Hi people, I will try to keep it brief. I own a tiny company with my wife. Ltd co. We do building surveying. The company recently bought a massive van considering we need minimal equipment & zero goods carriage. The reason for getting the van is because the price was unbelievable. We are taxed on the van benefit as sometimmes we travel as a family socially in the van. The problem is insurance. The Renault Mascott 130.55 x reg 2000 is plated to 5.5t. I can drive upto 7.5t on my C1 standard driving licience catagory. Also this van is simply modified to 3.5t by using spacer blocks on the bump stops plus a VOSA inspection. Currently I am being quoted £5500 per year…Who knows why this is. Its a van I use to get to and from work, yes owned by the ltd company but I carry no goods & the van does not earn me money, just takes me to where I have to work. I am hearing totally varied cp from insurance brokers, my accountant, DVLA, VOSA, Renault Trucks maindealer Technical Dept (ok cp is too harsh), Driving Standards Agency. Please can anyone advise. I know next to nothing about the trucking industry & im feeling even more sympathtic now to the fuel striking as you boys/girls seem to be up against it from all angles. Basically (for tax or cash flow reasons) I need the Ltd co to own the van, me (an employee of the company surveyor/director whatever) to drive it, I have a fuel card owned by ltd co & I as an individual pay tax on that all I do not want is a £5500 quote which obviously I can’t even dream of accepting. This van is the same as a hightop LWB transit-why the heck should I? I earn basically an average salary due to the massive tax & NI and wondering how genuine my plastic Blaire is when he pretends he’s “right behind the small business/business man/entrepreneur” it seems to me to be [zb]as he is ripping us off & I have the bank ballance to proove it . Im rambling! hope someone can advise. Thanks if so
Considering you bought the van for an “Unbelievable” price, and the fact that you already pay punitive tax for personal use, why not sell the van and use the profit to buy a 4x4 double cab pick up. I would think that this sort of vehicle would not only cost far less to insure, but would also be far more practical for both your business and personal needs.
Welcome to TruckNet.
I’m with Tramper on this, you may be better off getting something else more suitable for the type of use you’ve described. Perhaps the previous owner had the same insurance quotes as you, hence the unbelievable price to get shut of it.
The problem with this model, the Mascott, (a very rare beastie indeed !) is it’s size. It’s neither here nor there. Not a 3.5 tonner nor a 7.5 tonner.
Maybe the Insurance Brokers’ quotes were based on its Gross Vehicle Weight which as it was over 3.5 tonnes they would think of it as a small truck, rather than a large van which is what we would call it .
(I take it you got several quotes, and as mentioned emphasised “carrying own goods only, not used for hire and reward” (and social ,domestic & pleasure obviously - which on most policies is taken as read, anyway.))
If you do decide to keep it, I really would recommend that you get quotes from -and ultimately use - an Insurance Broker that specialises in providing insurance for commercial vehicles.
Also, one final thought from me, maybe you could negotiate a price for an ‘all inclusive’ insurance deal - your vehicle, your company public liability, and your goods in transit ( I should imagine some of your surveying equipment would be expensive to replace if it got nicked from your van.)
Ricky B:
I am hearing totally varied cp from insurance brokers, my accountant, DVLA, VOSA, Renault Trucks maindealer Technical Dept (ok cp is too harsh), Driving Standards Agency. [/i]
I would be interested to hear what they are telling you as this certainly is a ridiculous price you have been quoted.
can only go aong with whats already been said, thats not a quote it’s a “we’re not bothered mate,so heres a daft price”. one thing that has sprung to mind is for 5.5t you need an o’license, from my own experiences of running 7.5 tonners, very few companies will insure a vehicle that requires an o’license if the owner can’t produce one. think i’d be tempted to get a few quotes on it as 3.5t which i would have thought would be around the £800 mark and then if it’s worth it get the van downrated, which requires no work at all, just retesting and replating.
hope this helps.
paul b:
think i’d be tempted to get a few quotes on it as 3.5t which i would have thought would be around the £800 mark and then if it’s worth it get the van downrated, which requires no work at all, just retesting and replating.
That sounds like an idea although I believe downplating to 3.5t requires physical alterations.
you may be right but as i understand it, to down rate anything your not actually altering the vehicle so it can only carry a lesser weight, your declaring that it will only carry that lesser weight in the work your intending to use it for. uprating is obviousley different because your then going to carry more weight than the manufacturer has designed the vehicle for so you might been into heavier brakes and suspension.
Downplating from 5,500kg to 3,500kg would seem to be part of the answer here. Effectively you have a large bodied ‘normal’ van. If you downplate to 3, 500 then you come out of tacho, O-licence and testing at an HGVTS (heavy Goods Vehicle Test Station). So the insurance company should then be looking at 3.5t van weights, not 5.5t goods vehicle weights. Although, as the vehicle will have a tacho fitted, if it is a modular with a separate speedo then it will not require 2 yr checks and recalibration at 6 yrs. If the tacho incorporates the speedo, as most analogue units do; then periodic checks and recalibration will have to be performed.
