i have a trivia question

tachograph:
So the question is, does compensation have to be attached to the end of a rest period or could it be attached to the start and precede a rest period ?

In the case of a daily rest period and compensation I feel it would indeed have to be in attached to the end of the rest period due to the ‘everything in 24 hours’ rule. If you had 12 hours to compensate I would say you work 15 hours, take 9 hours daily rest as required and then take the 12 hours compensation. Doing 15 hours work, taking the 12 hours compensation and then the 9 hour daily rest would mean the daily rest falling outside the required 24 hour period. Normally it wouldn’t be an issue, during the week for instance the order would be irrelevant, as it would on a weekend at the end of week 2 or 3, you would just take 21 hours rest and if it goes past midnight it isn’t a problem. However on the weekend at the end of ‘week 4’ it would be an issue and the 21 hours, as used in my example, would have to be completed by 24:00 Sunday.

The same sort of situation could arise with the beginning a weekly rest no later than 144 hours after ending the previous one rule. Taking the compensation first could mean the weekly rest commencing beyond the 144 hour limit, again only really an issue if it is the weekend of ‘week 4’.

OK delboytwo, Here’s a scenario:

You are the driver of an rigid curtainsider (18t gvw) carrying the following dangerous goods: UN 1203 PETROL, 3, PGII
There are no other goods of any kind on the vehicle.

The petrol is packaged in:
1 x 200ltr metal drum, and
1 x 100ltr metal drum, and (The drums and labelling are correct and legal.)
1, 500 ltrs packaged in Limited Quantities. (The boxes are on pallets and the labelling is correct and legal.)
The load documentation is correct and legal.

:bulb: TIP: The ADR load limit for petrol is 333ltrs, before the full ADR Regs apply.

Q1. Are orange coloured plates legally required to be shown on the front and rear of the vehicle for this load?

Q2. Does the driver need an ADR licence for this load?

Q3. How many fire extinguishers must be carried on board for this load AS A MINIMUM?

These are trivia questions just for fun, cos really this lot is the boss’ job to tell the driver. :wink:

Hi Dave

here goes

dieseldave:
Q1. Are orange coloured plates legally required to be shown on the front and rear of the vehicle for this load?

yes

dieseldave:
Does the driver need an ADR licence for this load?

no, cos you don’t count the limited quantities there would need awerness training though

dieseldave:
Q3. How many fire extinguishers must be carried on board for this load AS A MINIMUM?

2

delboytwo:
Hi Dave

here goes

dieseldave:
Q1. Are orange coloured plates legally required to be shown on the front and rear of the vehicle for this load?

yes

Hi Del. 'Fraid you got this one wrong mate. (This is linked to the next question. :wink: )

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Does the driver need an ADR licence for this load?

no, cos you don’t count the limited quantities there would need awerness training though

Spot on Del!! :smiley:
The ‘trigger’ for needing the ADR licence is THE SAME as for needing the orange plates. :wink:
You spotted the Limited Quantities red herring- Nice one Del!! :smiley:
Full Regs don’t apply, cos 300ltrs is less than the 333ltrs ‘trigger’ limit and the LQs don’t count at all.
You were also spot-on about the awareness training too. :grimacing: (But no marks, cos it wasn’t asked.)

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Q3. How many fire extinguishers must be carried on board for this load AS A MINIMUM?

2

'Fraid not again Del, the requirement is for one fire-extinguisher (of min size 2kg dry-powder for a ‘below-threshold’ load.)

Total score: 1/3, but don’t forget that they were ‘boss’ type questions. :wink:

Do you fancy another go- double or quits? :smiley:

dieseldave:
Do you fancy another go- double or quits? :smiley:

yes mate if you have the time :laughing:

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Do you fancy another go- double or quits? :smiley:

yes mate if you have the time :laughing:

OK Del, here goes… This time they’re ‘driver’ questions and we’ll keep to the same UN 1203 PETROL, and you’re still driving the same vehicle etc.

