In the search for improvement I have decided to find the answer.
Take someone that can paint pictures well. Is he a skilled painter or an artist ?
I believe skills can be learnt but artism is mostly natural.
Every day I train people on C or CE. Everyone can be taught to pass the test but some are natural drivers. I really believe the natural drivers will go on to have a good career whereas some people despite passing have chosen the wrong direction.
My feeling is that driving is an art.
I would say bit of both really
Skill you can learn art you can improve on
LGVTrainer:
Every day I train people on C or CE. Everyone can be taught to pass the test but some are natural drivers. I really believe the natural drivers will go on to have a good career whereas some people despite passing have chosen the wrong direction.
At last, the first time i’ve ever read or heard this from a trainer since i was taught, far too many years ago, well done for saying it.
You do realise among the guild of master trainers devotees that you’ve now committed sedition among the ranks, just alluding to the possibility that some trainees maybe shouldn’t be going down this road will annoy the hell out of them.
It’s long been my belief that it would be best for everyone, including the trainee, if those who are obviously not cut out to be lorry/psv drivers were encouraged not to pursue it, in extreme cases by refusing to continue when your gut feelings tell you that said trainee isn’t going to a driver as long as they have a certain orifice.
I believe it’s a trainers duty to not continue when its that obvious someone isn’t lorry driver material, it won’t happen often, far better than the likely results of sending the wrong people out in lorries.
Note, i’m not and never have been a driving instructor but some years ago i trained a goodly number of car transporter drivers, funny old game that, lots of trainees simply left, some passed training but left shortly after, car transport isn’t for everyone.
I abandoned only one individual and after only one day out on the road, he should never have passed a lorry test in the first place, terrifying isn’t too strong a word for it, though he could load and secure cars almost naturally…
My boss, who thought anyone could be trained, got the arse with me for refusing to train him and trained the geezer himself, this i should add on an artic transporter with a peak (car over cab but semi trailer not lorry/drag), yes the really awkward buggers to drive, the bloke successfully stuffed the thing under a railway bridge fully loaded at full speed within weeks, that was an expensive lesson for my boss too.
Not sure it’s an art form, but some people take to driving naturally, and progress as they gain experience, course they never stop learning just as no one does, taking an increasing pride in their increasing abilities.
Their opposites meanwhile don’t want to learn, perfect their abilities after passing, not interested in the pleasures (much reduced now) and pride of getting the best from the vehicle you are driving (and looking after it), using terrain timing etc to help maintain smooth progress, using as little power (fuel) as possible and as much overrun as possible.
First you need the skill then you can make it artistic.
Interesting! I’ll think about this one.
In response to Juddian, there’s some very sound points made there. As commercial trainers, we have a clear dilemma. If a customer really wants to learn and is spending his own funds, I believe we have a responsibility to do our very best with him and achieve the result. I have in mind a case in the 80’s of a redundant miner in his fifties. Had taken his redundancy so was nicely set up. But he desperately wanted to drive a truck. Took him for assessment and my comments were along the lines of, although you’re a really nice bloke, this really isn’t for you. His response was that he respected that view but, come what may, he was going to persevere with it and wanted to spend the funds with me as he’d heard I was quite good. (or words to that effect). He started with a double length course and I had to cancel the test cos he wasn’t ready. He failed his first test on reverse (this was artic), failed his second test - I cant remember why - passed third time. He was ready for test but stuff happened so it was 3rd go. On the way home I asked him how much he’d spent on training. Cant remember the figure - but it probably equated to about 4 courses. He knew the figure to the nearest pound. Told me what it was and followed the statement immediately by saying “worth every penny”.
Two weeks later he bought a 4x2 tipper and was doing motorway repair work. He passed away a couple of years ago having built up a modest fleet and employing several drivers.
On the other hand, we do fleet work. Folks with no aptitude are referred to their manager at the first hurdle because there’s other opportunities for them and they would be sapping funds from those who are going to succeed and be an asset to the company.
So I agree with Juddian on the whole. I DO let folks know, at assessment, if I believe they are going to have problems. And, referring to another thread, this is the value of an assessment. Sensible folks are aware that they may not find this easy before they embark on it.
As for skill or art - - still thinking.
Good thread John,
Pete 
Well Pete, knock me down with a feather, my flabber is ghasted.
I thought you’d be up in arms at my impertinence, that’s why i stuck the guild of master trainers bit in there to goad a reaction… 
Fair play to you.
