In or out of EU ? Poll

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

Sir Nigel Sheinwald, one of the report’s authors, who served as the UK’s permanent representative to the EU in Brussels between 2000-03, told the Guardian: “Outside the EU we would be worse off. I don’t think any of us are saying we would never get a deal with these countries. I just think we would be at the back of the queue and it would take a long time.”

The report, also written by Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Hannay of Chiswick, found that:

UK exports to South Korea have increased by 104%, worth £3.7bn, since the EU-South Korea free trade agreement came into force in 2011. UK exports to Canada have increased by 29%, the equivalent of £2.3bn a year, since a free trade deal was signed between the EU and Canada in 2013.
No European country outside the EU has been able to negotiate a trade deal to give it access to the EU’s single market on the same, or better, basis as that enjoyed by EU members.
UK trade outside the EU is growing. But 45% of the UK’s goods and services exports still go to the EU compared with 8.5% to the emerging Bric countries of Brazil, Russia, India and China.
As EU countries sell only 6% of their goods to the UK, Britain would have a weaker hand in negotiating a trade deal with the EU as an outsider.

theguardian.com/politics/201 … ampaigners

P.S. Some of you talked about trade war, “good luck” with that.

62

I am all for out, you guys arguing the European facts and should take a look at TTIP and add that into the mix, it’s scary where this is going.
We are losing our independence just to ■■■■ up to politicians and their ilk, if we pull out of EU we might have to back track and slow down but if we buy British and lose the cheap crap import it would come back around, because it would have to, I for one would prefer a less materialistic life if it meant saving my country from globalisation and the ruins it brings with it.

63

Dolph:
Sir Nigel Sheinwald, one of the report’s authors, who served as the UK’s permanent representative to the EU in Brussels between 2000-03, told the Guardian: “Outside the EU we would be worse off. I don’t think any of us are saying we would never get a deal with these countries. I just think we would be at the back of the queue and it would take a long time.”

The report, also written by Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Hannay of Chiswick, found that:

UK exports to South Korea have increased by 104%, worth £3.7bn, since the EU-South Korea free trade agreement came into force in 2011. UK exports to Canada have increased by 29%, the equivalent of £2.3bn a year, since a free trade deal was signed between the EU and Canada in 2013.
No European country outside the EU has been able to negotiate a trade deal to give it access to the EU’s single market on the same, or better, basis as that enjoyed by EU members.
UK trade outside the EU is growing. But 45% of the UK’s goods and services exports still go to the EU compared with 8.5% to the emerging Bric countries of Brazil, Russia, India and China.
As EU countries sell only 6% of their goods to the UK, Britain would have a weaker hand in negotiating a trade deal with the EU as an outsider.

theguardian.com/politics/201 … ampaigners

P.S. Some of you talked about trade war, “good luck” with that.

Meanwhile all of those ‘advantages’ combined are more than wiped out by our trade deficit with Germany alone.Which stood at 17 billion Euro as of 2012.With the pro EU propaganda bs trying to put a positive spin on it by saying it had ‘narrowed slightly’ and a ‘sign that trade was becoming better balanced’.If that’s the pro EU agenda idea of balance who needs a deficit. :unamused:

On that note yes a trade war with the EU is just what this country needs in re claiming it’s domestic market back from ze Germans.Let alone saving of our net contributions which the EU are ripping us off for for the privilege of propping up the German economy.As for Korea that figure is at the net cost of a £ 1 billion + trade deficit. :unamused:

telegraph.co.uk/finance/news … epens.html

64

CHAINSAW:
I for one would prefer a less materialistic life if it meant saving my country from globalisation and the ruins it brings with it.

The idea is to re align trade policy to that of more self sufficiency and less imports to ■■■■■ our trade deficit.In which case it isn’t a case of less materialistic.It’s all about making it here instead of importing it.With the win win situation of more demand for labour and higher incomes. :bulb: :wink:

65

Re-establishing trade routes elsewhere is NOT the “end of history” - and should not be touted as such.

Britain and the EU are not going to cease trading with each other - any more than Iceland’s trade had to be any more than “reset” after the banking collapse there. It seems we should actually look TO iceland as to what THEY did to get out of their own troubles. Their bankers have been jailed, the currency has been sucessfully re-floated, the national debt has been defaulted - so it is gone, and they are currently building a massive deep-water container port that will service vessels moving across newly proposed trade routes across the artic ocean - fast becoming open sea.
The far east across the top? - VERY progressive indeed!

We should get away from this mentality that “Any change from our own broken systems - represents a jump into even worse situations”.

