Is there a skill shortage in HGV drivers?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Jingle Jon:
To deny there is a driver shortage is a bit like trying to argue the world is flat… everyone knows it’s round and everyone in the haulage sector knows there is a genuine shortage of drivers.

If there’s a genuine driver ‘shortage’ then,as ROG has correctly pointed out,we’d expect to see the adverts for real jobs at real company employers paying the right wage under the right terms and conditions ( not 15 or even 13 hour shifts ).With the words new inexperienced drivers welcome in big letters at the bottom. :bulb: :imp:

As for free labour markets for some reason the employers seem keen on a one sided free labour market that allows cheap low wage expectation labour to be imported here.But not so keen on a free labour market between the old colonial commonwealth countries like UK/Australia/Canada/US.Why is that.The fact is people are finally seeing through this rigged race to the bottom system and are now voting accordingly right across the English speaking world.

62

Jingle Jon:

Freight Dog:
It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

It’s basically the donkey pulling the cart.

Tenders are put in etc… wages are measured against that.

Truth of the matter is… most truck drivers couldn’t earn more than they do doing anything else - otherwise they would.

There’s also real regional issues.

So you’re basically saying more of the same please? :unamused:

Now here’s a bit of ‘out of the box’ thinking for you.
What if supplier A can’t meet demand because they can’t get the drivers?
Maybe they’ll learn and go to supplier B who can get drivers.

But no, you’d like to keep sucking it up… :unamused:

63

Jingle Jon:

Freight Dog:
It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

It’s basically the donkey pulling the cart.

Tenders are put in etc… wages are measured against that.

Truth of the matter is… most truck drivers couldn’t earn more than they do doing anything else - otherwise they would.

There’s also real regional issues.

Tenders are put in/wages against is a very insular way of assessing what the wider reasons for wage stagnation is. You have to step back and look wider than that.

Regional issues have always been relatively comparative. 2003 wages now in east anglia for drivers and more or less 2003 wages now in the Corby Triangle for non agency employed, people get a lob on now for over £10/hour. You could walk into a job in Northants in 2003 on £9.50/hour.

And just because someone couldn’t “earn more doing anything else” does not justify supressment of their wages because they’re easy targets.

64

Freight Dog:
No one company is to blame, it’s the system. They’re all guilty. It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

More like what happens when Capitalism loses sight of the actual object of it.Which is to pay people as much as possible,to work as few hours as possible, producing as much as possible.So that they can enjoy their short life in this world and buy as much of what they produce as possible during what time we have.

65

Freight Dog:

Jingle Jon:

Freight Dog:
It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

It’s basically the donkey pulling the cart.

Tenders are put in etc… wages are measured against that.

Truth of the matter is… most truck drivers couldn’t earn more than they do doing anything else - otherwise they would.

There’s also real regional issues.

Tenders are put in/wages against is a very insular way of assessing what the wider reasons for wage stagnation is. You have to step back and look wider than that.

Regional issues have always been relatively comparative. 2003 wages now in east anglia for drivers and more or less 2003 wages now in the Corby Triangle for non agency employed, people get a lob on now for over £10/hour. You could walk into a job in Northants in 2003 on £9.50/hour.

And just because someone couldn’t “earn more doing anything else” does not justify supressment of their wages because they’re easy targets.

I love talking GCSE Politics and Sociology. Does anybody really think Socialism and full on renationalisation is any kind of prophylactic!?! Thatcher may have had her foibles, but anything post-1979 works better than anything ‘pre’ in a Society with far too much choice…

66

sdg1970:
No way. I joined the MN in South Shields as an engine cadet with the aim to have a job to finance a different goal (I was playing the long card :laughing: ) but it didn’t work out for me as a cadet (I tried to switch from engine to deck after the first term and lost my place). My late teens/early twenties were a whirlwind of different jobs :laughing:

(Sorry, just realised your quote is missing and I can’t get it back)

67

Carryfast:

Freight Dog:
No one company is to blame, it’s the system. They’re all guilty. It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

More like what happens when Capitalism loses sight of the actual object of it.Which is to pay people as much as possible,to work as few hours as possible, producing as much as possible.So that they can enjoy their short life in this world and buy as much of what they produce as possible during what time we have.

You’re relying on Capitalism by its modern nature self creating and being captained by anything other than greed mongerers ever climbing the top to reach Everest whilst treading on the skulls of the many fallen below, rather than any utopian idea of Quaker style ethics these days.

68

Freight Dog:

sdg1970:
No way. I joined the MN in South Shields as an engine cadet with the aim to have a job to finance a different goal (I was playing the long card :laughing: ) but it didn’t work out for me as a cadet (I tried to switch from engine to deck after the first term and lost my place). My late teens/early twenties were a whirlwind of different jobs :laughing:

(Sorry, just realised your quote is missing and I can’t get it back)

The problem with the MN is that it won’t recognise talent beyond around age 22. Same for most ‘Professional’ jobs or apprenticeships. You can go to University at any age after doing an Access Course, but if you want to properly re-train and do something apprenticeship based, you’re screwed after around 24. Driving excepted, because it lies in a league of it’s own, neither here, nor there, Society still hates you for it…

69

Freight Dog:

Carryfast:

Freight Dog:
No one company is to blame, it’s the system. They’re all guilty. It’s what happens with unbridled capitalism.

