The-Snowman:
How the hell did it get from a knocked back application for a butchers shop to whether we would eat a jack russell and chips?
Blimey you’re a bit behind it went from dog burgers to cannibalism after that.In addition to women serving on front line service in Rjan’s Red Guards regiment. 
Carryfast:
Blimey you’ve made a leap there from Korean v Brit attitudes to eating dogs to the issue of cannibalism among humans.
It’s all connected by a philosophical thread that we enjoy life most when we choose to treat others well. We befriend dogs/humans by choosing to treat them benevolently, and we enjoy friendship and community more strongly by treating others benevolently more consistently (and by coming to think of new people only as potential friends, not also potentially as food). And uniquely with humans, eat not lest ye be (or forever fear being) eaten!
When we relate to each other only as enemies, competitors, or instruments and biological machines, not only do our counterparts obviously suffer if we get on top, but even we become deprived of the pleasure of more good human relationships, drained and our minds narrowed by the effort required to subdue our adversaries, and struck by fear of the tables turning.
Carryfast:
More Socialist bs.No one is saying impose British culture on everyone else.What’s being said is that there are ( rightly ) limits to the tolerance that immigrant communities have the right to expect when transferring ‘their’ culture to our country.While it’s bleedin hypocritical of them ( and the bleeding heart Socialists ) to expect more tolerance from others than that which they are willing to show others in return.
There are limits, but what some people are saying is that the limit is zero! Zero tolerance - you either swallow every demand that any “indigenous” Brit may make, or leave the country (back to an imaginary homeland for those who’ve never been out of Britain).
As for curry restaurants being vandalised in the 1970’s no I don’t remember that.But I do remember naively and innocently getting caught up in one of the regular inter ethnic flare ups involving Asians v both each other and the indigenous community while attending college in the Hounslow area as part of my job in Feltham.Only escaping,some of the even sword wielding nutters, having been warned by workmates of the impending danger with them,unlike myself,having the luxury of having grown up and living in the place.Unlike myself and one or two others only knowing life growing up and living in the indigenous heartlands of the Surrey Greater London border.
And you attribute all this to an excess of tolerance?
As for a woman’s place being in the home.No surprise that you’d prefer the Red Army idea of putting them into front line armed service duty instead.While no doubt ignoring the idea of women first off a sinking ship in favour of gender equality.
Or perhaps I’m just in favour of women’s choice, and perhaps a better idea of “children and primary caregiver first off” (the reality in the past being that it was mostly the wealthy off first whilst the liner owners skimped on lifeboats).
On that note remind us what EU membership gender equality did for women’s pension rights here.
It certainly didn’t force the UK government to raise the unified pension age toward 70 and beyond, that’s for sure.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Blimey you’ve made a leap there from Korean v Brit attitudes to eating dogs to the issue of cannibalism among humans.
It’s all connected by a philosophical thread that we enjoy life most when we choose to treat others well. We befriend dogs/humans by choosing to treat them benevolently, and we enjoy friendship and community more strongly by treating others benevolently more consistently (and by coming to think of new people only as potential friends, not also potentially as food). And uniquely with humans, eat not lest ye be (or forever fear being) eaten!
When we relate to each other only as enemies, competitors, or instruments and biological machines, not only do our counterparts obviously suffer if we get on top, but even we become deprived of the pleasure of more good human relationships, drained and our minds narrowed by the effort required to subdue our adversaries, and struck by fear of the tables turning.
In an ideal world we’d all be friends and could share evereything and everywhere on earth would be like Switzerland.Unfortunately it ain’t ever going to be an ideal world.Nature gave some of us a better deal regards fertile land and water and know how in how to use it to our best advantage.Nature also made us like every other living creature in which we have to compete for our existence and conserve what we’ve got for our own tribes/nations not give it all away to every one else.Nor over populating the place to a level where we out run our resources or destroy the quality of life being part of that.In addition to recognising that nature put different cultures and ethnic groups on different parts of the planet for a reason.Ironically Switzerland proving that we don’t have to get involved in unnecessary wars or open our borders to the world’s less fortunate in that regard.
It goes along the lines the world owes no one a living and each to their own ( cultures and homelands ) regardless of the deal nature dealt us by accident of birth in where we happen to be and end up on the planet.The choice being do we then allow the bleeding heart idealists to destroy western Europe in that regard or do we stop them before they manage to do it. 