66

Winseer:
Re-establishing trade routes elsewhere is NOT the “end of history” - and should not be touted as such.

Britain and the EU are not going to cease trading with each other - any more than Iceland’s trade had to be any more than “reset” after the banking collapse there. It seems we should actually look TO iceland as to what THEY did to get out of their own troubles. Their bankers have been jailed, the currency has been sucessfully re-floated, the national debt has been defaulted - so it is gone, and they are currently building a massive deep-water container port that will service vessels moving across newly proposed trade routes across the artic ocean - fast becoming open sea.
The far east across the top? - VERY progressive indeed!

We should get away from this mentality that “Any change from our own broken systems - represents a jump into even worse situations”.

Jumping out of the frying pan of being ripped off and ruled by Germany into the fire of being ripped off and ruled by China isn’t exactly the definition of ‘progressive’.

On that note I don’t think that China will be so ‘accommodating’ if/when Iceland tries to default on the debts run up by it’s far East trade deficit,by trying to stop the Chinese taking payment in the form of Icelands fish stocks and money earn’t from geothermal power. :unamused:

67

Carryfast:

CHAINSAW:
I for one would prefer a less materialistic life if it meant saving my country from globalisation and the ruins it brings with it.

The idea is to re align trade policy to that of more self sufficiency and less imports to ■■■■■ our trade deficit.In which case it isn’t a case of less materialistic.It’s all about making it here instead of importing it.With the win win situation of more demand for labour and higher incomes. :bulb: :wink:

I agree with you :slight_smile:

68

Winseer:
Re-establishing trade routes elsewhere is NOT the “end of history” - and should not be touted as such.

Britain and the EU are not going to cease trading with each other - any more than Iceland’s trade had to be any more than “reset” after the banking collapse there. It seems we should actually look TO iceland as to what THEY did to get out of their own troubles. Their bankers have been jailed, the currency has been sucessfully re-floated, the national debt has been defaulted - so it is gone, and they are currently building a massive deep-water container port that will service vessels moving across newly proposed trade routes across the artic ocean - fast becoming open sea.
The far east across the top? - VERY progressive indeed!

We should get away from this mentality that “Any change from our own broken systems - represents a jump into even worse situations”.

Totally agree

69

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Re-establishing trade routes elsewhere is NOT the “end of history” - and should not be touted as such.

Britain and the EU are not going to cease trading with each other - any more than Iceland’s trade had to be any more than “reset” after the banking collapse there. It seems we should actually look TO iceland as to what THEY did to get out of their own troubles. Their bankers have been jailed, the currency has been sucessfully re-floated, the national debt has been defaulted - so it is gone, and they are currently building a massive deep-water container port that will service vessels moving across newly proposed trade routes across the artic ocean - fast becoming open sea.
The far east across the top? - VERY progressive indeed!

We should get away from this mentality that “Any change from our own broken systems - represents a jump into even worse situations”.

Jumping out of the frying pan of being ripped off and ruled by Germany into the fire of being ripped off and ruled by China isn’t exactly the definition of ‘progressive’.

On that note I don’t think that China will be so ‘accommodating’ if/when Iceland tries to default on the debts run up by it’s far East trade deficit,by trying to stop the Chinese taking payment in the form of Icelands fish stocks and money earn’t from geothermal power. :unamused:

http://www.seatrade-maritime.com/news/europe/iceland-to-build-new-arctic-port.html

I believe Bremenports is German rather than Chinese. It seems as if Germany is going to be part of the solution here, now that default has already taken place - rather than part of the ongoing problem with this “All debts must be paid even if it means a century of Austerity”. Icelandic citizens, to their credit, have said “■■■■■■■■” to the banks, jailed the bankers, and done their own thing - and so far at least, it appears to be working.

If the UK defaulted it’s national debt - we’d not be able to borrow any further money for a very long time. This would FORCE us to live within our means. Any attempt to print money would push interests rates up to a sky-high level. Those who want an interest rate hike therefore - might want to consider that swinging their support behind the “Leave EU” campagin then. Seeing as the worst possible result of leaving the EU is that we’ll default, and have to raise interest rates sharply!

70

Winseer:

Carryfast:
Jumping out of the frying pan of being ripped off and ruled by Germany into the fire of being ripped off and ruled by China isn’t exactly the definition of ‘progressive’.