Still reckon you shouldn’t be teaching autos though… (where’s the bloke with worlds biggest wooden spoon smiley)…or rather, i don’t think its right that they train and can pass on an auto and yet gain a manual ticket.
Juddian:
Still reckon you shouldn’t be teaching autos though…
Agree with this if you do test in auto that should be the licence you get
We do have both manual & auto at our place unfortunately most are Scania both C & CE
So if 1 of your trainees passed in an auto got a job where I work was then thrown the keys to a manual how are they going to know how to drive it properly 
My trainer said (without modesty) im one of the most skilled and talented drivers he ever trained but my big problem is discipline. He never said i cant do it he said i wont pass the test. I passed it 100% 1st try in birmingham where is pretty hard comparing other pplaces so my opinion if u have the skills its up to u to make art from it. So its skill combined with art. One without the other is like a truck without a trailer. My opinion 
.
I would class it as a craft.
I am still in early days of training on the road. Forwards is okay(ish), but reversing is challenging. I have lost count of the number of drivers who have said they can’t explain how it is done, you just have to ‘feel’ the manoeuvre.
The driving test reverse is not really reversing at all, it is choreography and geometry. Trainees are taught to turn the wheel so far, follow a line until X, turn the wheel that way, watch for this cone in that mirror and so on. The trainee learns to do the test reverse well, but does not necessarily learn about reversing a truck.
I know from my own experience that only now, after a few weeks of real world reversing, the ‘feel’ is coming and I’m starting to get the hang of it. What was once a seriously difficult problem manoeuvre is becoming more natural and less of a challenge. I still have a lot more to learn, but I can see signs of good progress.
I reckon it is largely an art, with a bit of science, physics and geometry thrown in. The latter can be taught, but the former comes with experience.
Im going to get shot here but have a look at this for an official classification :
ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/ … method.pdf
If you go to question 4 - an Artist is deemed as modern professional occupation and a lorry driver as a routine manual / service occupation.
there are definitely drivers with no skill that’s for sure… have some where I work and our customers are always mentioning how the ■■■■ did they get their licence hahhaha
Some really good views and help to me. To me the main difference between skill and art is that a skill can be learnt with training and practice but perhaps never improved on. For example learning to hang wallpaper.
An art however is something you commit to until you become the very best at or at least you don’t stop trying to become the best. For example an Olympic champion.
I often ask students if they think they’re the best ever UK test candidate. Most answer truthfully. I then ask what they think the best ever done differently to them. Usually no answer. It’s the difference between skill and art.
I know this is deep but art is the holy grail.
It’s not quite so easy to become at one with a lorry any more, there was time when you could feel the beast, after a while you felt at one with the engine and gearbox, and you ‘felt’ the road, you sympathetically got the best from the thing whilst caring for it too, she became yours.
I wonder if thats a throwback to those days when a carter would coax the best from his horses and care for them, and his wagon too.
There is still some pleasure to be gained form the job, apart from keeping the vehicle well, such as by overriding the automatic gearbox (not always easy as they don’t like it) and not only getting better fuel consumption than others who leave it in auto, but (aiding the fuel usage) maintaining better progress into the bargain, and using the brakes minimally by maximising engine braking and utilising terrain to be on overrun as much as possible.
No i don’t think its art as such, though watching a good driver do his/her thing is quite magical, its more developing your skills to get the best from the machine, even if the machine doesn’t want you to, there’s maybe a bit of rebellion in there but also some pride and pleasure to be gained.
are artists rebels?
LGVTrainer:
Every day I train people on C or CE. Everyone can be taught to pass the test but some are natural drivers. I really believe the natural drivers will go on to have a good career whereas some people despite passing have chosen the wrong direction.My feeling is that driving is an art.
My instructor on class C was a bit like this. Never said it but kept saying to me and the other trainee things like ‘‘think like a trucker’’. I detected a bit of in house snobbery like he was judging out careers before they even started, looking down his nose a bit. Got through it ok but it wasn’t enjoyable the feeling of being judged.
C+E trainer was totally different. Made us far more at ease with the attitude of your paying my wages to train, never once lost his rag or passed judgment. This experience was a joy by comparison.
What i’m saying with all this is, you are going to train drivers who look like naturals and others who just don’t have a clue and scrape it but with everything practice makes perfect. Its not rocket science, its driving a truck.
Maybe it’s possible to polish the skill to the point it becomes an art form?
Pete
Perhaps not art when surely fly he best formula 1 drivers and rally drivers are so picked because they truely are professionals and the best in the world !