Insecure load? REALLY?

[dieseldog999]

Conor:

Goldentanks:
Think back a couple of years to just before the dcpc kicked in, nobody gave a crap about an envelope being strapped but now it is a heinous crime regardless of the fact nothing has moved and nobody has been injured. As has been mentioned, we used to move most of our loads around without restraints, the skilled drivers would look at their load and make it safe if they deemed it not to be. Very few loads were lost unlike today where it is a hourly occurrence.

What utter codswallop. The reason load security is now a big thing is because of how many have been lost over the years and the millions of hours lost to those unfortunate to be in the resulting road closures and diversions. Stuff did move, people did get injured and in some cases even killed. Only knobends looked at their load and decided whether they could get away with it or not, it had nothing to do with skill, everything to do with “Can I get away with it? Sod it I’ll just go careful on corners.” Plenty of loads were lost, plenty arrived at the other end not looking anything like when they set off. The only difference between now and then is that technology has made reporting such incidents and the associated road closures nationwide much easier. Had the internet and things like the Highways Agency App and TrafficEngland.com existed back in the day it would be reporting as bad if not worse than today.

People are telling drivers how to do their job today because such a large amount of them have demonstrated over decades their complete inability to actually do it properly to a decent standard. I went to do a store delivery last week in Wakefield. Store manager came up to me and asked if I’d been there before because they didn’t recognise me and when I said no I hadn’t they were surprised I’d reversed in instead of driving in and getting stuck like many other drivers had done the first time they’d gone there. That is how bad it has got. For every decent driver there’s at least 10 who only have a job because of a shortage of those willing to drive lorries.

Clowns like you must be taking some kind of tablets that distort your memory because quite clearly you have some real screwed up ideas about the “good old days”. Dieseldog999, well he’s from Northern Ireland which looks like its still stuck in the 1970s attitude wise and there’s not a single driver on that entire lump of land who can drive worth a ■■■■ as they like to demonstrate every time they land here.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
well old bean…im not indigenous to northern ireland,i just live there as life in mainland uk has slumped to an unacceptable level for me,hence i left 15 years ago.
personally,id take a tang with a few seasons on the grass under his belt before a few years hooked up on the wire on trip dosh to be somewhat more skilled than your average brain dead agency kebab meat working for plobbers like stobarts looking for the nearest bridge to hit.but hey ho…each to their own opinion.

[goldentanks]

Conor:

Goldentanks:
Think back a couple of years to just before the dcpc kicked in, nobody gave a crap about an envelope being strapped but now it is a heinous crime regardless of the fact nothing has moved and nobody has been injured. As has been mentioned, we used to move most of our loads around without restraints, the skilled drivers would look at their load and make it safe if they deemed it not to be. Very few loads were lost unlike today where it is a hourly occurrence.

What utter codswallop. The reason load security is now a big thing is because of how many have been lost over the years and the millions of hours lost to those unfortunate to be in the resulting road closures and diversions. Stuff did move, people did get injured and in some cases even killed. Only knobends looked at their load and decided whether they could get away with it or not, it had nothing to do with skill, everything to do with “Can I get away with it? Sod it I’ll just go careful on corners.” Plenty of loads were lost, plenty arrived at the other end not looking anything like when they set off. The only difference between now and then is that technology has made reporting such incidents and the associated road closures nationwide much easier. Had the internet and things like the Highways Agency App and TrafficEngland.com existed back in the day it would be reporting as bad if not worse than today.

People are telling drivers how to do their job today because such a large amount of them have demonstrated over decades their complete inability to actually do it properly to a decent standard. I went to do a store delivery last week in Wakefield. Store manager came up to me and asked if I’d been there before because they didn’t recognise me and when I said no I hadn’t they were surprised I’d reversed in instead of driving in and getting stuck like many other drivers had done the first time they’d gone there. That is how bad it has got. For every decent driver there’s at least 10 who only have a job because of a shortage of those willing to drive lorries.

Clowns like you must be taking some kind of tablets that distort your memory because quite clearly you have some real screwed up ideas about the “good old days”. Dieseldog999, well he’s from Northern Ireland which looks like its still stuck in the 1970s attitude wise and there’s not a single driver on that entire lump of land who can drive worth a ■■■■ as they like to demonstrate every time they land here.

