How the zb does it happen

[carryfast]

Freight Dog:

Carryfast:
It’s probably more a case of them getting their stopping point of fifth wheel relative to pin position wrong than not using the height control.Which as I’ve said couldn’t happen in the case of steel suspension.While back in the day as I remember it over shoots or mis couples were more often blamed on previous drivers dropping trailers too high which was certainly something which I was told to make sure I got right from day 1 on artics by old school drivers.

Yeah, but that’s a doddle too. I don’t get it. If you can back an artic you can judge when a fith wheel is under a lip. You can also do it without reversing into the headboard. These drivers can then also get off ones fat arse and look at the pin to see where it’s aiming. It isn’t a skill thing the missed pins, it’s laziness. If someone can drive an artic anyone can do it if without smacking the unit up, I bet you. It’s laziness.

It isn’t a case of the fifth wheel position relative to the front edge of the trailer.It’s knowing exactly where the jaws are relative to the pin from the driving seat and stopping in time to make sure that the jaws are still in front of the pin when you raise the unit suspension height.Which was obviously never an issue in the case of steel suspension.Unless some muppet had dropped the trailer too high which was generally noticed before putting the unit under it. With much winding and swearing regarding the parentage of the previous driver whoever had dropped it.

In this case the idea seems to be to intentionally create a similar situation all to save a bit of grease getting shifted off the fifth wheel.Notwithstanding the previous explanation regards pin positions.

[eddie_snax]

Carryfast:

eddie snax:
The thing is Carryfast, there is no need to use the lead up ramps, there is no grease or scuff marks on my lead up ramps(yet) and I haven’t shot the pin for decades(1 of those novice errors you vow not to repeat). I have a fully auto 2 pedal Scania, with careful use of the manoeuvre mode, there is no need to thump under the pin either, you should be skillfull enough to line up and lower the fifth wheel to drop under the rubbing plate then lift and push onto the pin with a gentle click, give the pin a tug to confirm connection, and at that point exit the cab. None of this getting out to check, granted if your in different motors all the while, then that’s ok, but if you drive the same truck all the time, you should know its size and ride height, and be able to work out whether a trailer is to high or to low to get under as you approach, and if you don’t, how are you going to drive it out the gate

If I’ve read it right you were referring to the method used with steel suspension.In which case there was obviously no way of dropping the unit under the trailer anyway.On that note from memory I coupled up the DAF 85/95 on air in just the same way as all the older wagons on steel.In which case grease on the ramps was actually a good thing with the ramps being there for a reason.That being to lift the trailer as the unit was put under it thereby making sure that the pin was in the correct position vertically relative to the jaws of the fifth wheel before it was coupled.Therefore no risk of mis couples or over shot pins.All of which obviously being dependent on making sure that the trailer was dropped low enough.While any grease wiped off the fifth wheel onto the cat walk and lines was what the power washer was for.

Yes, in my earlier post I was bemoaning the fact that many driver have not had to use steel sprung units, and made the point about the need to allow room for spring compression when reconnecting to a trailer dropped empty, then picked up loaded, and as you rightly state grease was a good sign on the ramps. But now with air, and a bit of professional pride, there is no need to have grease other than on the fifth wheel. My other point being, that there is also no need to raise the unit from the road height position, as you will still have enough travel to lower away from the rubbing plate as you pull away.

When I first had an air suspension tractor(man 22.362) I would still operate as with a steel sprung tractor, partly because that was what I was used to doing, and partly because other still had steel sprung units. Which is similar to you with your Daf’s I suspect, but everyone has air, and its the present day method of working, provided its done right there is no issue, only when drivers rush or get complacent, or just don’t understand do you get issues

Talking of grease, it was not an irregular part of the ongoing driver responsibilities to top up the grease on the fifth wheel between services, this is something that never has to happen now. Every workshop, and most hauliers had their own, had a large drum off grease with a stick, or maybe it was just something that happened where I worked

Juddian:
I can only agree with Eddie Snax’s method, whilst i was in your camp in the days of steelies CF, even i have moved with the times and make use of the air suspension to allow a much more gentle pick up…which helps keep everything nice and clean, and puts the grease where it should be.
Pick up ramps aren’t made like they were in the day of steel springs, they were solid jobbie made to run a loaded trailer up and down for years, if you did that with the thing we now have the bloody silly little bolts holding it on would sheer off.

Where Eddie and i differ is that because i’m on tanks, once i’m somewhere near getting the pin into the opening of the fifth wheel, i’ll get out and have a butchers, cos lining up a tank, unless it’s your own regular tank, isn’t the same as reversing under a square fronted trailer, with the best will in the world with a strange tank you can be a foot too far over, carry on and the pin will ride over the fifth wheel ■■■■■■ up one side…not good with a tank cos bloody easy to dent a bugger underneath if you miss the pin, and that’s going to cost serious wonga.