Rjan:
Carryfast:
More Socialist bs.No one is saying impose British culture on everyone else.What’s being said is that there are ( rightly ) limits to the tolerance that immigrant communities have the right to expect when transferring ‘their’ culture to our country.While it’s bleedin hypocritical of them ( and the bleeding heart Socialists ) to expect more tolerance from others than that which they are willing to show others in return.
There are limits, but what some people are saying is that the limit is zero! Zero tolerance - you either swallow every demand that any “indigenous” Brit may make, or leave the country (back to an imaginary homeland for those who’ve never been out of Britain).
As for curry restaurants being vandalised in the 1970’s no I don’t remember that.But I do remember naively and innocently getting caught up in one of the regular inter ethnic flare ups involving Asians v both each other and the indigenous community while attending college in the Hounslow area as part of my job in Feltham.Only escaping,some of the even sword wielding nutters, having been warned by workmates of the impending danger with them,unlike myself,having the luxury of having grown up and living in the place.Unlike myself and one or two others only knowing life growing up and living in the indigenous heartlands of the Surrey Greater London border.
And you attribute all this to an excess of tolerance?
As for a woman’s place being in the home.No surprise that you’d prefer the Red Army idea of putting them into front line armed service duty instead.While no doubt ignoring the idea of women first off a sinking ship in favour of gender equality.
Or perhaps I’m just in favour of women’s choice, and perhaps a better idea of “children and primary caregiver first off” (the reality in the past being that it was mostly the wealthy off first whilst the liner owners skimped on lifeboats).
On that note remind us what EU membership gender equality did for women’s pension rights here.
It certainly didn’t force the UK government to raise the unified pension age toward 70 and beyond, that’s for sure.
Ironically the logical conclusion of tolerance of different immigrant cultures is as I’ve said small limited immigrant enclaves not the Socialist bs idea of integration.IE you’re contradicting yourself in that apartheid is the logical solution not the problem.Which naturally sorts itself out along those lines anyway in both the form of different ethnic groups congregating among their own and indigenous flight.Contrary to the Socialist ethos neither of those examples being ‘racist’ in fact quite the opposite in being the definition of ‘tolerance’.As I said which just leaves the question of limits regarding numbers and jut how far we’re willing to allow those enclaves to go in pushing the boundaries of local culture and laws.Eating dogs and inhumane slaughter of animals obviously being off the table.Limiting numbers,to a level which stops foreign ethnic majority demographic and as a result such enclaves going for self determination and electoral representation,based on foreign ethnic lines, also being part of those limits.As for the definition of ethnic homeland that would depend on the question is Cliff Richard English or is he Indian.
As for inter ethnic tensions as I said that’s got nothing to do with tolerance but allowing numbers to reach the point where the immigrant communities start going for self determination along the human condition of territorial lines.
As for women’s equality as I’ve said I don’t regard making women part of the industrial wealth creating machine let alone on front line military service,an advance in civilisation.More like the total opposite.
As for rich men first off the sinking ship and working class women left to go down with it.We obviously wouldn’t ever have fixed that by going for the Socialist ideal of gender equality in either case.
My parents both voted to remain which in the case of my Dad (retired driver) surprised me. I reminded him of all the crap like the DCPC etc he had to do before retiring but he said “I’m not bothered anymore, I’m retired.” He was voting to keep his EHIC card to make his holidays less hassle. Another ex colleague who’s nearing retirement voted to stay, as he was worried about pensions. He also used to bemoan about all the EU driving regulations but has changed priorities as retirement draws near.
My mums’ observation to me on voting leave was “well you don’t like foreigners.”
Winseer:
…Unless Gove has been May’s stooge all along… Word is that Theresa May is “lending voters” to Gove to make sure he comes second in the ballot to decide the last two.
You sir may be closer than you think! If Gove was the arch Brexit strategist that he’s made out to be he would, by now, have jacked it in and backed Leadsom, thereby securing a place in her cabinet and lead negotiator at the Brexit table. But he’s carrying on to get a job he doesn’t want, against a woman (May) he knows he won’t beat. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was hatched before the referendum result by all concerned to make sure Remain had control of the negotiations.
The reaction of Liam Fox, in supporting May after his defeat, suggests this conspiracy goes a little deeper. It will be interesting to see how many votes Leadsom (66) and Gove (48) get this afternoon as both Fox and Crabbe have supported May so the numbers should be very similar. But the Tories do underhand conniving and deceit so much better than any other party the result could be anything.
Carryfast:
In an ideal world we’d all be friends and could share evereything and everywhere on earth would be like Switzerland.
:
Ah. Newsflash. CF reveals his true belief in a bs socialist utopia world without borders.