You see there it is plain and simple. Newbie drivers like yourself who have no faith in your skills or abilities mock those who show you how it should be done.
A professional driver looks at his load and knows exactly what to do with it to ensure a smooth safe delivery of those goods whereas a woman like you needs instructing on how to identify the load, perform a dynamic risk assessment of the load, contact dvsa to enquire how to secure said load, call in the local health and safety executive to monitor the whole routine and finally pluck up the courage to start the engine before leaving the yard with an armed police ■■■■■■ to clear the way for you.

Those of us who know what we are doing simply get on with it without incident or issue.

[peterm]

We used to do steel wire from Low Moor at Bradford to London on flats. Sheeted and roped on every hook. Would some of you say ‘Not worth sheets and ropes, I’ll drive to the load?’ What about double stacked pallets of glass (bottles) for Optrex, Cross & Blackwell etc? I could go on but I’ve made my point for most people.

[goldentanks]

peterm:
We used to do steel wire from Low Moor at Bradford to London on flats. Sheeted and roped on every hook. Would some of you say ‘Not worth sheets and ropes, I’ll drive to the load?’ What about double stacked pallets of glass (bottles) for Optrex, Cross & Blackwell etc? I could go on but I’ve made my point for most people.

There you go, ropes and sheets were once considered adequate and did the job perfectly well. What changed? I’ll tell you what changed, the driver and his attitude, skills, abilities, common sense, size of balls. Today’s drivers don’t know ■■■■. Throw them a rope and they will think you want them to hang themselves. I would still prefer a rope to a ratchet strap personally but what would I know.

[stevieboy308]

Goldentanks:

peterm:
We used to do steel wire from Low Moor at Bradford to London on flats. Sheeted and roped on every hook. Would some of you say ‘Not worth sheets and ropes, I’ll drive to the load?’ What about double stacked pallets of glass (bottles) for Optrex, Cross & Blackwell etc? I could go on but I’ve made my point for most people.

There you go, ropes and sheets were once considered adequate and did the job perfectly well. What changed? I’ll tell you what changed, the driver and his attitude, skills, abilities, common sense, size of balls. Today’s drivers don’t know [zb]. Throw them a rope and they will think you want them to hang themselves. I would still prefer a rope to a ratchet strap personally but what would I know.

What changed was curtain siders got invented.

I can’t rope and sheet, I don’t mind admitting that, do I feel inferior or inadequate? Na

[rowley010]

stevieboy308:

Goldentanks:

peterm:
We used to do steel wire from Low Moor at Bradford to London on flats. Sheeted and roped on every hook. Would some of you say ‘Not worth sheets and ropes, I’ll drive to the load?’ What about double stacked pallets of glass (bottles) for Optrex, Cross & Blackwell etc? I could go on but I’ve made my point for most people.

There you go, ropes and sheets were once considered adequate and did the job perfectly well. What changed? I’ll tell you what changed, the driver and his attitude, skills, abilities, common sense, size of balls. Today’s drivers don’t know [zb]. Throw them a rope and they will think you want them to hang themselves. I would still prefer a rope to a ratchet strap personally but what would I know.

What changed was curtain siders got invented.

I can’t rope and sheet, I don’t mind admitting that, do I feel inferior or inadequate? Na

No you can rope and sheet, it’s just there’s rarely a need to so newer drivers aren’t shown how to. Some of these older drivers make out that roping and sheeting is some magical art that you had to be driving in the 70s to know how to do. The only reason new drivers can’t do it is because there is no need so they don’t get taught it. They physically can do it if taught, it’s not a mysterious art or something you need a PHD for.

[stevieboy308]

Rowley010:

stevieboy308:

Goldentanks:

peterm:
We used to do steel wire from Low Moor at Bradford to London on flats. Sheeted and roped on every hook. Would some of you say ‘Not worth sheets and ropes, I’ll drive to the load?’ What about double stacked pallets of glass (bottles) for Optrex, Cross & Blackwell etc? I could go on but I’ve made my point for most people.