Like Eddie, the only pushing effort will be the last 3/6" when i raise the tractor suspension enough to lift the legs clear and drop her in…where mine differs is being Arsetronic it has an on/off switch clutch actuation so if its heavy it’s going to be a thumper even at 3".

I have often looked those narrow necks on tanks, and thought that would be difficult, and in those and a few other circumstances, I too would get out for a look. I used to occasionaly pull a cattle float, and that had fluted front corners, and was a pain to line up, so I would get out to check. Its all about a proper attitude

[carryfast]

eddie snax:

Carryfast:
If I’ve read it right you were referring to the method used with steel suspension.In which case there was obviously no way of dropping the unit under the trailer anyway.On that note from memory I coupled up the DAF 85/95 on air in just the same way as all the older wagons on steel.In which case grease on the ramps was actually a good thing with the ramps being there for a reason.That being to lift the trailer as the unit was put under it thereby making sure that the pin was in the correct position vertically relative to the jaws of the fifth wheel before it was coupled.Therefore no risk of mis couples or over shot pins.All of which obviously being dependent on making sure that the trailer was dropped low enough.While any grease wiped off the fifth wheel onto the cat walk and lines was what the power washer was for.

Yes, in my earlier post I was bemoaning the fact that many driver have not had to use steel sprung units, and made the point about the need to allow room for spring compression when reconnecting to a trailer dropped empty, then picked up loaded, and as you rightly state grease was a good sign on the ramps. But now with air, and a bit of professional pride, there is no need to have grease other than on the fifth wheel. My other point being, that there is also no need to raise the unit from the road height position, as you will still have enough travel to lower away from the rubbing plate as you pull away.

When I first had an air suspension tractor(man 22.362) I would still operate as with a steel sprung tractor, partly because that was what I was used to doing, and partly because other still had steel sprung units. Which is similar to you with your Daf’s I suspect, but everyone has air, and its the present day method of working, provided its done right there is no issue, only when drivers rush or get complacent, or just don’t understand do you get issues

Talking of grease, it was not an irregular part of the ongoing driver responsibilities to top up the grease on the fifth wheel between services, this is something that never has to happen now. Every workshop, and most hauliers had their own, had a large drum off grease with a stick, or maybe it was just something that happened where I worked

Firstly I’d guess in the day we might have had some steel suspension units around the fleet together with others on air.However,as I’ve said,I always dropped and picked up trailers no differently with air than I did with steel.In all cases the idea being to avoid the issues of mis couples or over shot pins by making sure that trailers were always sitting lower than fifth wheel table height wherever possible when dropped and throughout the coupling process.On that note the idea of intentionally building in that variable just to avoid shifting some grease off the fifth wheel seems to answer the OP’s question.

As for greasing fifth wheels in my case it was usually carried out regularly on a more or less daily basis by the depot workshop/maintenance staff.While it was up to the driver to clean it off the lines and catwalk with a power wash usually during turn rounds or when starting/finishing a shift.

[the_nodding_donkey]

What a load of self righteous wallop. There is no one right way, it depends on the situation. Loaded or empty trailer. Smooth yard or moon landscape. Does the unit actually have run up ramps.

As for nt being able to get square under a tank, on the mirrors… every tank will have marker lights at the front.

[juddian]

the nodding donkey:
As for nt being able to get square under a tank, on the mirrors… every tank will have marker lights at the front.

That will be in a different position depending on make and model of tank chassis.

You pick tanks up on mirrors alone, bravo.

[carryfast]

the nodding donkey:
What a load of self righteous wallop. There is no one right way, it depends on the situation. Loaded or empty trailer. Smooth yard or moon landscape. Does the unit actually have run up ramps.

It doesn’t matter where it is or empty or loaded.If the trailer isn’t sitting with all its nose weight on the fifth wheel table and off the legs well before the pin goes into the jaws there’s a good chance that the unit will either over shoot the pin or it will mis couple between the jaws and the pin because of any resulting vertical mis alignment.In which case the general rule is ( or at least was ) make sure that the trailer is sitting lower than fifth wheel table height before putting the unit under it.

[the_nodding_donkey]

Juddian:

the nodding donkey:
As for nt being able to get square under a tank, on the mirrors… every tank will have marker lights at the front.

That will be in a different position depending on make and model of tank chassis.

You pick tanks up on mirrors alone, bravo.

Than you, too kind.

[the_nodding_donkey]

Carryfast:

the nodding donkey:
What a load of self righteous wallop. There is no one right way, it depends on the situation. Loaded or empty trailer. Smooth yard or moon landscape. Does the unit actually have run up ramps.

