Question on behalf of a freind of mine who is transporting cars for hire or reward …
He uses his own 4x4 and car trailer to move cars , vans etc and gets paid for it so there for hire or reward .
2 questions
shouldnt a tacho be fitted even if registerd as recovery its still only 62miles from base without tacho .
is a O licence required and if so would it come under restricted O licence and if so does anyone no what is needed to financialy get restricted
Many thanks
Bit difficult to answer the question given the information provided. Are the cards broken down or accident damaged? Where are they being moved from and to, by that I mean what type of premises? For example; garage to scrap yard or roadside to garage?
On the face of it I don’t think that a 4x4 with a trailer would be viewed as a ‘specialised breakdown vehicle,’ so it looks likely that EU drivers hours regs would apply and Tacho needed.
A dual purpose vehicle (this excludes 4x4s without rear passenger) seats and any trailer drawn by them is outside Operator licensing.
Hope that helps.
Your mate needs a standard national operators licence,as he’s doing it for hire and reward,also if that combination is over 3500kgs you need a tachograph.
Dave the Renegade:
Your mate needs a standard national operators licence,as he’s doing it for hire and reward,also if that combination is over 3500kgs you need a tachograph.
Not so Dave, see above
Wheel Nut:
Dave the Renegade:
Your mate needs a standard national operators licence,as he’s doing it for hire and reward,also if that combination is over 3500kgs you need a tachograph.Not so Dave, see above
Yes agree on the above post Malc,but it depends on the type of recovery which pav8 hasn’t made clear.
Any vehicle used for TRANSPORT does not receive these exemptions and must pay full goods vehicle excise duty, follow tachograph and driving hours regulations where applicable and have a correct operators licence in force, where applicable.
Recovery is defined as the movement of any ‘mechanically disabled vehicle’ , ie broken down or accident damaged but only to a place of safety.
Simply speaking to transport a vehicle for any reason excluding the above, on a recovery vehicle is ILLEGAL.
Will wait and see which category this vehicle comes under.
Cheers Dave.
Dave the Renegade:
Wheel Nut:
Dave the Renegade:
Your mate needs a standard national operators licence,as he’s doing it for hire and reward,also if that combination is over 3500kgs you need a tachograph.Not so Dave, see above
Yes agree on the above post Malc,but it depends on the type of recovery which pav8 hasn’t made clear.
Any vehicle used for TRANSPORT does not receive these exemptions and must pay full goods vehicle excise duty, follow tachograph and driving hours regulations where applicable and have a correct operators licence in force, where applicable.Recovery is defined as the movement of any ‘mechanically disabled vehicle’ , ie broken down or accident damaged but only to a place of safety.
Simply speaking to transport a vehicle for any reason excluding the above, on a recovery vehicle is ILLEGAL.
Will wait and see which category this vehicle comes under.
Cheers Dave.
But the vehicle is only a private 4x4 with a car trailer
Wheel Nut:
Dave the Renegade:
Wheel Nut:
Dave the Renegade:
Your mate needs a standard national operators licence,as he’s doing it for hire and reward,also if that combination is over 3500kgs you need a tachograph.Not so Dave, see above
Yes agree on the above post Malc,but it depends on the type of recovery which pav8 hasn’t made clear.
Any vehicle used for TRANSPORT does not receive these exemptions and must pay full goods vehicle excise duty, follow tachograph and driving hours regulations where applicable and have a correct operators licence in force, where applicable.Recovery is defined as the movement of any ‘mechanically disabled vehicle’ , ie broken down or accident damaged but only to a place of safety.
Simply speaking to transport a vehicle for any reason excluding the above, on a recovery vehicle is ILLEGAL.
Will wait and see which category this vehicle comes under.
Cheers Dave.But the vehicle is only a private 4x4 with a car trailer
Yeah could be under 3500kgs Malc and agree you could be right,its a grey area.
psv8:
Question on behalf of a friend of mine who is transporting cars for hire or reward …He uses his own 4x4 and car trailer to move cars , vans etc and gets paid for it so there for hire or reward .