There you go, ropes and sheets were once considered adequate and did the job perfectly well. What changed? I’ll tell you what changed, the driver and his attitude, skills, abilities, common sense, size of balls. Today’s drivers don’t know [zb]. Throw them a rope and they will think you want them to hang themselves. I would still prefer a rope to a ratchet strap personally but what would I know.

What changed was curtain siders got invented.

I can’t rope and sheet, I don’t mind admitting that, do I feel inferior or inadequate? Na

No you can rope and sheet, it’s just there’s rarely a need to so newer drivers aren’t shown how to. Some of these older drivers make out that roping and sheeting is some magical art that you had to be driving in the 70s to know how to do. The only reason new drivers can’t do it is because there is no need so they don’t get taught it. They physically can do it if taught, it’s not a mysterious art or something you need a PHD for.

I can’t, but I’ve no doubt I could if properly shown! But other than that, totally agree. I have asked my dad to show me a couple of times and he has, but it was just at home, not doing a load on a truck and as I’ve never once needed to do it in the last 19 years it hasn’t sunk in and I wouldn’t have a clue.

But I’d bet there’s plenty of things I can do that plenty of the people who look down their nose at me can’t do

And just like their predecessors could look after their horse, the rope and sheet purists probably couldn’t as they’ve had no need too

[winseer]

switchlogic:
This increasingly ridiculous over zealous insecure load campaign makes me really glad I’ve just taken a job pulling tankers.

Maybe they’ll follow you, and notice that you are a third full, with the liquid sloshing about - creating a wobble in your driving, like you were drunk…

“Ello Ello Ello…”

[carryfast]

Goldentanks:
There you go, ropes and sheets were once considered adequate and did the job perfectly well. What changed? I’ll tell you what changed, the driver and his attitude, skills, abilities, common sense, size of balls. Today’s drivers don’t know [zb]. Throw them a rope and they will think you want them to hang themselves. I would still prefer a rope to a ratchet strap personally but what would I know.

So not exactly the same thing as saying that we ‘used to move most of our loads around without restraints’.

Yes ropes are ok so long as you take the view stated above using a pass over the load at more or less every hook or sometimes in between.Which makes the case for relying on just the curtains of a curtain sider,to hold heavy pallet loads how.Which should often ideally be in stillages as in this case and the stillages then roped with a cross front and back on each one or each row and at least one pass over the middle.Which is obviously moot when they generally don’t even fit curtain siders with bleedin rope hooks.

So yes the good drivers are often being taken for idiots and then blamed when it all goes wrong all for the lack of some rope hooks and not being taught how to use ropes.Although as I said there is a point where it takes chains not ropes to hold certain types of loads and I walked away from a job partly on that basis well over 25 years ago.

While the steering wheel attendants can’t/won’t tie down a load properly anyway regardless of whether it’s using chains,straps or ropes,back then or now.

On that note I’d guess that’s what Peterm was referring to.While you were clearly saying why bother at all based on some bs idea of what constituted old school practice.In which curtains or tilts were always just meant to keep the load dry not hold it on the truck and carrying bricks meant using a drop/cage sider then or now.

[carryfast]

stevieboy308:
What changed was curtain siders got invented.

I can’t rope and sheet, I don’t mind admitting that, do I feel inferior or inadequate? Na

I can’t sheet either ( at least to Bewick’s standards ).

But the idea of curtain siders was actually just to help those like me and to save the time lost mucking about with bleedin great big sheets even for the best of them.NOT to replace the need to secure the load on the deck.On that note it was possible to spec and find rope hooks on curtain siders and tilts.While not fitting them obviously removes an essential load securing option regards same.While drivers who can’t won’t rope a load is something totally different arguably putting them into the steering wheel attendant category.

[carryfast]

Rowley010:
No you can rope and sheet, it’s just there’s rarely a need to so newer drivers aren’t shown how to. Some of these older drivers make out that roping and sheeting is some magical art that you had to be driving in the 70s to know how to do. The only reason new drivers can’t do it is because there is no need so they don’t get taught it. They physically can do it if taught, it’s not a mysterious art or something you need a PHD for.