It doesn’t matter where it is or empty or loaded.If the trailer isn’t sitting with all its nose weight on the fifth wheel table and off the legs well before the pin goes into the jaws there’s a good chance that the unit will either over shoot the pin or it will mis couple between the jaws and the pin because of any resulting vertical mis alignment.In which case the general rule is ( or at least was ) make sure that the trailer is sitting lower than fifth wheel table height before putting the unit under it.

If I’m picking up an empty or light trailer, I’ll use the run up ramps. If I’m picking up a heavy trailer, I’ll drop the unit suspension if necessary, and raise when nearly at the pin. No reason to use force and try to ride a heavy trailer up the ramps…
likewise when dropping a trailer. No need to drop a heavy trailer of the ramps, risking damage to the back of the unit chassis when the back suddenly shoots up in the air and catches the lip of the trailer.

[eddie_snax]

the nodding donkey:
What a load of self righteous wallop. There is no one right way, it depends on the situation. Loaded or empty trailer. Smooth yard or moon landscape. Does the unit actually have run up ramps.
.

Actually, there is a wrong way, and that is to lift the air suspension to full height and then ground the landing legs, thus leaving the trailer pointing at the stars, because that’s when drivers riding the pin is almost inevitable. but there maybe several right ways to drop or pick up a trailer dependant on conditions.

the nodding donkey:
If I’m picking up an empty or light trailer, I’ll use the run up ramps. If I’m picking up a heavy trailer, I’ll drop the unit suspension if necessary, and raise when nearly at the pin. No reason to use force and try to ride a heavy trailer up the ramps…
likewise when dropping a trailer. No need to drop a heavy trailer of the ramps, risking damage to the back of the unit chassis when the back suddenly shoots up in the air and catches the lip of the trailer.

You use the lead up ramps for empty light trailers that’s your choice, though I don’t see why when you make full use of the air suspension for heavy trailers, you don’t do the same for light ones, but that’s your choice. Personaly I use the air for every trailer regardless of the weight, that’s My choice, we are neither of us wrong, as long we don’t drop them sky high

[carryfast]

the nodding donkey:

Carryfast:
It doesn’t matter where it is or empty or loaded.If the trailer isn’t sitting with all its nose weight on the fifth wheel table and off the legs well before the pin goes into the jaws there’s a good chance that the unit will either over shoot the pin or it will mis couple between the jaws and the pin because of any resulting vertical mis alignment.In which case the general rule is ( or at least was ) make sure that the trailer is sitting lower than fifth wheel table height before putting the unit under it.

If I’m picking up an empty or light trailer, I’ll use the run up ramps. If I’m picking up a heavy trailer, I’ll drop the unit suspension if necessary, and raise when nearly at the pin. No reason to use force and try to ride a heavy trailer up the ramps…
likewise when dropping a trailer. No need to drop a heavy trailer of the ramps, risking damage to the back of the unit chassis when the back suddenly shoots up in the air and catches the lip of the trailer.

Feel free to explain how you would have picked up a heavy trailer with a unit on steel suspension which from memory meant no supposed issues of any excessive ‘force’.Bearing in mind that every component in the chain is designed for that purpose.Or the back of the unit going anywhere when dropping it bearing in mind the legs will/should still hit the ground and take the weight well before the trailer reaches the bottom of the ramps when pulling away.

As I’ve said the obvious answer to the OP’s question being the inherent variables,involved in the idea of starting the coupling process,with an obvious trailer to unit height mismatch and the need to sort it in the relatively short distance between putting the unit under it but before the pin has reached the jaws. Let’s just say that idea wouldn’t be fun in the case of a unit without any manual clutch control.

[freight_dog]

Trailers high up are a right pain in the backside but I don’t think a missed pin is inevitable for the non lazy.

With a square ended trailer it’s not hard to reverse a unit with tail air squished out, up to a trailer, leave a sensible visual gap beyond what you stare at all day in the mirrors, then raise before getting out and having a look. Should be obvious then if you’ve lifted a foot of thin air, are aiming on the pee or the pin is potentially heading to ruin a good day out.

[eddie_snax]

Freight Dog:
Trailers high up are a right pain in the backside but I don’t think a missed pin is inevitable for the non lazy.

With a square ended trailer it’s not hard to reverse a unit with tail air squished out, up to a trailer, leave a sensible visual gap beyond what you stare at all day in the mirrors, then raise before getting out and having a look. Should be obvious then if you’ve lifted a foot of thin air, are aiming on the pee or the pin is potentially heading to ruin a good day out.

I did say almost inevitable, but what you have described in 3 lines I’ve used about 100 for, but still some don’t want to see the logic in it.

[the_nodding_donkey]

eddie snax:

the nodding donkey:
What a load of self righteous wallop. There is no one right way, it depends on the situation. Loaded or empty trailer. Smooth yard or moon landscape. Does the unit actually have run up ramps.
.

