A company I know runs a scheduled bus service 14 seat mini bus 6 days a week, when the regular driver, with pcv, is off for days off/holidays another driver without pcv stands in, they get round this by not taking any fares activating the not for hire or reward clause. Your thoughts please.
a free bus 
, where does this happen
Wonder if the driver recieves payment in kind from the passengers 
ooooooer missus 
Be interesting how the converastion would go if he got pulled over by traffic or wheel tappers… 
I don’t know about England, but over here (Qld anyway), you can drive a 14 seater on a car licence, as long as you don’t take money.
Hectors-dad:
A company I know runs a scheduled bus service 14 seat mini bus 6 days a week, when the regular driver, with pcv, is off for days off/holidays another driver without pcv stands in, they get round this by not taking any fares activating the not for hire or reward clause. Your thoughts please.
i will stand corrected but if the driver is paid for doing it IE a wage buy the firm the that is hire and reward
Exempted passenger carrying vehicles
Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below:a passenger carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers
a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided the following conditions are met:
i. the vehicle is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body but not for hire or reward
ii. the driver is aged 21 iii. the driver has held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years
iv. the driver is providing the service on a voluntary basis
v. the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers
vi. if the driver is aged 70 or over, is able to meet the health standards for driving a D1 vehicleWhen driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses or tow any size trailer; you may only drive minibuses in this country. Drivers aged 70 or over will need to make a special application, which involves meeting higher medical standards.
Holders of a full category D (PCV) driving licence can also drive a passenger carrying recovery vehicle. This is defined as a vehicle (not being an articulated goods vehicle combination) which:
has an unladen weight not exceeding 10.2 tonnes
is being operated by the holder of a public service vehicle (PSV) operator’s licence and, is being used for the purpose of:
i. proceeding to, or returning from, a place where assistance is to be, or has been, given to a damaged or disabled passenger-carrying vehicle
ii. giving assistance to or moving a disabled passenger-carrying vehicle or moving a damaged vehicle
Itl all be done cash in hand/back hander so this firm can get away with it by the sounds of it.
delboytwo:
Hectors-dad:
A company I know runs a scheduled bus service 14 seat mini bus 6 days a week, when the regular driver, with pcv, is off for days off/holidays another driver without pcv stands in, they get round this by not taking any fares activating the not for hire or reward clause. Your thoughts please.i will stand corrected but if the driver is paid for doing it IE a wage buy the firm the that is hire and reward
That’s the exemption for driving a minibus on a B license.
A holder of D1(not for hire or reward) can do it as long as the passengers are not paying to be on the bus. It would be irrelevant that the driver was paid. It was discussed in this thread
Hectors-dad:
A company I know runs a scheduled bus service 14 seat mini bus 6 days a week, when the regular driver, with pcv, is off for days off/holidays another driver without pcv stands in, they get round this by not taking any fares activating the not for hire or reward clause. Your thoughts please.
The driver MUST have a D1 licence (if between 8 and 17 seats) - does not matter if got a 107 restriction code or not if passengers are not paying.
Hectors-dad:
A company I know runs a scheduled bus service 14 seat mini bus 6 days a week, when the regular driver, with pcv, is off for days off/holidays another driver without pcv stands in, they get round this by not taking any fares activating the not for hire or reward clause. Your thoughts please.
Well from what you’ve said it certainly looks like they got the ‘hire’ bit covered. The ‘reward’ is for the driver, i’d assume he doesn’t get paid then.
I would think there would be a problem if as Hectors-dad says it is a Schedule service. If it is registered as such then IMHO a qualified driver would be needed.
Mike-C:
The ‘reward’ is for the driver, i’d assume he doesn’t get paid then.
Hi Rog you have answer the post it would be illegal it would not matter if the passengers did not pay the company that operate the bus would be doing it for profit
cos in you letter you posted in paragraph 5 last sentence
its a contract there probably get extra money from the council or who ever as asked them to do the scheduled bus service
Thanks for all the replies, the service is subsidised by the local council, one of the drivers will have passed their test after 1997 the others before that, I think that if anything happened they wouldnt have a leg to stand on.