On that note I don’t think that China will be so ‘accommodating’ if/when Iceland tries to default on the debts run up by it’s far East trade deficit,by trying to stop the Chinese taking payment in the form of Icelands fish stocks and money earn’t from geothermal power. :unamused:

Iceland to build new Arctic port | Seatrade Maritime

I believe Bremenports is German rather than Chinese. It seems as if Germany is going to be part of the solution here, now that default has already taken place - rather than part of the ongoing problem with this “All debts must be paid even if it means a century of Austerity”. Icelandic citizens, to their credit, have said “■■■■■■■■” to the banks, jailed the bankers, and done their own thing - and so far at least, it appears to be working.

If the UK defaulted it’s national debt - we’d not be able to borrow any further money for a very long time. This would FORCE us to live within our means. Any attempt to print money would push interests rates up to a sky-high level. Those who want an interest rate hike therefore - might want to consider that swinging their support behind the “Leave EU” campagin then. Seeing as the worst possible result of leaving the EU is that we’ll default, and have to raise interest rates sharply!

It’s obvious that all the links between the far East and Europe are just a case of adding yet more to the net import bill and resulting trade deficit.The common link between Iceland,Greece,and Ireland being that they’ve got an even less industrial base to at least help to limit the damage in that regard.IE they are all one trick ponies of mostly fishing and cheap domestic energy in the case of Iceland,shipping in the case of Greece,and agriculture in the case of Ireland.

On that note it’s obvious that the difference in the trade deficit has to be found from somewhere and that’s the reason for the debts.As it stands one way or another we’re being ripped off to sustain Germany’s and now even moreso China’s export ( dumping ) based economies.With at least China turning that into military power so eventually it can dictate the ‘terms’ of the deal to the point where it just takes what it wants from its ‘trading partners’ as ‘payment’. :unamused:

Bearing in mind all the above as I said staying with the EU or ditching it in favour of the global free market economy is a case of the choice between execution by firing squad or the electric chair.When what’s needed is the realisation that so called ‘trade’,in the form of exporting what we need for ourselves,to pay for stuff that we don’t even need,has turned into a nightmare that threatens the country’s economic let alone national security.That applies wether it is the EU or the global free market economy and wether it’s Greece,Iceland or even the USA. :bulb:

71

If this country makes little from it’s manufacturing industry, loads from it’s service sector, little from trade with the EU (big volume, but small margins) and loads from it’s “rest of the world” trade (lower volume, but big margins) - then whatever way you look at it - we’re better off even “trying” to leave, as only by actually re-raising the EU on the issue of “we want out” can we ever hope to get a seriously decent concession offered at the 11th hour - IF we vote to “leave”.

If we just say “Shaft it to us, and next time we’ll pay for our own vaseline” all the time… Then we’ll no doubt receive it in abundance. :imp:

The EU at present is like a pro poker player crushing a novice player - who won’t bet all-in without the nuts - ever. When they finally get the cards they want - the pro player knows that the idiot isn’t capable of bluffing effectively - and gets away with minimum damage every time.

We’re never going to outdraw the EU - unless we lose our fear of the consequences of calling their bluff with what we actually have - rather than what we’d like to have - but will never be in the game long enough to actually receive in time. :bulb:

72

Winseer:
If this country makes little from it’s manufacturing industry, loads from it’s service sector, little from trade with the EU (big volume, but small margins) and loads from it’s “rest of the world” trade (lower volume, but big margins) - then whatever way you look at it - we’re better off even “trying” to leave, as only by actually re-raising the EU on the issue of “we want out” can we ever hope to get a seriously decent concession offered at the 11th hour - IF we vote to “leave”.

If we just say “Shaft it to us, and next time we’ll pay for our own vaseline” all the time… Then we’ll no doubt receive it in abundance. :imp:

The EU at present is like a pro poker player crushing a novice player - who won’t bet all-in without the nuts - ever. When they finally get the cards they want - the pro player knows that the idiot isn’t capable of bluffing effectively - and gets away with minimum damage every time.

We’re never going to outdraw the EU - unless we lose our fear of the consequences of calling their bluff with what we actually have - rather than what we’d like to have - but will never be in the game long enough to actually receive in time. :bulb:

The analogy is more along the lines of us being led by a bunch of no hopers with a gambling addiction who at best aren’t even bright enough to know that the game they are in is rigged against them anyway.Or at worse are using what’s left of the nation’s economy to bet on a game which they know is rigged in the knowledge that they’ll get a personal kick back out of the lost stake money.On that note we don’t need some better players.We actually need to get out of the game which in this case means both the global free market economy and the EU.