Trust me even back in the day sheeting was definitely a black art which not all could/can do right ( including me ).

Roping is something completely different and there were plenty of loads carried on flats which were roped and not sheeted.Which is the point.A curtain sider is just a flat that doesn’t ever need to be sheeted.

[robroy]

Goldentanks:
Once upon a time the load was the responsibility of the driver and if anything went wrong it was the driver who answered for it. Nowadays everybody else seems to want to tell the driver how to do his job. the drivers ability to think for himself has flown out of the window along with the skills that went with road haulage. Most modern drivers pay for their licences with brain cells.

Think back a couple of years to just before the dcpc kicked in, nobody gave a crap about an envelope being strapped but now it is a heinous crime regardless of the fact nothing has moved and nobody has been injured. As has been mentioned, we used to move most of our loads around without restraints, the skilled drivers would look at their load and make it safe if they deemed it not to be. Very few loads were lost unlike today where it is a hourly occurrence.
Strapping loads does not make them secure, it simply ticks boxes. Strapping a standard 26 pallet load with the internals does not stop the load shooting forwards or backwards, but it is classed as safe by those know it alls at the dvsa. Think about that one.

Right let’s break this down, and I’ll explain how I understand it to be, and how I agree with it unlike some of you…

1…The responsibility of the driver bit still stands…correct.
Hpwever, everybody else from the likes of non job type compliance managers and the like, to a kid who calls himself a planner always think they know better today…correct.

2…Drivers not thinking for themselves…That is what these ‘Up their own arses’’ type firms want, (and get) …non initiative yes men…correct. (in many cases)

3…Fewer skills needed today… correct.
Time was there was a world of difference between a car and a truck, as opposed to today being like driving a bigger version of a car.
I know of at least 4 guys personally in the past, who could not hack the likes of crash boxes, so gave up, 2 of them were totally feckless but today with autos they would have slipped through the net and blagged a licence, hence the abundance of ■■■■ poor car drivers with Class 1s, ie any chimp can get one.

4…The point about roping and sheeting is the same, another skill not needed to learn, along with the likes of route planning and map reading, and yeh, of course anyone could learn it, as has been said, it’s not rocket science, but that’s the whole point of that example, the job is dumbed down to virtually no skill needed…so again, basically correct.

(No way in hell would I want to go back to sheets, crash boxes, even manuals etc either btw.)

5…Not sure what he means about the brain cells thing, but there are thankfully still many good drivers today that are relatively new…(cue Jakethesnake. )

6…Like it or not, way back, stuff was not tied down so stringently as today, it was just the done thing to load such as pulp for example, on a flat with only a back cross or not at all, I personally don’t remember an epidemic of lost loads littering the m.ways in biblical proportions even if the likes of Conor does, the dcpc reference could also apply to him as he seems to have swallowed the official agenda for it hook line and sinker,

(although there is no evidence of an improvement in either work practices or calibre of driver since it’s launch…but hey ho, apparentlly its ‘‘essential, and the saviour of all things transport’’ )

7…Strapping of loads by internals down either side is box ticking, if the thing rolls the load will not stop on…so again correct.

I’m not speaking for the o/p of this post btw, I’m just giving my take on it and why I said I agreed with it, to answer those who did not…

[elsa_lad]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don’t always agree with everything robroy writes, but I think he is spot on this time. Roping and sheeting was a arse. If you think shutting a curtain is a pain on a windy day, try putting a sheet on down the docks while it was pouring with rain and blowing a gale I wont miss them days, but it was a skill you had to learn. Old ERF’s with crash box’s yes I have fond memories but would I go back to it~ NO WAY. Things move on. Yes now with vosa wanting to open your back doors when you get pulled into a check point you would be daft if you don’t strap it down. Or they will shaft you good and proper through the back door But the point is it unnecessary how some loads are strapped on, if a lorry going over some daft straps aint going to keep it on.
Rowley 101 said “well if you swerve at 56mph around a car it may stop someone getting killed”-yes possibly, but that’s the problem, drivers now tailgate at 56mph and having to swerve because they don’t do defensive driving. If you hold back a bit and leave space they would be far less crashes on the roads and you don’t lose any journey time. To be a reasonable driver you need to read the road and leave yourself time to react. Sadly its becoming less common now.