When ‘downplating’ a vehicle there are often some minor modifications to be made. Example, removing bolts from the fith wheel mounting to the chassis, or using a lower tensile strength steel in mounting components. On some vehicles it can involve fitting spacer blocks to leaf springs, restricting their weight capacity. The problem with this is that the potential payload may be dramatically reduced. Vehicles designed for heavier loads, usually have heavier components; chassis, driveline, suspension, axles etc. If you reduce the permitted gross weight, then these heavier components will take up a greater per centage of the permitted weight available to you. The Dearly Beloved was looking at a 7.5t horsebox recently. Nice conversion, with plenty of room. Trouble was it had been downplated from its’ original 13 t to 7.5t. About the only thing it could carry was a Shetland pony and a bale of hay, not much use when compared with the size of the thing that needed moving!
Hi guys. Thanks very much for the good response. The storey so far…It was indeed Norwich Union offering that “we really dont want your business here’s a daft quote” quote. Now I have £800 per annum quote for fully comp commercial insurance without goods & rewards, my equip only. My licience allows upto 7.5t so I happy enough with that so far. Im very green on the whole HGV thing though. The tacho is a combined speedo all in KM apart from the minor miles per hour markings. Im happy enough with it at 5.5t although I have no idea what to do when the tax runs out & it needs an MOT. What do you reakon?? If it’s easy enough I will leave it but not sure how to get it MOTd & taxed again.
Im told that because my companies business is not in deliveries of others peoples goods that an operators licience isn’t needed. This is my only unknown thing now----or maybe this is true but without an operators licience I cant get it re-MOTd or taxed.
Sometime I will sell this back to myself & convert it to a sleeper day van so for this reason I am keen to keep hold of it as its perfect for this…It is indeed a rare beastie!!!
I paid £5000 for this on an X plate. It shows 27000 km on the clock. Yes its clean but i am eperienced enough to suspect this has done more (shiny steering wheel, odd tyres, worn pedals, squeeking shockers)
C ould it have been imported & zero’d when the tacho was fitted? It was owned by a French company (a well known ish one)
Ricky B:
Hi guys. Thanks very much for the good response. The storey so far…It was indeed Norwich Union offering that “we really dont want your business here’s a daft quote” quote. Now I have £800 per annum quote for fully comp commercial insurance without goods & rewards, my equip only. My licience allows upto 7.5t so I happy enough with that so far. Im very green on the whole HGV thing though. The tacho is a combined speedo all in KM apart from the minor miles per hour markings. Im happy enough with it at 5.5t although I have no idea what to do when the tax runs out & it needs an MOT. What do you reakon?? If it’s easy enough I will leave it but not sure how to get it MOTd & taxed again.
Im told that because my companies business is not in deliveries of others peoples goods that an operators licience isn’t needed. This is my only unknown thing now----or maybe this is true but without an operators licience I cant get it re-MOTd or taxed.
Sometime I will sell this back to myself & convert it to a sleeper day van so for this reason I am keen to keep hold of it as its perfect for this…It is indeed a rare beastie!!!
I paid £5000 for this on an X plate. It shows 27000 km on the clock. Yes its clean but i am eperienced enough to suspect this has done more (shiny steering wheel, odd tyres, worn pedals, squeeking shockers)
C ould it have been imported & zero’d when the tacho was fitted? It was owned by a French company (a well known ish one)
That’s good, im now 1 step closer. Is it right that no operators licience is needed by my company due to the use of the vehicle?
Whelther my company needs an Olicience is my only unanswered question other than do I still need to display the plate details in the cab. I know that’s 2 questions
hmm, it’s a very grey area, yes you can test it and a tax it with no o’license, for the test you simply fill out a form stating the vehicle falls into an exempt category ( this dosn’t include business use) and away you go, you can also find the odd firm that will insure it but wether that’s the way to go, i’m not sure.
or you could get a restricted o’license, very easy to obtain and cover your back.
me personally, i’d sell the van tomorrow and buy a 3.5 tonner that will do the same job, guess you now know why the van seemed so cheap compared to 3.5t’s?
o’license or not. it’s still a ministry test, the tacho has to be in calibration and yes you must have the plate displayed in the cab etc etc, seems a lot of grief to me for something your not going to earn any money with.
don’t fall into the trap of thinking you can test the van, insure it for personal use only and remove the plate so no ones any the wiser, then use it for your business, thers been many go down that road and have the fines to prove it
vosa:
What vehicles require an Operating Licence?
You need an operator’s licence to carry goods (or burden) connected with any trade or business if you use a motor vehicle on a road with:
a gross plated weight of more than 3.5 tonnes or
if it has no gross plated weight, but an unladen weight of more than 1525kg.