This is a very important piece of info.
Hectors-dad:
Thanks for all the replies, the service is subsidised by the local council, one of the drivers will have passed their test after 1997 the others before that, I think that if anything happened they wouldnt have a leg to stand on.
It seems that this a regular COMMUNITY service which is EXEMPT from PCV rules.
The only criteria for a driver on this type of service on a vehicle with more than 8 seats but less than 18 seats is to have a D1 licence - not a PCV.
Rog, be careful with your reply.
The fact that the service is subsidised by the council does not automatically mean that it is a community bus.Councils subsidise all kinds of bus servicesThe original post stated that the “company” used drivers.this would imply that it is “with profit organisation”.
To cover off the D1 or not D1 for 9 to 16 passenger seats is easy.
if the bus is used for hire and reward (paying passengers and company profit) D1.
If the bus is used under a section 19 permit(charities etc) and no pay for the driver no D1.
This is why airport transfers and hotels generally stick to 8 seats.
These agency’s and gangmasters that run over 9 seats with no D1 driver don’t charge the workers for the ride as it would be illegal so they take it off there wages which is still illegal but easier to hide.
disgo:
Rog, be careful with your reply.
I see your point - thanks
disgo:
If the bus is used under a section 19 permit(charities etc) and no pay for the driver no D1.
I will check this with DVLA as the last time I spoke with them they said there is no exception for the size of vehicle in regard to a licence - ie - if 8 to 17 seats then D1 in any circumstances - I will check again with them…
This is quite confusing, the company is a large nationwide concern and is a profit (well sometimes) making company, when the pcv holding driver is on money is taken. The drivers are all paid so no cash in hand. If i was a passanger on this bus and there was a crash how would their insurance stand up? Would it be invalid as the driver did not have the correct licence?
Hectors - dad,I put these regulations on here years ago,will see if they are still on here but in the meantime you are still a little vague on what this company uses this 9 to 16 seat minibus for.Let me go through the regs briefly again.
If a driver passed car test before jan 1997 cat D1 was inherited when they became 21 years of age.This entitled them to drive a minibus “not for hire and reward”.This basically meant that a group of friends could hire a minibus to go to a footy match or you could drive the scouts to a jamboree providing no charge was made and the driver was not paid.
If you worked for a non commercial body (under a permit scheme) you could be paid.
If a driver passed a car test after Jan 1997 there is no D1 on license therefore cannot drive a minibus unless you drive for a non commercial body for social purposes(no hire and reward - no passenger charge) unless operating under a section 19 permit when passengers can be charged BUT the driver must be voluntary.This does not mean you volunteer to drive it but means the driver does not get paid.
The driver also has to be over 21 and the minibus weighs no more than 3 and a half tonnes 0r 4 and a quarter with extra equipment.
disgo, did you read the definitive reply I posted from Jim fitzpatrick in regard to paying the driver 
I think you will find that the age for having a D1 is now 18 but it is immaterial as anyone under 28 would need to pass a PCV test to get one
disgo:
If the bus is used under a section 19 permit(charities etc) and no pay for the driver no D1.
ROG:
I will check this with DVLA as the last time I spoke with them they said there is no exception for the size of vehicle in regard to a licence - ie - if 8 to 17 seats then D1 in any circumstances - I will check again with them…
UPDATE -
I rang DVLA and …
- Drivers who do not have minibus entitlement (category D1)
If your car licence does not allow you to drive minibuses, there are certain circumstances where you may still be able to do so.
You may drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided:
(i) you drive on behalf of a non-commercial body for social purposes but not for hire or reward (unless operating under a permit);
(ii) you are aged 21 or over;
(iii) you have held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years;
(iv) you are providing your service on a voluntary basis;
(v) the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes excluding any specialist
equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers. Minibuses up to 4.25 tonnes will be permitted in certain circumstances (see below);
and
(vi) you do not tow a trailer.
Note: There is no specified method of calculating the weight of specialist equipment such as tail lifts or wheelchair security fittings, but there is an allowance of 750kg for the extra equipment for minibuses which are intended for the carriage of passengers with disabilities or wheelchair users.
I hope this helps