[stevieboy308]

The game’s moved on, just like it had from what it was before you started, no one should be surprised at that, all the games generally move on.

One of the other jobs I’ve done is farming, massive changes in that in recent years, GPS auto steer, with 20mm accuracy, operators can’t do that, it was an art form driving straight, but one of the best I know at it said he didn’t realise what straight was until he got GPS rtk auto steering.

The sprayer I started on I had to raise and lower the boom, tilt it side to side, trying to keep it 50cm above the crop, had to manually shut off 4 6m sections to minimise overlap without missing any, and try to do it the same every time in each field do I didn’t run out or have loads left in the tank, the one we have now, auto sensing boom height, contour control, it’s on 9 sections that’s ■■■■ off and on perfectly every time by the GPS, each field sprays out the same every time.

It’s dumbing down the operator skill level, although new skills are needed in operating the tech, but the games changed and it’s always gonna.

You’re incharge of road safety, are you gonna sign off that no load restraint is fine and it’s upto the driver to decide? And what? Just prosecute them when something falls off?

The point is they don’t want ■■■■ falling off, and killing someone and then busting the driver isn’t that great for the dead dude or their family, so it clear, everyone knows where they stand, secure it or you’re risking a fine, attitudes will change on this I have no doubt, just like they did with seat belts, I remember as a kid when it became compulsory, people would hold them across them, it’s bonkers to think of that now, just plug it in! Same with kids on knees, I went on people’s knees in cars plenty of times with my mum and dad, my mum and dad wouldn’t dream of doing that with my kids now.

So are you gonna be one of the last to cotton on? Or not?

And do you consider yourself a ■■■■ trucker because you can’t connect the horses up to the wagon?

[robroy]

stevieboy308:
The game’s moved on, just like it had from what it was before you started, no one should be surprised at that, all the games generally move on.

One of the other jobs I’ve done is farming, massive changes in that in recent years, GPS auto steer, with 20mm accuracy, operators can’t do that, it was an art form driving straight, but one of the best I know at it said he didn’t realise what straight was until he got GPS rtk auto steering.

The sprayer I started on I had to raise and lower the boom, tilt it side to side, trying to keep it 50cm above the crop, had to manually shut off 4 6m sections to minimise overlap without missing any, and try to do it the same every time in each field do I didn’t run out or have loads left in the tank, the one we have now, auto sensing boom height, contour control, it’s on 9 sections that’s [zb] off and on perfectly every time by the GPS, each field sprays out the same every time.

It’s dumbing down the operator skill level, although new skills are needed in operating the tech, but the games changed and it’s always gonna.

You’re incharge of road safety, are you gonna sign off that no load restraint is fine and it’s upto the driver to decide? And what? Just prosecute them when something falls off?

The point is they don’t want [zb] falling off, and killing someone and then busting the driver isn’t that great for the dead dude or their family, so it clear, everyone knows where they stand, secure it or you’re risking a fine, attitudes will change on this I have no doubt, just like they did with seat belts, I remember as a kid when it became compulsory, people would hold them across them, it’s bonkers to think of that now, just plug it in! Same with kids on knees, I went on people’s knees in cars plenty of times with my mum and dad, my mum and dad wouldn’t dream of doing that with my kids now.

So are you gonna be one of the last to cotton on? Or not?

And do you consider yourself a [zb] trucker because you can’t connect the horses up to the wagon?

Cheers for the social history lesson, and the lecture on farming through the ages mate …but I think it’s you who should …‘‘Cotton on’’.

I fully understand things have changed, the job has changed and times have changed.
I’ve already stated that I have also personally moved with the times…the clue was when I said ‘‘I strap every bloody thing down these days’’ (page 1 23rd post down) but that does not mean I have to believe everything that VOSA, dcpc, or everybody else with a vested interest tells me.
So I just conform to avoid getting nicked…simple.
You ‘‘cottoned on’’ with that?

[stevieboy308]

Don’t worry big fella, that wasn’t unnoticed!