In this scenario, your job is to make a delivery from your depot in Brighton directly to a customer’s premises in Birmingham.
The customer has ordered his petrol to be delivered in a single 3,000ltr IBC. (So the Regs apply in full. :wink: )
Again, you have no other goods of any kind on board your vehicle.
The consignor has provided the correct IBC for the job, the IBC is correctly labelled and your load documentation is also correct.
You have your original ADR licence with you, it is valid, and it covers you for Tanks and UN Classes 2,3,4,5,6,8 &9

Q1. What, if any, approval mark(s) are required on the IBC?

Q2. Does your ADR licence (the one above) cover you to drive your vehicle to the destination with that IBC on board?

Q3. What, if any, placards/markings are required to be shown on your vehicle?

I know that you did your ADR quite a while ago, and I’ve stuck to knowledge that hasn’t changed, so there’s no trickery with ‘new’ requirements :wink: :smiley:

Hi Dave just to let you know this is not from memory and i did have a look on the web.

dieseldave:
Q1. What, if any, approval mark(s) are required on the IBC?

first is should have a mark with the letters UN

next should be the type of container IE drum or box, in this case we will say it a drum 1

next would be the material the drum is made of, in this case we will say steel A

then you need to no the category the container falls in so in this case i say non-removable head, 1

than you need the packing group in this case Z

then you need the relative density of the goods we will say 1.2

then you need the test pressure of drum in kPa i do not know what that would be but for this i will say 270

next would be the year of manufacture in this case we will say 02

next would be the country of certification in this case GB

the last bit would be the number of the certificate and as its GB it would be numbers so for this i will say 1234

and this is what it would look like

UN 1A1/Z1.2/270/02/GB/1234

now that was hard hope i got some of it right :stuck_out_tongue:

dieseldave:
Q2. Does your ADR licence (the one above) cover you to drive your vehicle to the destination with that IBC on board?

i will say yes as you have class 3

dieseldave:
Q3. What, if any, placards/markings are required to be shown on your vehicle?

you would need a red triangle with flammable liquids with the class 3 Orange-coloured plates, with hazard-identification number and UN-Number

hope i got some of that right :stuck_out_tongue:

delboytwo:
Hi Dave just to let you know this is not from memory and i did have a look on the web.

Hi delboytwo,

:open_mouth: Blimey, where do I start with this lot? :smiley:
Sorry Del, but you’ve provided a great example of not reading the question, then answering completely irrelevant stuff TWO levels above.
TBF Del, I did say in the question that it was ‘driver’ level and there’s no way you were asked for anything like the answer you gave. :wink:

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Q1. What, if any, approval mark(s) are required on the IBC?

first is should have a mark with the letters UN

next should be the type of container IE drum or box, in this case we will say it a drum 1

The correct answer is the letters “UN” in a circle, that’s it, you’re spot-on so stop right there!!
(No wonder you found it hard :open_mouth: )

delboytwo:
next would be the material the drum is made of, in this case we will say steel A

then you need to no the category the container falls in so in this case i say non-removable head, 1

than you need the packing group in this case Z

then you need the relative density of the goods we will say 1.2

then you need the test pressure of drum in kPa i do not know what that would be but for this i will say 270

next would be the year of manufacture in this case we will say 02

next would be the country of certification in this case GB

the last bit would be the number of the certificate and as its GB it would be numbers so for this i will say 1234

and this is what it would look like

UN 1A1/Z1.2/270/02/GB/1234

now that was hard hope i got some of it right :stuck_out_tongue:

The question related to an IBC, so the code could ONLY start with “31.” :wink:
:bulb: Your methodology was correct in principle, but did you miss the part that says that petrol can’t be carried in a package that has a “Z” in its package code, because it’s in PGII :question: [6.5.2.1.1.(c)]

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Q2. Does your ADR licence (the one above) cover you to drive your vehicle to the destination with that IBC on board?

i will say yes as you have class 3

Sorry Del, you appear to have missed the fact that an IBC is a PACKAGE, so the ADR licence I gave in the scenario wouldn’t cover you. :frowning:

delboytwo:

dieseldave:
Q3. What, if any, placards/markings are required to be shown on your vehicle?

you would need a red triangle with flammable liquids with the class 3 Orange-coloured plates, with hazard-identification number and UN-Number

hope i got some of that right :stuck_out_tongue:

It looks like you’ve carried on with the idea that an IBC counts as a tank, so your answer to Q3 is incorrect.
The only markings required on the vehicle would be two plain orange coloured plates, one on the front and one on the rear.

