Winseer:
I suspect the differential between what firms are prepared to pay their full time contracts vs what they end up paying through the nose for agency
Has never been wider.
How is a business model sustainable if you, as a firm - are forced to pay over £20ph at your workplace where the going rate is around half that?
Isn’t there yet a teensy weensy bit of upward pressure to make life a whole lot better for your full timers now rather than let them all resign of their own accord, and go agency?
There must surely be a tipping point where even the most Anti-Agency driver on here who says currently “I wouldn’t be seen dead signing up to an agency…”
Eventually says… "Hey, I have changed my mind. Yes I WILL Take a any five from seven DHL agency placement - for the £55ph that is now the going rate there…
…At present, it looks like that tipping point I just described - might be with us before the actual hauliers play true “Catch-up” and hand something like a £5ph rate rise to their staff as a “Retainer”, before making it permanent if you then work at same yard for 5 years, say…
I suspect that is a common theme amongst most permie drivers too. They’ll turn down an extra £150 per week and would rather work for peanuts so long as they get their “own” wagon. V8 Scanias coming for everyone to “solve” the “shortage”?
My guess is (regarding OP’s situation) the company urgently needs drivers but in their estimate - only temporary so they’re willing to pay the increased driver/agency premium so long as they don’t have to bind themselves contractually as they don’t foresee the demand lasting into the future where tehy would be stuck with a driver on contract whom they will owe pay but won’t be ale to put to any use.
Winseer:
I suspect the differential between what firms are prepared to pay their full time contracts vs what they end up paying through the nose for agency
Has never been wider.
How is a business model sustainable if you, as a firm - are forced to pay over £20ph at your workplace where the going rate is around half that?
Isn’t there yet a teensy weensy bit of upward pressure to make life a whole lot better for your full timers now rather than let them all resign of their own accord, and go agency?
Won’t happen, British employers don’t have that mindset, not just the private sector but public sector too. My brother works for the council in the housing benefit department. He used to be the manager of a HB benefit department in a London borough several years ago. They used to have agency in who got paid more and what happened over time is that more and more of the permanent staff swapped to agency and then came back to work in the very same job via agency on more money. Eventually even he joined in as he could earn more on agency doing a much lower grade job in the department than he could being a manager of it.
The mindset of the majority of employers in this country is not to pay more to retain staff. The only companies that seem to recognise the need to do this are young companies, ones started by Gen X and Millennials. For people in several sectors, especially IT, you won’t find them staying with employers for years on end, they’ll constantly be on the move chasing the money and staying at a company even just 2 years is seen as too long. As a result they end up within a few years earning £300-£400 per day.
For many jobs using employment agencies and moving employer is seen as the only way to get a worthwhile pay increase yet for some reason in haulage you get frowned upon and even abused for daring to do the same to improve your lot.
Winseer:
I suspect the differential between what firms are prepared to pay their full time contracts vs what they end up paying through the nose for agency
Has never been wider.
How is a business model sustainable if you, as a firm - are forced to pay over £20ph at your workplace where the going rate is around half that?
Isn’t there yet a teensy weensy bit of upward pressure to make life a whole lot better for your full timers now rather than let them all resign of their own accord, and go agency?
Won’t happen, British employers don’t have that mindset, not just the private sector but public sector too. My brother works for the council in the housing benefit department. He used to be the manager of a HB benefit department in a London borough several years ago. They used to have agency in who got paid more and what happened over time is that more and more of the permanent staff swapped to agency and then came back to work in the very same job via agency on more money. Eventually even he joined in as he could earn more on agency doing a much lower grade job in the department than he could being a manager of it.
The mindset of the majority of employers in this country is not to pay more to retain staff. The only companies that seem to recognise the need to do this are young companies, ones started by Gen X and Millennials. For people in several sectors, especially IT, you won’t find them staying with employers for years on end, they’ll constantly be on the move chasing the money and staying at a company even just 2 years is seen as too long. As a result they end up within a few years earning £300-£400 per day.