More like what happens when Capitalism loses sight of the actual object of it.Which is to pay people as much as possible,to work as few hours as possible, producing as much as possible.So that they can enjoy their short life in this world and buy as much of what they produce as possible during what time we have.

You’re relying on Capitalism by its modern nature self creating and being captained by anything other than greed mongerers ever climbing the top to reach Everest whilst treading on the skulls of the many fallen below, rather than any utopian idea of Quaker style ethics these days.

… and what happened under the ‘Post War Concensus’ style by 1979…

70

sdg1970:
… and what happened under the ‘Post War Concensus’ style by 1979…

The question is how do you explain the difference between 1930 as opposed to 1970 ?.Or wages v prices and the value of the pound in your pocket in real terms now v 1970.Or the fact that economic growth today more or less matches that of 1932.

71

sdg1970:
Maritime Studies. Then after not getting on VLCC’ s as a cadet, I happily dropped out and carried on regardless - I now live on the canal with all the other dropouts and loonies who reject mortgage slavery and having kids etc, etc…

a very good canal… for carp fishing. :grimacing: I’ll bring me rods. :sunglasses:

72

People are paid what the job is worth.

The macro effect of this is that we can all afford things at an affordable price - given that almost everything we own spends at least part of its life on the back of a lorry.

Better educated drivers are most likely to negotiate better conditions, or at least be able to accept their circumstances are far from the worst around and be grateful for the job they have.

As far as advertising is concerned (which is being incorrectly used to prove some non-existent point)… I’ve already addressed that. I for one can’t remember a time when employers were more proactively recruiting, this driver shortage along with supply and demand is how I set my own fees. Most people are not willing to take risks, they seek full-time (less well paid - but more stable) employment, this makes much more sense if you are looking to secure a mortgage etc. I’m not in that position so work differently.

If wages were to rise and conditions greatly improved, this might bring more drivers in, but I’m far from convinced it would make a significant change, it certainly won’t happen overnight and in reality… other employers in other industry would just respond with the same… it would merely create an unnecessary spike of inflation and solve nothing.

The main issue I see putting people off… is the high cost of becoming qualified and on that basis, the OP, even though not in the industry… is onto something… IMO.

73

Questions 9, 15, and 17 at least, could do with a "Dont Know" option, Id suggest. As a driver I dont know much about my (bosss) company future plans or recruitment issues. I chose neutrals answers to complete the form.

74

Jingle Jon:
People are paid what the job is worth.

So why is the industry worried that they are losing drivers and not replacing them then?
If your statement was true, there wouldn’t be any potential issues would there?

Jingle Jon:
The macro effect of this is that we can all afford things at an affordable price - given that almost everything we own spends at least part of its life on the back of a lorry.

So why was the NMW introduced then? Wasn’t it to protect industries where labour had flooded the market and driven prices/wages down?

Jingle Jon:
Better educated drivers are most likely to negotiate better conditions, or at least be able to accept their circumstances are far from the worst around and be grateful for the job they have.

Gee thanks Mr Bossman, I’m so grateful I can just about put food on the table. Even though I’m earning less now than I was 15 years ago, I thank you from the bottom of my heart that I actually have a job, and can work my arse off for you.

Jingle Jon:
As far as advertising is concerned (which is being incorrectly used to prove some non-existent point)… I’ve already addressed that. I for one can’t remember a time when employers were more proactively recruiting, this driver shortage along with supply and demand is how I set my own fees. Most people are not willing to take risks, they seek full-time (less well paid - but more stable) employment, this makes much more sense if you are looking to secure a mortgage etc. I’m not in that position so work differently.

An increase in advertising is NOT proof of a driver shortage, at best it is evidence that drivers aren’t ‘2 a penny’ anymore, and employers are actually having to put a bit of effort into recruitment, nothing more!

Jingle Jon:
If wages were to rise and conditions greatly improved, this might bring more drivers in, but I’m far from convinced it would make a significant change, it certainly won’t happen overnight and in reality… other employers in other industry would just respond with the same… it would merely create an unnecessary spike of inflation and solve nothing.

So you admit wages haven’t risen?
As for bringing more people into the industry, what else do you propose other than improvements in pay and conditions? Should we reintroduce slavery, or press gang people into the industry? And so what if there is a rise in inflation, as who says things are currently in equilibrium? To me there needs to be a re-balance between those doing white collar work and those that graft. Perhaps some of those currently choosing white collar work as a better option, may be attracted to become drivers and fill this void you speak of…

Jingle Jon:
The main issue I see putting people off… is the high cost of becoming qualified and on that basis, the OP, even though not in the industry… is onto something… IMO.

