC for compliance, including Umbrella schemes then because of the large array of powers HMRC have then its only a matter of time before the goal posts are moved further in favour of HMRC.