For many jobs using employment agencies and moving employer is seen as the only way to get a worthwhile pay increase yet for some reason in haulage you get frowned upon and even abused for daring to do the same to improve your lot.
These things go in cycles, agency might be on an upper cycle at the moment but given the hysteria in the media about the alleged driver shortage you can bet your last quid that soon enough they’ll be letting immigrants with HGV’s back in, then the cycle will turn again.
Good luck to anyone making hay while the sun shines, if i’m wrong and this carries on i might just jump on board meself next year, semi retire and milk the weekend plunder, but summat tells me by next year fings will have changed.
Following on from that, suggest anyone negotiating pay deals for full timers this year do the very best you can to get a decent increase while t’managment is worried about fulfilling contracts and/or losing drivers.
Followed this forum via Google. Quite interesting reading some of the comments left on here. My opinion is that there is actualy a real driver shortage at the moment. My reason for this belief is that my firm has been advertising for a further 5 drivers and is struggling to attract them. Our wages have also been increased to keep us already there from leaving, our normal rates were good enough to call our positions dead mans shoe jobs. Even with the increase it is making little difference in the recruitment. I have been tramping for years and have reached the age where I don’t really want it anymore but this increase in earnings and the way that we are being treat has rekindled my passion once again. Regardless of any new influx of the next wave of low cost labour, these rates will be hard to bring back down in the future. So the next wave of exploited people that flood the market may well affect new jobs advertised or certainly agency drivers. Think very carefully before jumping out of a decent number chasing a few pounds more as it will be short lived.
Socketset:
When drivers become expensive they’ll be the first out the door when cost cutting rocks around - which it will.
Difficult to see how. Companies don’t normally employ more drivers than they need and unlike, say, the “Diversity and Equality Officer” employers of drivers can’t really function without them.
Socketset:
When drivers become expensive they’ll be the first out the door when cost cutting rocks around - which it will.
Tires are expensive, but you dont take them off and drive on the rims. Good Drivers are not expensive, rather an assett.
The problem there is that it takes good knowledgeable managers to appreciate said good drivers, and the former are arguably in shorter supply than the latter.
Juddian:
The problem there is that it takes good knowledgeable managers to appreciate said good drivers, and the former are arguably in shorter supply than the latter.
Agreed, I work for a company that actually appreciates its drivers and knows it is difficult to find good drivers, the type of companies that do not recognise good drivers are not the types that I would normally work for. Those types of firms are only good for new passes to gain some experience from and for the exploited low paid workers. Unfortunately some drivers these days could only work for this type as to be fair from my experience, these days some drivers are not exactly what I would consider as employable.
Yorkshire Tramper:
Followed this forum via Google. Quite interesting reading some of the comments left on here. My opinion is that there is actualy a real driver shortage at the moment. My reason for this belief is that my firm has been advertising for a further 5 drivers and is struggling to attract them. Our wages have also been increased to keep us already there from leaving, our normal rates were good enough to call our positions dead mans shoe jobs. Even with the increase it is making little difference in the recruitment. I have been tramping for years and have reached the age where I don’t really want it anymore but this increase in earnings and the way that we are being treat has rekindled my passion once again. Regardless of any new influx of the next wave of low cost labour, these rates will be hard to bring back down in the future. So the next wave of exploited people that flood the market may well affect new jobs advertised or certainly agency drivers. Think very carefully before jumping out of a decent number chasing a few pounds more as it will be short lived.
Welcome .
I don’t agree with the highlighted bit. Around 8 years ago I was getting £18/hr on PAYE for sundays in yorkshire which rose to £20/hr for Smith’s at Taddy doing the tankers and also keg trunking down to Cas. Over the years that have followed the sunday rates (and rates in general) have been on the incline. Until this recent shortage hysteria you wouldn’t find any job advert* for this area advertising more £16/hr for sundays on PAYE, typically more like £14-15/hr. The reason for that was primarily because of a good supply of cheap eastern european labour willing to work for those rates because even £14/hr to a Romanian is like winning the lottery.