An operator’s licence is necessary even if you use the vehicle for only a short period of time, even just one day.
The use of vehicle combinations also requires a licence. If you decide to use a vehicle without an operator’s licence when you should have one, you risk having the vehicle and its goods impounded by the Vehicle & Operator Services Agency (VOSA).
Judging by the above statement I would say you will need an “O” licence.
You will need to obtain a “restricted operators licence” which would allow you to carry your own goods (including tools same as what companies like scaffolders & road repair co’s use) but not anybody else’s goods.
You will need to show
financial repute 3100 for the first vehicle then 1700 for each additional vehicle.This is an amount of money that has to available at short notice ie cash in bank,overdraft facility or credit cards.
good repute ( your character ie convictions etc)
you have a maintenance contract in place for the servicing & inspection of the Vehicle.
I think you will also need to have an operating center.I’m not 100% but usually you wouldn’t be allowed to park outside you home unless the TC inspects the premises and finds they suitable.
And befo you can get this you must place an adve t in your oocal pape r
The tachograph will need to be inspected every 2 years & recalibrated every 6 years (which if my calculations are correct will be next year.
So bearing in mind all the above unless you downplate it to 3.5t (thereby avoiding o licence requirement) I would say it’s ore trouble than it’s worth.
Sell it & get somthing smaller ,the crew cab 4x4 sounds a good comprimise.
Ricky B;
Hopefully when the spacer blocks were put in the suspension and VOSA inspected the vehicle, they then issued a ‘Ministry Plate’ a copy of which is displayed in the vehicle. This ‘plate’ which is a sort of salmon pink in colour gives the maximum permitted axle, gross (whole vehicle) and train (vehicle + load and trailer + load) weights. If the gross weight shown in column 1 of the plate is 3 500 kg or below most of your problems are at an end. The ‘Ministry Plate’ overrules the Manufacturers Plate originally fitted to your vehicle. IF the gross weight is 3 500kg or below you are exempt the following;
Tachograph
Operator licensing
Goods Vehicle Testing
as far as the World is concerned you have a 3 500 kg BIG van. Only vehicles with a permitted gross weight exceeding 3 500kg used in connection with a trade or business, carrying goods or burden require an Operator licence. Doesn’t matter if for hire or reward or not, that merely determines which type of licence you require. There are exemptions dependant upon ‘use’ of vehicle, they can be quite complex, but ‘engineering’ is not one of them.
Regarding testing; your vehicle IF it is plated at 3 500kg requires a Class7 test. This can be carried out at a Heavy Goods Vehicle Test Station, there are a number of garages that can also do the same thing, usually dealers supplying Transits, Sprinters and the like. Make sure the Ministry Plate is clearly displayed in the vehicle when you take it for test, otherwise the tester will assume that it is a 5 500kg vehicle and refuse the test.
Tachograph; lots of issues here. Firstly look to see what the permitted train weight is, if it is the same as the gross weight you have a problem as this indicates you basically cannot draw a trailer. Let’s assume that the gross is
3 500kg and the train is 5 500kg. You can draw a trailer behind you’re loaded van and the total must not exceed 5 500kg. Under most circumstances you will now need to use the tachograph and observe EC drivers hours Regulations. There are exemptions, eg; towing your caravan for you to live in, towing your horsebox with your horse in etc. From what you have said the tacho incorporates the speedo so it would have to be calibrated at six year intervals and checked every two years, about £50 a time. If you were NEVER to tow a trailer or come under EC Regs at any time, you could replace the tacho for a ‘normal’ speedo, but that would probably cost approx £200 so may not be worth the effort
Hi!
In the words of Bart Simpson…“Holy c**p dudes!”
Reading from the plate in the cab: GW=5500, TW=9000. Axle weights Axle 1=2120, axle 2=3725.
Having read & digested everything…(although I need to re-read it all again from the start more carefully) I reakon the following…what do you reakon guys?(Graeme B thanks for the contact details to discuss…I will wait for the next response & go from there, thanks I really appreciate it)
Draft Plan: Down plate to 3.5t using the simple spacers under bumper stops as per dimensions & colours advised by Renault Technical/VOSA. Re-test at VOSA inspection centre for £22. Have MOT done somewhere where they can cope with all HGVs etc. Book somewhere to regularly service vehicle which is a good plan what ever you own.
Park over night at office yard/home
This seems 100% safe whereas remaining at 5.5t is grey & would depend on your nick / severity of the incident if you got pulled-not worth risking.
The blocks I can get fabricate for probably a favour & I have enough kit in my workshop to do the job easy enough.
Have I missed anything ?
PS If anyone needs a Quantity Surveying favour let me know & I will be very pleased to advise.
. Im rambling! hope someone can advise. Thanks if so