:bulb: Even if the IBC counted as a tank (it doesn’t,) we don’t use hazard identification numbers (HINs) for UK journeys.
:bulb: Placards (diamonds) are only required on containers for a road journey, not on the tautliner carrying UN Class 3 in a package as in the scenario.
:bulb: I had no idea whether you’d done the tanker module when you took your ADR, so I stayed well away from tanker questions out of fairness to you. :wink:

Again Del, you scored 1/3, but you’ve got me with the way you knew that the IBC was a package (proved by you looking into PACKAGE codes,) but then went on to count it as a kind of tank for vehicle marking and ADR licencing purposes.

The correct answers were this easy:
Q1. = The “UN mark.” (Cos it’s a package.)
Q2. = NO (Cos it’s a package.)
Q3. = Two orange coloured plates. (Cos it’s a package.)

Are we going for extra time/penalty shoot-out? :grimacing:

Hi Dave not doing to well :blush:

yes go on then, or this time make it easy for me,

on a note i think i will need to take my adr again it as been 14 years

just like to ask, so IBC’s are packages and if you don’t have packages on your adr you can’t deliver them :question:

delboytwo:
on a note i think i will need to take my adr again it as been 14 years

Hi delboytwo, If you can get it for free, then I’d suggest that you go for it. If you can’t get the course for free, then you’d probably have to think very carefully about whether it would actually improve your job prospects in your own area before commiting your own cash to it.

delboytwo:
just like to ask, so IBC’s are packages and if you don’t have packages on your adr you can’t deliver them :question:

Correct Del, IBCs are packages mate. :smiley:
Let’s say that you didn’t have a current ADR (as in your case) but you were asked to carry a 1,000ltr IBC that contains Diesel instead of petrol…
You could carry that IBC without an ADR licence, because the ‘trigger’ limit for Diesel is 1,000ltrs. (5 x 200ltr drums would also be OK as an alternative.)
You wouldn’t need orange plates or any kit or equipment other than 1 x 2kg dry powder fire-extinguisher and the awareness training you mentioned earlier.

delboytwo:
yes go on then, or this time make it easy for me,

The last lot was very easy, but you made it hard for yourself and fell into a trap of your own making by going so far off on a tangent. :wink:

:bulb: RTFQ and stick to it. :wink:

OK Del, back to your 18t curtainsider and the fact that you’re carrying enough petrol in packages to be subject to full Regs on a journey from Brighton to London…

This scenario will test your research skills…

Following a break-in at the yard in which all the small loose items of ADR equipment and PPE were stolen from your vehicle, your boss finds out that he/she has lost the office master copy of your ADR driver’s equipment checklist for the vehicle and has asked you to make a new master copy for him/her to keep in the office. The boss needs to replace the stolen kit and equipment, but can’t do so until you come up with the checklist.

To do this, you (only :wink: ) need to list the PPE and general equipment required to be carried on board a vehicle for UN Class 3.

:bulb: Help: :arrow_right: Forget about everything else. Also forget about the fire-extinguishers, because they weren’t stolen and are still fully legal.
:bulb: Help: :arrow_right: Your boss is on a very tight budget and will ONLY buy the barest legal minimum, so no extra items, even if they seem like a good idea.
:bulb: Help: :arrow_right: The vehicles carry no crew, just a lone driver.