2 questions
shouldn’t a tacho be fitted even if registered as recovery its still only 62miles from base without tacho .
is a O licence required and if so would it come under restricted O licence and if so does anyone no what is needed to financially get restricted
Many thanks
For the regulations to apply, the plated weight must be over 3500kg. However you mention a car trailer and his own 4x4
Under Schedule 3 (2) of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995 “a dual purpose vehicle and any trailer drawn by it” is identified as exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing. Examples include Range Rovers, Land Rovers, Jeeps, certain Japanese vehicles and those designed to go over rough ground as well as on roads, not being track laying vehicles
A small trailer of not more than 1,020 kilograms unladen weight can be ignored for the purposes of adding up total gross weights or unladen weights for drawbar outfits.
Thank you for the replys i seem to be getting conflicting answers from a lot of different avenues .
the use of the 4x4 and trailer will be used for buissnus use example purchase a car that is not road worthy due to no tax test etc right through delivering a car from a private sale to the buyer due to not been road worthy condition .
financialy will be paid by the customer who has supplied them with the work max weight i would imagine 90% of the time is over 3.5ton the 4x4 alone wights just over 2ton plus trailer there is very few cars that weight in at 1 ton so i guess most work ould be over 3.5ton .
running a tacho and eu drivers hours is of no problem at the minute its mainly regarding if a o licence is required or not and would the 4x4 need to be fitted with speed limiter
thanks
Assuming that the 4x4 has a transverse row of seats behind the driver - in easy speak - back seats fitted across the vehicle, then it will be viewed as a ‘dual purpose vehicle’ and will be operator licence exempt whether there is a trailer towed or not. To give you an idea; a ‘normal’ Shogun, Disco, Trooper with original equipment back seats would be exempt. All those vehicles are available in ‘commercial’ forms with no rear seats and often have the rear side windows panelled over. These would not be exempt O-licence.
As the gross weight of the 4x4 is less than 3500kg, no speed limiter required.
geebee45:
Assuming that the 4x4 has a transverse row of seats behind the driver - in easy speak - back seats fitted across the vehicle, then it will be viewed as a ‘dual purpose vehicle’ and will be operator licence exempt whether there is a trailer towed or not. To give you an idea; a ‘normal’ Shogun, Disco, Trooper with original equipment back seats would be exempt. All those vehicles are available in ‘commercial’ forms with no rear seats and often have the rear side windows panelled over. These would not be exempt O-licence.
I could be missing something here but if the unladen weight of the trailer is under 1020kg (which it almost certainly will be unless it’s a particularly big trailer) then it doesn’t count for O-Licencing and as such as long as the 4x4 in question is plated at under 3500kg surely the whole lot is exempt regardless of what seats it has?
Paul
Repton said;
I could be missing something here
Paul, you’re not missing anything. You are correct in that a trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1020kg is ignored in Operator Licensing with regard to light goods vehicles.
The point I was trying to make (probably not very clearly) is that if the towing vehicle is a ‘dual purpose vehicle’ then the vehicle and trailer (doesn’t matter what weight the trailer is) will be exempt O-licence.
Thanks for that it clears a few things up i just gatherd it woulkd need a O licence or tacho due to when loaded it will be over 3.5 ton
the 4x4 in question is a crew cab so there for comes into catogry as non comerchial
thanks
geebee45:
The point I was trying to make (probably not very clearly) is that if the towing vehicle is a ‘dual purpose vehicle’ then the vehicle and trailer (doesn’t matter what weight the trailer is) will be exempt O-licence.
Ah right, I see what you’re getting at now. I didn’t realise there was any kind of differentiation in that way.
Paul
Hi Mate, i used to run a small plant hire business where i was using a landrover defender to tow a trailer with diggers & vehicles on. The landrover was legally allowed to tow up to 3.5t. You do not need an operators licence, but if you are charging and making money from the movement of vehicle etc this is class as hire and reward, so for this you would need to have a tacho fitted to vehicle but would only need to use tacho when actually towing!
Our place has several 4 x 4s, Land cruisers and Discos, used to pull light but very large “items” up to the maximum of the specific vehicles. All are fitted with tachos but not on the o licence.