Bollox, what’s putting people off is the reward on the investment of the training. Do you really think people are so stupid that they can’t see past the initial outlay? The costs could be 10k, but if a driver knew they’d be earning 40k a year after that for reasonable hours, they’d be queuing around the block…

75

Evil8Beezle:

Jingle Jon:
People are paid what the job is worth.

So why is the industry worried that they are losing drivers and not replacing them then?
If your statement was true, there wouldn’t be any potential issues would there?

Jingle Jon:
The macro effect of this is that we can all afford things at an affordable price - given that almost everything we own spends at least part of its life on the back of a lorry.

So why was the NMW introduced then? Wasn’t it to protect industries where labour had flooded the market and driven prices/wages down?

Jingle Jon:
Better educated drivers are most likely to negotiate better conditions, or at least be able to accept their circumstances are far from the worst around and be grateful for the job they have.

Gee thanks Mr Bossman, I’m so grateful I can just about put food on the table. Even though I’m earning less now than I was 15 years ago, I thank you from the bottom of my heart that I actually have a job, and can work my arse off for you.

Jingle Jon:
As far as advertising is concerned (which is being incorrectly used to prove some non-existent point)… I’ve already addressed that. I for one can’t remember a time when employers were more proactively recruiting, this driver shortage along with supply and demand is how I set my own fees. Most people are not willing to take risks, they seek full-time (less well paid - but more stable) employment, this makes much more sense if you are looking to secure a mortgage etc. I’m not in that position so work differently.

An increase in advertising is NOT proof of a driver shortage, at best it is evidence that drivers aren’t ‘2 a penny’ anymore, and employers are actually having to put a bit of effort into recruitment, nothing more!

Jingle Jon:
If wages were to rise and conditions greatly improved, this might bring more drivers in, but I’m far from convinced it would make a significant change, it certainly won’t happen overnight and in reality… other employers in other industry would just respond with the same… it would merely create an unnecessary spike of inflation and solve nothing.

So you admit wages haven’t risen?
As for bringing more people into the industry, what else do you propose other than improvements in pay and conditions? Should we reintroduce slavery, or press gang people into the industry? And so what if there is a rise in inflation, as who says things are currently in equilibrium? To me there needs to be a re-balance between those doing white collar work and those that graft. Perhaps some of those currently choosing white collar work as a better option, may be attracted to become drivers and fill this void you speak of…

Jingle Jon:
The main issue I see putting people off… is the high cost of becoming qualified and on that basis, the OP, even though not in the industry… is onto something… IMO.

Bollox, what’s putting people off is the reward on the investment of the training. Do you really think people are so stupid that they can’t see past the initial outlay? The costs could be 10k, but if a driver knew they’d be earning 40k a year after that for reasonable hours, they’d be queuing around the block…

It might help you to cease cluttering the web with your bilge if you accept I am not interested in you.

76

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

77

ATsimpson:

Uncle Albie:
I can tell you one thing about LGV driver skills.

The standards of their driving is appalling in a lot of cases.

We need to eradicate bad driving before anything else.

There is certiny a shortage of decent drivers.

To make it more clear, the title of the dissertation piece is not yet set in stone, but yes, clearly there is a lack of experienced HGV drivers

Or maybe there is a divide between HGV drivers and transport, logistics and HR managers?

If so I would love to hear your views, remember, I am impartial,

Cheers guys and gals,

I am not just talking about new inexperienced drivers.
The standard amongst all drivers is very poor.
To much complacency with experienced drivers.

78

My wages have risen 3 times in the last 4 years.

79

Or this thread too…?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144032#p2272736

80

Jingle Jon:
People are paid what the job is worth.

The macro effect of this is that we can all afford things at an affordable price - given that almost everything we own spends at least part of its life on the back of a lorry.

Better educated drivers are most likely to negotiate better conditions, or at least be able to accept their circumstances are far from the worst around and be grateful for the job they have.

As far as advertising is concerned (which is being incorrectly used to prove some non-existent point)… I’ve already addressed that. I for one can’t remember a time when employers were more proactively recruiting, this driver shortage along with supply and demand is how I set my own fees. Most people are not willing to take risks, they seek full-time (less well paid - but more stable) employment, this makes much more sense if you are looking to secure a mortgage etc. I’m not in that position so work differently.

If wages were to rise and conditions greatly improved, this might bring more drivers in, but I’m far from convinced it would make a significant change, it certainly won’t happen overnight and in reality… other employers in other industry would just respond with the same… it would merely create an unnecessary spike of inflation and solve nothing.

The main issue I see putting people off… is the high cost of becoming qualified and on that basis, the OP, even though not in the industry… is onto something… IMO.

Im surprised that someone who seems to be one of younger members seems to be an acolyte of Adam Smith. A great man of course, and his ideas have been valuable, but surely J K Galbraith, Dan Ariely, Ha-Joon Chang, and others have more to say about economics to-day. We (in the UK) do not live in a "free market". We do not live in a command economy either. We live in a mixture of the two. We are not Smiths “free agents” making “rational decisions”. We are human beings making emotionally influenced choices, only sometimes good ones.