Bearing in mind that the ‘money’ which changes hands for storing and retailing imported goods,or serving customers in a fast food outlet etc etc won’t pay for imported goods.That can only be paid for by exporting goods to the same value.Or making up any deficit by handing over the country’s assets.

Which in this case logically means real estate and infrastructure and food supplies into Chinese ownership all in exchange for a load of cheaply made manufactured crap that we could have made better for ourselves.While to add insult to injury also effectively being governed by a bunch of Socialists like Merkel and/or the Chinese Communist Party. :imp: :unamused:

73

Even the main parties in this country have not the slightest clue how to play the “World Class Statecraft Game” - aka “Real-Life Game of Thrones”.
If they DID - we would have formed stronger ties with Scandinavia and loosened ties with the Balkans and Middle east in the meantime.

If we’d gone through the motions of “setting up more trade with non-EU countries” then the EU might have taken fright a bit at the “forthcoming” referendum - and start offering us consessions already.
NOT doing that is like the novice poker player who is always thinking his hand is weak - merely because it’s not the “Best possible” - and won’t bet it or call an all-in with it.

Thing is, if we DID “re-raise the EU” in all this - the AMERICANS would start to bully the EU rather than the UK over the extended issue of “NATO”… “Look you Euro guys need to bend over backwards to keep the UK in NATO - Let them go, and we’ll close down our bases that protect you (bluff)” leaving the entire Eastern corridor re-open to Iron Curtain annexation (alarmist bluff)" …You get the picture.

Make your next move about shifting all liability onto your opponent to make any “bad decision” that might get made. One should have already put the ball firmly back in their court.
Cameron can still actually DO that by giving a closing date for negotiations that’s very soon, and declaring that “If he’s got nowhere” - then he’ll move the referndum date to “quite soon plus one month to set up” as well. :smiling_imp:

Technically speaking, all other options are lickcock options - and don’t warrant looking at.

74

Winseer:
Even the main parties in this country have not the slightest clue how to play the “World Class Statecraft Game” - aka “Real-Life Game of Thrones”.
If they DID - we would have formed stronger ties with Scandinavia and loosened ties with the Balkans and Middle east in the meantime.

If we’d gone through the motions of “setting up more trade with non-EU countries” then the EU might have taken fright a bit at the “forthcoming” referendum - and start offering us consessions already.
NOT doing that is like the novice poker player who is always thinking his hand is weak - merely because it’s not the “Best possible” - and won’t bet it or call an all-in with it.

Thing is, if we DID “re-raise the EU” in all this - the AMERICANS would start to bully the EU rather than the UK over the extended issue of “NATO”… “Look you Euro guys need to bend over backwards to keep the UK in NATO - Let them go, and we’ll close down our bases that protect you (bluff)” leaving the entire Eastern corridor re-open to Iron Curtain annexation (alarmist bluff)" …You get the picture.

Make your next move about shifting all liability onto your opponent to make any “bad decision” that might get made. One should have already put the ball firmly back in their court.
Cameron can still actually DO that by giving a closing date for negotiations that’s very soon, and declaring that “If he’s got nowhere” - then he’ll move the referndum date to “quite soon plus one month to set up” as well. :smiling_imp:

Technically speaking, all other options are lickcock options - and don’t warrant looking at.

Our pre 1973 position shows that there is no link between being a part of NATO and being an EU member.

The problem with the USA being that it is a Federalist based government that killed more than a million of it’s own people ( by 1860’s overall population standards :open_mouth: ) to that end.As such it doesn’t like the idea of the small sovereign nation states that make/made up Europe,because it views it as a potential threat to the ongoing issue/question of secession and state sovereignty at home. :bulb:

The idea of reducing the issue of Sovereignty v Federalism to a poker game makes no sense.IE there are no stakes to play for.With it being more like the choice of staying in a game of Russian Roulette or walking away quick before we find the wrong chamber.

As for the issue of defence it’s obvious that we really need our own nuclear deterrent thereby removing US control over our defence policy.The really scary bit being that even the nuclear deterrent is at best under the control of the US wether we’re in the EU or out or in NATO or out because there is no way that the US is prepared to take a hit at home for a UK launch.

While at worse our trade policy is just strengthening China’s conventional armed forces to the point where even nuking the zb’s at home would probably just mean an even madder massive force invading us anyway.With the intention of just wiping us out as painfully as possible instead of just taking what they want and enslaving us.

On that note it would be fair to say that the whole mess is the result of US domestic and foreign policy which strengthens our potential enemies while weakening us.