So you’re in charge of road safety / truck safety etc

Would you sign off that no load security is required, other than what you think does? Come on, what is your rules you’d draw up?

[robroy]

stevieboy308:
Don’t worry big fella, that wasn’t unnoticed!

So you’re in charge of road safety / truck safety etc

Would you sign off that no load security is required, other than what you think does? Come on, what is your rules you’d draw up?

Seriously?
Bit of a pointless hypothesis mate, but can’t be arsed even to think about it tbh.
What would I do if I won the lottery, …What would I do if Newcastle won the Champions League…, What would I do if Holly Willoughby threw herself at me…All about as unlikely as me being in charge of road and truck safety I reckon.
But hey!..flattered to hear you think it could happen for me anyway.

[stevieboy308]

robroy:

stevieboy308:
Don’t worry big fella, that wasn’t unnoticed!

So you’re in charge of road safety / truck safety etc

Would you sign off that no load security is required, other than what you think does? Come on, what is your rules you’d draw up?

Seriously?
Bit of a pointless hypothesis mate, but can’t be arsed even to think about it tbh.
What would I do if I won the lottery, …What would I do if Newcastle won the Champions League…, What would I do if Holly Willoughby threw herself at me…All about as unlikely as me being in charge of road and truck safety I reckon.
But hey!..flattered to hear you think it could happen for me anyway.

Kop out that fella

Or is it a case that sometimes the easiest questions are the hardest to answer?

[robroy]

Cop out?
Go on then, I’ll indulge you.
In charge of road safety…
Make the training at grass roots harder, so a licence had to be earned by actually learning how to DRIVE a truck rather than just handed out after being taught only how to pass a test.
Included in the training syllabus would be old style values like empathy and courtesy to other truck drivers, and to other road users,.along with lessons on route planning and (shock horror) not using sat nav, different types of loads and trailers, low bridge risks, and yeh…load security.
A bit like an apprenticeship if you like, but not the type such as Stobbies, by name only to receive a government grant either.

A refresher after a year of passing, up to 5 years then every 5 years after that initial annual refresher, with a ‘‘one strike and out’’ policy on licences in first 2 years after passing test if offence deemed dangerous or downright negligent.

That would be more value than the dcpc dog ■■■■, then in theory it would be a ‘‘Sort out the cause of the disease’’ and the present after effects of that disease (ie.■■■■ poor pathetic excuses for truck drivers) should virtually disappear.

How’s that for you…and so I don’t ‘‘Cop out’’ in your eyes on the others…
Lottery…go mad spending till it hurt.
Newcastle Utd…maybe die of shock.
Holly Willoughby…as above.
Cheers.

[stevieboy308]

robroy:
Cop out?
Go on then, I’ll indulge you.
In charge of road safety…
Make the training at grass roots harder, so a licence had to be earned by actually learning how to DRIVE a truck rather than just handed out after being taught only how to pass a test.
Included in the training syllabus would be old style values like empathy and courtesy to other truck drivers, and to other road users,.along with lessons on route planning and (shock horror) not using sat nav, different types of loads and trailers, low bridge risks, and yeh…load security.
A bit like an apprenticeship if you like, but not the type such as Stobbies, by name only to receive a government grant either.

A refresher after a year of passing, up to 5 years then every 5 years after that initial annual refresher, with a ‘‘one strike and out’’ policy on licences in first 2 years after passing test if offence deemed dangerous or downright negligent.

That would be more value than the dcpc dog [zb], then in theory it would be a ‘‘Sort out the cause of the disease’’ and the present after effects of that disease (ie.■■■■ poor pathetic excuses for truck drivers) should virtually disappear.

How’s that for you…and so I don’t ‘‘Cop out’’ in your eyes on the others…
Lottery…go mad spending till it hurt.
Newcastle Utd…maybe die of shock.
Holly Willoughby…as above.
Cheers.

Most of that sounds good to me, but I do think it makes sense to have using a sat nav as part of it, as that’s the real world they’re gonna by driving in.

But you’re not saying it for gonna have something similar to what we have now, where everything needs to be strapped or a positive fit in an XL rated trailer or are you having no rules?