Actually, there is a wrong way, and that is to lift the air suspension to full height and then ground the landing legs, thus leaving the trailer pointing at the stars, because that’s when drivers riding the pin is almost inevitable. but there maybe several right ways to drop or pick up a trailer dependant on conditions.

the nodding donkey:
If I’m picking up an empty or light trailer, I’ll use the run up ramps. If I’m picking up a heavy trailer, I’ll drop the unit suspension if necessary, and raise when nearly at the pin. No reason to use force and try to ride a heavy trailer up the ramps…
likewise when dropping a trailer. No need to drop a heavy trailer of the ramps, risking damage to the back of the unit chassis when the back suddenly shoots up in the air and catches the lip of the trailer.

You use the lead up ramps for empty light trailers that’s your choice, though I don’t see why when you make full use of the air suspension for heavy trailers, you don’t do the same for light ones, but that’s your choice. Personaly I use the air for every trailer regardless of the weight, that’s My choice, we are neither of us wrong, as long we don’t drop them sky high

You and I are in complete agreement

[the_nodding_donkey]

Carryfast:

the nodding donkey:

Carryfast:
It doesn’t matter where it is or empty or loaded.If the trailer isn’t sitting with all its nose weight on the fifth wheel table and off the legs well before the pin goes into the jaws there’s a good chance that the unit will either over shoot the pin or it will mis couple between the jaws and the pin because of any resulting vertical mis alignment.In which case the general rule is ( or at least was ) make sure that the trailer is sitting lower than fifth wheel table height before putting the unit under it.

If I’m picking up an empty or light trailer, I’ll use the run up ramps. If I’m picking up a heavy trailer, I’ll drop the unit suspension if necessary, and raise when nearly at the pin. No reason to use force and try to ride a heavy trailer up the ramps…
likewise when dropping a trailer. No need to drop a heavy trailer of the ramps, risking damage to the back of the unit chassis when the back suddenly shoots up in the air and catches the lip of the trailer.

Feel free to explain how you would have picked up a heavy trailer with a unit on steel suspension which from memory meant no supposed issues of any excessive ‘force’.Bearing in mind that every component in the chain is designed for that purpose.Or the back of the unit going anywhere when dropping it bearing in mind the legs will/should still hit the ground and take the weight well before the trailer reaches the bottom of the ramps when pulling away.

As I’ve said the obvious answer to the OP’s question being the inherent variables,involved in the idea of starting the coupling process,with an obvious trailer to unit height mismatch and the need to sort it in the relatively short distance between putting the unit under it but before the pin has reached the jaws. Let’s just say that idea wouldn’t be fun in the case of a unit without any manual clutch control.

Having taken of my rose tinted chocolate box glasses, I vividly remember trying to get a steel sprung unit [Ford Cargo with day cab and tops leper conversion…loathsome does not begin to describe it ] under a fully loaded trailer, wheels spinning in either gravel or rough waste ground, one wheel in a pot hole . A trailer sunk an inch into the ground would be a serious basterd to pick up. But what do I know. I bow to your superior recollection of days of past, and will apply for retraining tomorrow.

Edit for clarity

[freight_dog]

eddie snax:

Freight Dog:
Trailers high up are a right pain in the backside but I don’t think a missed pin is inevitable for the non lazy.

With a square ended trailer it’s not hard to reverse a unit with tail air squished out, up to a trailer, leave a sensible visual gap beyond what you stare at all day in the mirrors, then raise before getting out and having a look. Should be obvious then if you’ve lifted a foot of thin air, are aiming on the pee or the pin is potentially heading to ruin a good day out.

I did say almost inevitable, but what you have described in 3 lines I’ve used about 100 for, but still some don’t want to see the logic in it.

I agree. It’s the same lazy buggers that bend the legs on a brand new trailer. No mechanical sympathy. Some people just like making a job out to be harder than it need be I guess . Dont know really.

[carryfast]

the nodding donkey:
Having taken of my rose tinted chocolate box glasses, I vividly remember trying to get a steel sprung unit [Ford Cargo with day cab and tops leper conversion…loathsome does not begin to describe it ] under a fully loaded trailer, wheels spinning in either gravel or rough waste ground, one wheel in a pot hole . A trailer sunk an inch into the ground would be a serious basterd to pick up. But what do I know. I bow to your superior recollection of days of past, and will apply for retraining tomorrow.

There’s always a worse case scenario regardless.However I’m guessing that no one ever solved the problem by winding the trailer into the air then put the unit under it using guesswork to stop in time with the jaws before the pin then wound the trailer down onto the fifth wheel then coupled it.

On that note that was a good description of our over spill yard at Feltham.