If we get an influx of cheap Filipinos, Indians like some are predicting then the rates will quickly drop back down again as all the agencies undercut each other, knowing that they’ll happily work for minimum wage.
DCPCFML:
If we get an influx of cheap Filipinos, Indians like some are predicting then the rates will quickly drop back down again as all the agencies undercut each other, knowing that they’ll happily work for minimum wage. * excepting a few ‘dead man’s shoes’ companies.
Hi mate, With respect I understand where your comming from, but how do you propose any management could overturn you’re mew contract and take away you’re T&Cs? Be difficult to explain that one to the workforce. I am sure that some of the unscrupulous firms would have a go at it but not a decent firm.
weve stopped using agency, used to have a couple of decent guys but havent seen them for a couple of months, most probably gone to the agencies better customers, since then we have had a different driver nearly every shift and a few of them have been really poor, attitude issues, and damage, more damage in the last 6 weeks then over the last few years… boss decided stop using them and adjusted the work loads accordingly even turning down work or giving a more realistic time span…
Sploom:
They can change your contract with 90days notice,I thought.Or maybe outsource the job to hauliers,like they did at walkers and argos,magna park
An employer cannot reduce your wages within the term of you’re contract. They can alter things like hours and pay dates etc with written notice. It all depends on the length of your contract before they can reduce your’re hourly rate. Once set it is difficult to reduce. Hope this clarifies my point a bit better,
Sploom:
They can change your contract with 90days notice,I thought.Or maybe outsource the job to hauliers,like they did at walkers and argos,magna park
An employer cannot reduce your wages within the term of you’re contract. They can alter things like hours and pay dates etc with written notice. It all depends on the length of your contract before they can reduce your’re hourly rate. Once set it is difficult to reduce. Hope this clarifies my point a bit better,
If you are given a 90 day notice on employment contract, you either sign or have dismissed youreself.
As far as I know it still happens, asda shop workers 2 years ago.
DCPCFML:
If we get an influx of cheap Filipinos, Indians like some are predicting then the rates will quickly drop back down again as all the agencies undercut each other, knowing that they’ll happily work for minimum wage. * excepting a few ‘dead man’s shoes’ companies.
Hi mate, With respect I understand where your comming from, but how do you propose any management could overturn you’re mew contract and take away you’re T&Cs? Be difficult to explain that one to the workforce. I am sure that some of the unscrupulous firms would have a go at it but not a decent firm.
I was coming from the agency driver angle rather than the permie driver angle. But as noted in the recent replies, if they want to reduce your pay (as a permie) there are ways and means. Look at Tesco Doncaster and, more recently, Morrisons at Wakey. Both used to be dead man’s shoes places in terms of pay and conditions, but both have been farmed out to race-to-the-bottom-logistics.com and now look at them. They can’t get drivers for toffee now because the pay is no longer attractive when you consider all the weekends and bank holidays you’ll be working, so now they have to rely on agency and subbies to get the stuff into the stores.
I remember a time about 25 years ago when agency drivers would literally fight each other to get in at Morrisons as it was the only route to getting a full-time job there. How times change eh?
Daf245:
If you are given a 90 day notice on employment contract, you either sign or have dismissed youreself.
It really boils down to what your contract states, now I am no employment lawyer but have the knowledge of my own circumstance and contract. My employer cannot alter my terms and conditions or alter my wages without my consent or by paying me compensation. Our union would have a field day if they did and certainly would not be sacking me by my refusing to sign an agreement to lower my wages.
DCPCFML:
I was coming from the agency driver angle rather than the permie driver angle.
I am uncertain on how an agency driver stands on this. if it is written into your contract that they may change your T&Cs and pay and I suspect that would be pretty standard with any agency contract, zero hour contracts the norm there.
I assume they could do whatever they like within reason, but a good perm contract will have written into it that it cannot be altered by either the driver or the employer for the duration of the contract. Unless you both agree.
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