Anytime we use one we slap a tacho in because at some point during the day it will fall within scope of the regs and if not that day then at some point in the journey which can be days long 
We do get stopped by VOSA, surprisingly often 
They always look like the cat that’s got the cream until I pop open the glove box to reveal a tachograph and hand over all relevant paperworks and correct records 
As I drive the artic most of the time for the bigger ones, the rule of thumb I follow is to put a tacho in them every time, even if I’m just going to pick someone up or parts or any other random reason for which I may not even tow a trailer. It’s all within the 28 days and all that so it makes it an easy way, along with manual entries for non driving activities to keep track. 
We also get stopped abroad . wipes the smile right of Mon -Sewer Condoms face but they do insist on proof of lodgings i.e. hotel receipt or ferry ticket to prove you weren’t kippin’ across the seats
I’ve already spoken to VOSA about almost the very same thing, 4x4 pulling car transporting trailers.
Yes we do need a tacho and the driver will be under EU drivers hours whilst pulling a trailer.
No we don’t need an O licence for it, but he did recommend we carry a laminated copy of the regs just to show if it was queried at a check.
muckles:
I’ve already spoken to VOSA about almost the very same thing, 4x4 pulling car transporting trailers.
Yes we do need a tacho and the driver will be under EU drivers hours whilst pulling a trailer.
No we don’t need an O licence for it, but he did recommend we carry a laminated copy of the regs just to show if it was queried at a check.
Always a good idea. We carry a translation in multiple languages as well, with an illustrative diagram with weights, dimensions and the relative eu laws to quieten any excitable cheeky foreign police chappy
I think we got to the bottow of that little complication. So many grey areas!!!
And just to complicate matters even more, this was announced in a response to a consultation document yesterday;
Abolition of the small trailer exemption
Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 exempts from operator licensing a ‘small goods vehicle’ forming part of a vehicle combination (not being an articulated combination) where all the vehicles comprising the combination excluding any ‘small trailer’ have a plated weight not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A small trailer is defined under the Act as a trailer with an unladen weight not exceeding 1020kg. This trailer does not need to be included when calculating the 3.5 tonne limit.
However, under the Regulation all the vehicle combination (including any trailer) operating for hire or reward must be included when calculating the weight limit, so the small trailer exemption will be abolished for hire or reward operations from 4 December 2011. However, the small trailer exemption under paragraph 3 of schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 will remain in place for operators carrying goods other than for hire or reward.
It can be found here, on page 48 of the Response Document:
assets.dft.gov.uk/consultations/ … sponse.pdf
So mabey the answer is about to change dramatically!!!
Also in the same document it states:
Trainers using loaded vehicles
An EU Directive (2008/65) on driver training includes a requirement that Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) used for training must meet a minimum ‘real weight’ requirement on the day they present for test — known as Real Total Mass (RTM). This could involve a load being carried on the vehicle to meet the weight requirement. Employers have frequently complained that drivers need further training in laden vehicles once they have passed their test.
As vehicles currently used for driver training and testing purposes do not carry goods or burden they are outside the scope of operator licensing. However, in order to meet the RTM requirements, some test vehicles would have to carry a ‘dummy’ load or ballast. As a consequence of this, the users of the vehicles (i.e. the training organisations) are likely to come within scope of operator. The
47
Driving Standards Agency has held a mini-consultation and the new regulations will be in force prior to December.
Not such a bad idea in my opinion. A little more regulation and perhaps the correct type of training on loaded vehicles will produce better drivers?? 
geebee45:
Assuming that the 4x4 has a transverse row of seats behind the driver - in easy speak - back seats fitted across the vehicle, then it will be viewed as a ‘dual purpose vehicle’ and will be operator licence exempt whether there is a trailer towed or not. To give you an idea; a ‘normal’ Shogun, Disco, Trooper with original equipment back seats would be exempt. All those vehicles are available in ‘commercial’ forms with no rear seats and often have the rear side windows panelled over. These would not be exempt O-licence.As the gross weight of the 4x4 is less than 3500kg, no speed limiter required.
sorry for the time delay , just out of interest are you saying this is a dual purpose vehicle
while this isn’t ■■?
you’re going to give the NFU and a lot of farmers a heart attack if I’m reading this right