Meanwhile I spent yesterday shouting Eid Mubarak at anyone I drove past that looked foreign because I am a bolshevik like that and just because I thought it would annoy Tommyt and Desypete. [emoji3]
Carryfast:
The-Snowman:
How the hell did it get from a knocked back application for a butchers shop to whether we would eat a jack russell and chips?
Blimey you’re a bit behind it went from dog burgers to cannibalism after that.In addition to women serving on front line service in Rjan’s Red Guards regiment.
Bloody hell. This forum can be amazing at times.
You go out for a couple of hours and a thread has changed beyond all recognition within two pages
Stanley Knife:
Winseer:
…Unless Gove has been May’s stooge all along… Word is that Theresa May is “lending voters” to Gove to make sure he comes second in the ballot to decide the last two.You sir may be closer than you think! If Gove was the arch Brexit strategist that he’s made out to be he would, by now, have jacked it in and backed Leadsom, thereby securing a place in her cabinet and lead negotiator at the Brexit table. But he’s carrying on to get a job he doesn’t want, against a woman (May) he knows he won’t beat. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was hatched before the referendum result by all concerned to make sure Remain had control of the negotiations.
The reaction of Liam Fox, in supporting May after his defeat, suggests this conspiracy goes a little deeper. It will be interesting to see how many votes Leadsom (66) and Gove (48) get this afternoon as both Fox and Crabbe have supported May so the numbers should be very similar. But the Tories do underhand conniving and deceit so much better than any other party the result could be anything.
It would be a terrible travesty if the Remainers got to hijack Brexit, and then kick it into the long grass, making sure it never happens. The lack of actually “admitting” that is what they wish to do - will also keep “uncertainty” going forever, so we end up getting all the downsides of Brexit - with none of the upsides. Even if Remain got all their own way - anything going wrong would continue to be blamed upon Brexit, and not the upheaval caused by the hijacking process. May would be safely in power until 2020, and then as unremovable as Thatcher. 
OR there are enough MPs who can see this coming - and torpedo any support they had for Gove this afternoon, so May’s “loaned votes” don’t get him past Leadsom’s poll. Fingers crossed then! 
Winseer:
Stanley Knife:
Winseer:
…Unless Gove has been May’s stooge all along… Word is that Theresa May is “lending voters” to Gove to make sure he comes second in the ballot to decide the last two.You sir may be closer than you think! If Gove was the arch Brexit strategist that he’s made out to be he would, by now, have jacked it in and backed Leadsom, thereby securing a place in her cabinet and lead negotiator at the Brexit table. But he’s carrying on to get a job he doesn’t want, against a woman (May) he knows he won’t beat. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was hatched before the referendum result by all concerned to make sure Remain had control of the negotiations.
The reaction of Liam Fox, in supporting May after his defeat, suggests this conspiracy goes a little deeper. It will be interesting to see how many votes Leadsom (66) and Gove (48) get this afternoon as both Fox and Crabbe have supported May so the numbers should be very similar. But the Tories do underhand conniving and deceit so much better than any other party the result could be anything.
It would be a terrible travesty if the Remainers got to hijack Brexit, and then kick it into the long grass, making sure it never happens. The lack of actually “admitting” that is what they wish to do - will also keep “uncertainty” going forever, so we end up getting all the downsides of Brexit - with none of the upsides. Even if Remain got all their own way - anything going wrong would continue to be blamed upon Brexit, and not the upheaval caused by the hijacking process. May would be safely in power until 2020, and then as unremovable as Thatcher.
OR there are enough MPs who can see this coming - and torpedo any support they had for Gove this afternoon, so May’s “loaned votes” don’t get him past Leadsom’s poll. Fingers crossed then!
And the leavers would just accept this lack of democracy without a fuss? May and the tories would be removed from office certainly at the next GE If not before
tommy t:
And the leavers would just accept this lack of democracy without a fuss?