While trying to impose a world system of Federal government and ethnic integration.Which is already falling apart on their own streets and among their own policing departments. :unamused:

75

It’s US (ie. Brits) that should be playing both the EU and USA as a poker game. To THEM - We are merely the chips in THEIR game. :frowning:

Let’s hear stories about “What have the Yanks/Europeans done for us?”

I hear stories myself that only involve “losing” your job if you dare leave the EU or NATO. Where’s the upside to all this?

Has anyone got a cushy job that wouldn’t be there if we carried on trading with the EU - but left it’s Iron grip?
Has anyone been given a well-paid job working for a foreign firm that’s now over here thanks to being in the EU?
(Nobbies/Xbox doesn’t count - until the pay is considered “top of the industry” - as it should be for the money such a giant makes…)

76

David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.
theguardian.com/politics/201 … -eu-reform

P.S. I cant imagine UK outside of EU with politicians like this one. But good luck with the demands…you had 15 years to fix UK benefit system like the rest of us, instead you did nothing and now blame all of its faults to EU. :laughing:

77

Dolph:
David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.
theguardian.com/politics/201 … -eu-reform

P.S. I cant imagine UK outside of EU with politicians like this one. But good luck with the demands…you had 15 years to fix UK benefit system like the rest of us, instead you did nothing and now blame all of its faults to EU. :laughing:

The case against Cameron selling us out to China in or out of the EU doesn’t make the case for being ruled by Merkel and her Socialist cronies instead.They are all as bad as each other. :bulb:

As for it being our ‘benefits’ system being the problem it’s only there as a symptom of our low wage economy that doesn’t provide enough for people to look after themselves.We won’t fix that by continuing to import cheap labour and adding to our population levels by importing no hopers from Africa and Asia and/or exporting jobs to cheap labour economies.On that note good luck with the idea of being ruled by Merkel instead of Cameron. :unamused:

78

Winseer:
It’s US (ie. Brits) that should be playing both the EU and USA as a poker game. To THEM - We are merely the chips in THEIR game. :frowning:

Let’s hear stories about “What have the Yanks/Europeans done for us?”

I hear stories myself that only involve “losing” your job if you dare leave the EU or NATO. Where’s the upside to all this?

Firstly America isn’t even able to look after it’s own interests let alone ours.As for lost jobs the domestic economy in terms of trade figures,employment and GDP,as it stood in 1972,is the benchmark as to what EU membership has ever done for us. :bulb:

79

Carryfast:

Dolph:
David Cameron will issue a dramatic warning to fellow EU leaders this week that he may have to recommend a UK exit from the European Union if they reject his demands for reform.
theguardian.com/politics/201 … -eu-reform

P.S. I cant imagine UK outside of EU with politicians like this one. But good luck with the demands…you had 15 years to fix UK benefit system like the rest of us, instead you did nothing and now blame all of its faults to EU. :laughing:

The case against Cameron selling us out to China in or out of the EU doesn’t make the case for being ruled by Merkel and her Socialist cronies instead.They are all as bad as each other. :bulb:

As for it being our ‘benefits’ system being the problem it’s only there as a symptom of our low wage economy that doesn’t provide enough for people to look after themselves.We won’t fix that by continuing to import cheap labour and/or exporting jobs to cheap labour economies.On that note good luck with the idea of being ruled by Merkel instead of Cameron. :unamused:

If its up to me and have to choose between the two only, I prefer to be ruled by Germans(not Merkel though) instead of Brits(Buckingham palace - House of Lords and so on).
Sorry but Cameron is a joke as politician, he promises one thing and doing exactly the opposite, curbing immigration if he comes in office comes to mined, he did nothing. We are still waiting for his demands what EU should do in order to keep UK into EU, since July he said/wrote absolutely nothing. He will not put in writing his demands.
Merkel will be gone very soon, she is not even liked in her party anymore.

80

Carryfast:

Winseer:
It’s US (ie. Brits) that should be playing both the EU and USA as a poker game. To THEM - We are merely the chips in THEIR game. :frowning:

Let’s hear stories about “What have the Yanks/Europeans done for us?”

I hear stories myself that only involve “losing” your job if you dare leave the EU or NATO. Where’s the upside to all this?

Firstly America isn’t even able to look after it’s own interests let alone ours.As for lost jobs the domestic economy in terms of trade figures,employment and GDP,as it stood in 1972,is the benchmark as to what EU membership has ever done for us. :bulb:

You still live in the 70’s? What you try to achieve by stating the UK - EU relations 40 years ago? The world is changed drastically and you have to take that into consideration, you cant be isolated island on the edge of Europe.