Here’s a thought, when we have to load water filled IBC containers on our training vehicles later this year how will they perform in extreme cold conditions with the threat of the water freezing and consequently splitting the containers, any thoughts?
a few big bags of salt should sort that 
I think I’d check with the DSA to see whether it would be acceptable to add a little anti-freeze to the water.
Knowing the DSA, I think I’d do that by email rather than by phone.
If they don’t go for that, then gonzothejaffa1’s salt idea might work.
Hang on… it’s the DSA and maybe they’ll be err… mmm… not receptive to a sensible idea, so another plan might be to allow sufficient ullage space in the IBCs to take care of any expansion of the water.
Got to be honest - it would have to be a hell of a frost to completely freeze 1000 ltr of water - let’s hope it doesn’t get that bad, is there a certain amount of anti freeze that then becomes hazardous cargo?? ( not being stupid just don’t know)
John
I honestly believe bulk bag sand would be a better and safer option in all vehicles.
Regarding the freezing of the water only in the IBC’s it would only take a little bit of ice to fracture an IBC if they were full to the top.
TBH I was talking to North Yorkshire Fire training department today who raised this issue.
Paul
blogs.howstuffworks.com/2010/04/ … hen-frozen
Just googled water expansion and found this link, if it opens watch the experiment. Very interesting results.
I wonder if the DSA have taken technical advice on water expansion?
elmet training:
I honestly believe bulk bag sand would be a better and safer option in all vehicles.Regarding the freezing of the water only in the IBC’s it would only take a little bit of ice to fracture an IBC if they were full to the top.
TBH I was talking to North Yorkshire Fire training department today who raised this issue.
Paul
I would of thought that the ullage space in the ibc would be sufficient to cope with the expansion of the water if it was to freeze
chevmac:
Got to be honest - it would have to be a hell of a frost to completely freeze 1000 ltr of water - let’s hope it doesn’t get that bad, is there a certain amount of anti freeze that then becomes hazardous cargo?? ( not being stupid just don’t know)John
Hi John,
No mate, normal anti-freeze is not regarded as dangerous goods, even in its neat undiluted form as sold in the shops.
We use IBC’s of water for vehicle MOTs. Not sure whether that’s the only thing you’re allowed to use or not. Either way. There’s space in the top of all ours, presumably in case of freezing. Don’t know if there’s any anti freeze in them or not.
elmet training:
I honestly believe bulk bag sand would be a better and safer option in all vehicles.
How about cutting a large hole in the top of an IBC and filling that with sand?
Bulk bags of sand are a pain in the neck to secure.
IBCs of water (with antifreeze or not) with a decent amount of ullage means the water sloshes around in your IBCs. Not a problem for you, but as you’re Elmet Training I expect you do driver training. A trainee driver would probably find a moving load, which will move enough to make your wagon ‘shimmy’ at traffic lights for eg, very unsettling.
I’ve just driven up from Basel with a mixed load, including 10t of fluid in IBCs. That was enough to make a fully freighted artic ‘shimmy’ at the lights and I could feel it shift on roundabouts etc. Nowhere near as bad as a big single-pot slurry tank does, but definitely noticeable.
Regarding the freezing of the water only in the IBC’s it would only take a little bit of ice to fracture an IBC if they were full to the top.
A bit of useless (or maybe not after all) information I picked up many, many years ago.
At -1 degree C, water turning to ice can create pressure of 1,500 psi, more than enough to rupture an IBC, that’s for sure
I was quite impressed by that, which is why I remember it 
(It’s probably ■■■■■■■■ btw. 
)
Fill 'em with Vodka, then if they fail at least they can drown their sorrows ! & when they pass, they can celebrate !
& it won’t freeze.
Can’t see why they don’t use concrete blocks like at the test station. Easy to strap down and no sloshing load.
dieseldave:
chevmac:
Got to be honest - it would have to be a hell of a frost to completely freeze 1000 ltr of water - let’s hope it doesn’t get that bad, is there a certain amount of anti freeze that then becomes hazardous cargo?? ( not being stupid just don’t know)John
Hi John,
No mate, normal anti-freeze is not regarded as dangerous goods, even in its neat undiluted form as sold in the shops.
Cheers DD -that’s why you do ADR and we do on road training
John
If you’re patient or can get them filled from a chute or hopper, IBCs can be filled with sand through the top.
But it’s clear from the rules that they must be filled with water. Sand is permitted in small trailers (eg BE)
Pete
Peter Smythe:
But it’s clear from the rules that they must be filled with water. Sand is permitted in small trailers (eg BE)Pete
Ahaa!! You can probably tell that I haven’t read the rules. 
Sand would be common sense as it’s a ‘dead’ load, and water will slop as Simon has said.
Mind you, common sense and the DSA don’t usually belong in the same sentence.
I reckon this water idea could be quite unnerving for a newbie, but you could always tell them that it’s a handy bit of practice for if they ever drive a tanker. 
Now that it looks like a done deal, I think it’s probably best to ask the DSA about putting some anti-freeze in the water.
I think it’s probably best to ask the DSA about putting some anti-freeze in the water.
IMO, it’s best just to do it!
Pete
Need a lot of anti freeze then. I still daren’t buy the IBC’s yet in case of a change of mind.
elmet training:
Need a lot of anti freeze then. I still daren’t buy the IBC’s yet in case of a change of mind.
If anybody ends up buying some IBCs, they seem cheap here:
Another thought is to contact Sean at EP Training. He was negotiating a deal with a discount for bulk with the IBC’s being delivered direct to each trainer.
Pete