The irony being that if the vote is reversed to stay in the EU, the remainers would be all happy and then demand that this is an end to it, there can be no more debating or protests about it and it needs to be put to bed so we can move forward!
tommy t:
May and the tories would be removed from office certainly at the next GE If not before
Dont bet on it. The difference between leave/remain was small in the grand scheme of things but it was one vote per person. Due to the way our election process works, the amount of people who would probably still vote tory will mean they may/probably will still get elected
The-Snowman:
tommy t:
And the leavers would just accept this lack of democracy without a fuss?The irony being that if the vote is reversed to stay in the EU, the remainers would be all happy and then demand that this is an end to it, there can be no more debating or protests about it and it needs to be put to bed so we can move forward!
tommy t:
May and the tories would be removed from office certainly at the next GE If not beforeDont bet on it. The difference between leave/remain was small in the grand scheme of things but it was one vote per person. Due to the way our election process works, the amount of people who would probably still vote tory will mean they may/probably will still get elected
Then a decent opposition is needed to give people a reason to bother to vote, after all it’s due to the lack of votes why the tory scum got in last year, they weren’t voted in by the masses
Muckaway:
My parents both voted to remain which in the case of my Dad (retired driver) surprised me. I reminded him of all the crap like the DCPC etc he had to do before retiring but he said “I’m not bothered anymore, I’m retired.” He was voting to keep his EHIC card to make his holidays less hassle. Another ex colleague who’s nearing retirement voted to stay, as he was worried about pensions. He also used to bemoan about all the EU driving regulations but has changed priorities as retirement draws near.
My mums’ observation to me on voting leave was “well you don’t like foreigners.”
that is all that mattered to a lot of people who voted to remain is cheap holidays or there chance to sell up there council house make a few quid and move out to the sun.
there the only generation that can do this as the rest of the country will have to work till there 67 on low wages and sod all in the way of retirement.
we really do need a workers movement with some teeth in this country, its good to see the drs unite even going against there own union and wishing to reject the offer and prepared to carry on with the strikes should it have to come to it
how i wish the drivers in this country had just one ounce of back bone like the drs have
but anyway first things first and at least the vote to shut the doors is a starting point to hopefully huge changes to come for the workers of this country.
Looooo:
Carryfast:
In an ideal world we’d all be friends and could share evereything and everywhere on earth would be like Switzerland.
:Ah. Newsflash. CF reveals his true belief in a bs socialist utopia world without borders.
Meanwhile I spent yesterday shouting Eid Mubarak at anyone I drove past that looked foreign because I am a bolshevik like that and just because I thought it would annoy Tommyt and Desypete. [emoji3]
you should go around shouting pork chop and chips and save our butchers if you wish to protest in such a way ?
Coup defeated? Labour rebels back down fearing party split as Corbyn refuses to go - reports — RT UK News You couldn’t make it up what is wrong with that moron?
desypete:
Looooo:
Carryfast:
In an ideal world we’d all be friends and could share evereything and everywhere on earth would be like Switzerland.
:Ah. Newsflash. CF reveals his true belief in a bs socialist utopia world without borders.
Meanwhile I spent yesterday shouting Eid Mubarak at anyone I drove past that looked foreign because I am a bolshevik like that and just because I thought it would annoy Tommyt and Desypete. [emoji3]
you should go around shouting pork chop and chips and save our butchers if you wish to protest in such a way ?
or god doesn’t exist
Carryfast:
In an ideal world we’d all be friends and could share evereything and everywhere on earth would be like Switzerland.Unfortunately it ain’t ever going to be an ideal world.
They say that’s a fundamental difference between socialism and fascism - both are realistic about the world we have, but socialists have hope it can be changed for the better, whilst fascists do not and say we better get on with dog eat dog. We tried both in the 20th century, and have found it can be changed for the better, and that dog does not have to eat dog.
In fact the only time that it does become dog eat dog, is when people become convinced (contrary to the larger body of human experience) that it’s the only way, and yet it is obvious that it’s no life for anyone. SS guards shooting adults, children, even babies in the head and hauling them into pits, what sort of life is that, even for the shooter who has all the power and privilege? And the victims weren’t all Jewish, as I’ve said the concentration camps contained German radicals, trade union leaders and shop stewards, not to mention petty criminals, the mentally ill and disabled, and Nazis who fell from favour - and many might be there on mere suspicion or without trial.
After spending their day doing that, they couldn’t go home and enjoy their wives and children, their friends and neighbours, in the same way as those who have never had to shoot children. Like EvilBeezle with dogs, they don’t know whether they’re looking at friend or food, their potential to feel the good in life becomes dulled and conditional.
Many at the forefront became heavy drinkers, wife-beaters, and mentally ill themselves, and it is said that a main reason they came up with gas showers and dead body ovens was to shield the guards from the full horror of their acts. Only a handful of the bravest soldiers refused outright to be involved.
Nature gave some of us a better deal regards fertile land and water and know how in how to use it to our best advantage.
Quite, and the issue is how we define our in-group.
Nature also made us like every other living creature in which we have to compete for our existence and conserve what we’ve got for our own tribes/nations not give it all away to every one else.