:open_mouth: Over to you Del, the job is at a standstill and the clock is ticking. :grimacing:

hi Dave here goes

you will need a tremcard for class 3

which will say ppe needed

Warning vest. Goggles or face shield. Light protective clothing. Protective gloves. Protective footwear. Eyewash bottle with clean water. Suitable respiratory protective device.

plus

at least one chock of a size suited to the weight of the vehicle
and to the diameter of the wheels

Two self-standing warning signs

A suitable warning vest or warning clothing (hi vis)

A pocket lamp

how did i do this time,have i shot my self in the foot

delboytwo:
hi Dave here goes

you will need a tremcard for class 3

which will say ppe needed

Warning vest. Goggles or face shield. Light protective clothing. Protective gloves. Protective footwear. Eyewash bottle with clean water. Suitable respiratory protective device.

plus

at least one chock of a size suited to the weight of the vehicle
and to the diameter of the wheels

Two self-standing warning signs

A suitable warning vest or warning clothing (hi vis)

A pocket lamp

how did i do this time,have i shot my self in the foot

Missed out drain cover mate and protective disposable container

garnerlives:
Missed out drain cover mate and protective disposable container

Hi Jon, your score is 2/3, cos you missed a shovel. :wink: :grimacing:

delboytwo:
hi Dave here goes

you will need a tremcard for class 3

which will say ppe needed

Hi Del, There’s a big clue in my post about the new Instructions In Writing near the bottom of this page just :arrow_right: HERE, THEN FOLLOW THE LINK :wink:
:bulb: It’s just below Wheel Nut’s question about methanol.

delboytwo:
Warning vest.
Goggles or face shield.
Light protective clothing.
Protective gloves.
Protective footwear.
Eyewash bottle with clean water.
Suitable respiratory protective device.
at least one chock of a size suited to the weight of the vehicle
and to the diameter of the wheels
Two self-standing warning signs
A suitable warning vest or warning clothing (hi vis)
A pocket lamp

how did i do this time,have i shot my self in the foot

By my reckoning you scored a respectable 7/10, and you only missed the items newly required in the UK since 01/07/09.
I’ll let you off with a three penalty point deduction for the three unnecessary items in red. (A score of 4/10 wouldn’t look so good. :laughing: :smiley: )
:bulb: Beware of reading/using/believing old info. :wink:

TBF though Del, the firm could make it a company policy to issue you with the other equipment you mentioned (and even more besides) as a result of a risk-assessment for a particular job and there’s never any harm in having more than the minimum requirement. :smiley:

Remembering that we left out the fire-extinguishers, here is the minimum ADR equipment checklist for all regulated vehicles:

  • a wheel chock [= exactly as you mentioned]
  • two self-standing warning signs
  • eye rinsing liquid [= can be eye-wash]
  • a warning vest (Hi-viz)
  • portable lighting apparatus [= can be a pocket lamp]
  • a pair of protective gloves
  • eye protection [= can be goggles or a face shield]

Then you’d also need these items on your checklist for carrying UN Class 3:

  • a shovel
  • a drain seal
  • a collecting container made of plastics.

Hi Dave

thanks for the questions mate really enjoyed that, much appreciated, thank for been honest with you remarks and comments, it the only way to understand where I’ve gone wrong which i not unusual for me. i think my problem is the way i read that sometimes gets me lost, will have to read the posts better before answering the question :stuck_out_tongue:

cheers Dave :slight_smile:

delboytwo:
Hi Dave

thanks for the questions mate really enjoyed that, much appreciated, thank for been honest with you remarks and comments, it the only way to understand where I’ve gone wrong which i not unusual for me. i think my problem is the way i read that sometimes gets me lost, will have to read the posts better before answering the question :stuck_out_tongue:

cheers Dave :slight_smile:

Hi Del,
No need to thank me mate, I enjoyed it too. :smiley:

The good thing is that you’ve learned some up-to-date info, which can never be a bad thing.
If you keep your eye on the ADR sticky, you’ll see some questions and my answers. :wink:

Did you follow the link to the new version of a ‘Tremcard’? If so, what do you think of having one document to cover all dangerous goods?
Very strange after all these years. :open_mouth:

i have deleted this and put in the sticky for dangerous good