No, we don’t need to compete except to the extent, and on the issues, that we choose to compete. Competing over who will lead a group, for example, is completely different from competing over who will shoot and who will be shot - in the former, even the losers benefit from great leadership, in the latter it’s a war of all against all.
Nor over populating the place to a level where we out run our resources or destroy the quality of life being part of that.
Malthusian nonsense. Runaway competition is actually the primary cause of ecological destruction. Common land prior to enclosure had supported villages for centuries, only when people were bidding to maximise profits in new marketplaces and the masses were clambering to avoid penury, did over-exploitation become an issue.
In addition to recognising that nature put different cultures and ethnic groups on different parts of the planet for a reason.Ironically Switzerland proving that we don’t have to get involved in unnecessary wars or open our borders to the world’s less fortunate in that regard.
It goes along the lines the world owes no one a living and each to their own ( cultures and homelands ) regardless of the deal nature dealt us by accident of birth in where we happen to be and end up on the planet.The choice being do we then allow the bleeding heart idealists to destroy western Europe in that regard or do we stop them before they manage to do it.
I go along the lines that we owe everyone a living. Your vision for Western Europe is the short, nasty, brutish life.
Carryfast:
Ironically the logical conclusion of tolerance of different immigrant cultures is as I’ve said small limited immigrant enclaves not the Socialist bs idea of integration.
In fact the more communities get on together, the more they are likely to integrate in the end. Also, there is nothing wrong with some diversity - I really don’t care whether other people eat pig meat or not, and I don’t see what bearing that difference could possibly have.
IE you’re contradicting yourself in that apartheid is the logical solution not the problem
Apartheid was separateness imposed on those who wanted to integrate. Mandela wanted to change and integrate, and was denied because of his being black.
Your nationalism is little different - sending people ‘back’ to the other side of the world, because they have a view on where a Glasgow butcher’s shop should go.
As for inter ethnic tensions as I said that’s got nothing to do with tolerance but allowing numbers to reach the point where the immigrant communities start going for self determination along the human condition of territorial lines.
I don’t think it’s “self-determination” they’re bidding for, it’s just they reach a point where they can defend themselves from relentless attack from the far-right, and fight fire with fire. They’ve probably seen their fathers get bacon butties thrown at them in the street every day and told to ■■■■ off back home, and resolve not to put up with it themselves.
As for women’s equality as I’ve said I don’t regard making women part of the industrial wealth creating machine let alone on front line military service,an advance in civilisation.More like the total opposite.
The advance is that women choose.
As for rich men first off the sinking ship and working class women left to go down with it.We obviously wouldn’t ever have fixed that by going for the Socialist ideal of gender equality in either case.
[/quote]
No, we’d have fixed it by having enough lifeboats for all. Remember, they skimped on lifeboats for the Titanic, and then the people who made that decision expected to get off first.
Stanley Knife:
Winseer:
…Unless Gove has been May’s stooge all along… Word is that Theresa May is “lending voters” to Gove to make sure he comes second in the ballot to decide the last two.You sir may be closer than you think! If Gove was the arch Brexit strategist that he’s made out to be he would, by now, have jacked it in and backed Leadsom, thereby securing a place in her cabinet and lead negotiator at the Brexit table. But he’s carrying on to get a job he doesn’t want, against a woman (May) he knows he won’t beat. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was hatched before the referendum result by all concerned to make sure Remain had control of the negotiations.
The reaction of Liam Fox, in supporting May after his defeat, suggests this conspiracy goes a little deeper. It will be interesting to see how many votes Leadsom (66) and Gove (48) get this afternoon as both Fox and Crabbe have supported May so the numbers should be very similar. But the Tories do underhand conniving and deceit so much better than any other party the result could be anything.
Where and how do you reach the conclusion that Loathsome is a Leaver not a remainer. 
Who at best will just stitch us up with swapping EU for EEA just like May.
express.co.uk/news/uk/685698 … e-politics
It’s obvious that the whole plan of sidelining GO in favour of bsers like Boris and Gove was just an insurance policy for the unlikely event that Cameron lost the referendum.
The real question in all this being how could Farage have possibly not foreseen all this and instructed UKIP voters to vote remain.Thereby keeping UKIP alive in the EU parliament under it’s more favourable PR voting system.Then build bridges with the AfD and FN and Austrian Freedom etc to turn the EU into a Confederal system as opposed to Federal thereby giving the National MEP groups supremacy over the decision making system.
