ROG:
The current DVSA test vehicle requirements are much more robust than they were years ago
gov.uk/become-lorry-bus-dri … iving-test
There is nothing there that is going to prepare the driver properly for the real world. In my view the whole test needs to be far more stringent. An hour and a bit driving round streets where the candidate could possibly not get any awkward situations.
Also candidates can get away with far too much. There is too much luck involved.
robinhood_1984:
Not being funny, but they haven’t been training drivers very well for years, if ever. I passed my class 1 in 2005 so only 10 years ago but it was obviously still in the days of manual gear boxes etc. However, the vast majority of “trainers” were using bare minimum spec training vehicles that would not reflect in the slightest what a new driver would progress on to driving having pass their test. A little six speed wagon and drag flat bed might have being legally acceptable, but it doesn’t and didn’t prepare people to drive a real life full size artic.
I did my training in Grimsby and chose to go with Denby as they were the only people doing the training in real life trucks at the time. My class one was in a 6x2 420 Scania Topline with a 45ft curtainsider, basically the sort of thing every one is going to be driving once they pass. I have to say though, that the real learning came afterwards when I spent several weeks double manning with my dad. As good as Denby’s truck was for preparing me for the real world, they only train you to pass the test and nothing more. I think far more emphasis should be spent on getting a feel for the vehicle, as in maneuvering it, backing it on to or in to places and the like. But the examiners aren’t bothered about that, they’ll mark you down for crossing your arms while steering, yet don’t give a flying rats ■■■■ if you can safely back in to a yard off of a road.
Maybe you should have gone to a different training company then. I have worked for two different companies and in both cases the instructors spent time training for the real world as best they could with the equipment they had.
What some do not realise is with some candidates there is barely enough time fit in everything required in the time given.
You may get someone who cannot grasp the reverse in the allocated time therefore he or she will lose time on forward driving or vice versa.
Time is the main factor when training most and usually there is not enough of it. In the 70’s when I sat my test it was normal for a candidate to have 2 weeks to do a class one and one week for a rigid.
Now it is the norm to try to get people through in 5 days. Sorry but you can only teach so much in that time. Of course it boils down to money.
Re Examiners there aim is to make sure the candidate is going to be at a standard safe enough to take the vehicle on the road alone. Believe you me there are a lot of examiners who do not want to pass people but they have guidelines to follow and drivers with poor skills get through unfortunately.
Come on Rog or anybody give us your opinion please. After nearly 20 years in training I like to hear other views.
This is an internet forum after all. 
At least carryfast has an opinion!
albion1971:
Come on Rog or anybody give us your opinion please. After nearly 20 years in training I like to hear other views.
This is an internet forum after all.
At least carryfast has an opinion ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING?!
FTFY. 
The current test does its job as a basic starting point but until we get graduated licencing then that is where we will still be in years to come
That applies to tests in all categories
I know the training isn’t long enough, 10 days when i went straight to class 1 in '76, time for the long serving ex lorry driver who taught me to knock me into shape, taught me to reverse proper like, none of this lining up marks on the trailer, i had to reverse the whole section of cones he’d set out in a zigzag on the airfield, set me up well for after passing though.
Non synchro manual box in the lorry, Leyland Mastiff with V8 Perkin i think.
Removing things like the controlled stop, gearchanging exercise and the latter automatic pass leading to manual licence have all been big mistakes IMHO and of no help to the students who need to feel the confidence that they are in control of a lorry that needs to be driven, not just attending the steering wheel and peering towards the mirrors at the correct frequency in a vehicle they are pointing.
Not saying i’ve got all the answers and i haven’t been a driving instructor but i did teach a goodly number of new drivers on the car transporters and with some success, basically i made their training as hard as possible, not cos i was a sadistic sod but my theory is that when those lads got out on their own they would never fit a bigger or more awkward combination of vehicles on than they had already learned, i made them put the biggest tightest loads on that it was possible to fit on the lorry, also issued them with copies of my appalling diagrams of typical potential loads for future reference…tried to make them feel that they were in control and more than capable.
I’ve seen other trainers in years gone by trying to teach them with a shedload of small cars, they’ll never learn bugger all like that and won’t feel confidant when they get 7 large cars 2 people carriers and a van/pick up to fit on where they previously perfected fitting 9 Corsas and 2 Vectras on.
One thing i did learn, and i have mentioned this before, is that its the duty and moral obligation IMHO if an instructor comes across, it won’t be often, someone who plainly will never be a lorry driver as long as they live, they should stop the course and explain why and sort something out about refunding, its simply not right to carry on regardless…examiners also share this responsibility.
I had one such trainee on the cars and he was the only one who i’ve ever refused to train, he really and honestly could not drive a lorry, at all, i won’t go into details but i refused to continue for the reasons given, someone else did, he stuffed the whole loaded outfit into a low bridge weeks later, someone taught this bloke to drive or rather they got him through the test somehow, all wrong.
ROG:
The current test does its job as a basic starting point but until we get graduated licencing then that is where we will still be in years to comeThat applies to tests in all categories
That’s the big problem though because they (car,LGV & PCV) are not taken as a basic starting point by drivers.
Majority of drivers think because they have passed a test that is it, hence poor standards from car and vocational drivers and far too many accidents.
Juddian:
I know the training isn’t long enough, 10 days when i went straight to class 1 in '76, time for the long serving ex lorry driver who taught me to knock me into shape, taught me to reverse proper like, none of this lining up marks on the trailer, i had to reverse the whole section of cones he’d set out in a zigzag on the airfield, set me up well for after passing though.
Non synchro manual box in the lorry, Leyland Mastiff with V8 Perkin i think.Removing things like the controlled stop, gearchanging exercise and the latter automatic pass leading to manual licence have all been big mistakes IMHO and of no help to the students who need to feel the confidence that they are in control of a lorry that needs to be driven, not just attending the steering wheel and peering towards the mirrors at the correct frequency in a vehicle they are pointing.
Not saying i’ve got all the answers and i haven’t been a driving instructor but i did teach a goodly number of new drivers on the car transporters and with some success, basically i made their training as hard as possible, not cos i was a sadistic sod but my theory is that when those lads got out on their own they would never fit a bigger or more awkward combination of vehicles on than they had already learned, i made them put the biggest tightest loads on that it was possible to fit on the lorry, also issued them with copies of my appalling diagrams of typical potential loads for future reference…tried to make them feel that they were in control and more than capable.
I’ve seen other trainers in years gone by trying to teach them with a shedload of small cars, they’ll never learn bugger all like that and won’t feel confidant when they get 7 large cars 2 people carriers and a van/pick up to fit on where they previously perfected fitting 9 Corsas and 2 Vectras on.One thing i did learn, and i have mentioned this before, is that its the duty and moral obligation IMHO if an instructor comes across, it won’t be often, someone who plainly will never be a lorry driver as long as they live, they should stop the course and explain why and sort something out about refunding, its simply not right to carry on regardless…examiners also share this responsibility.
I had one such trainee on the cars and he was the only one who i’ve ever refused to train, he really and honestly could not drive a lorry, at all, i won’t go into details but i refused to continue for the reasons given, someone else did, he stuffed the whole loaded outfit into a low bridge weeks later, someone taught this bloke to drive or rather they got him through the test somehow, all wrong.
Thanks Juddian, nice to get a proper opinion on a subject especially when you have never qualified as an instructor.
I was much the same as yourself when I took my test. Two weeks training and plenty practice at the hardest reverses and really tight forward corners. My training was in a Leyland Chieftan.
I agree removing some of the exercises was a big mistake. One of the worst things in my view was taking away the learning of the highway code and bringing in the theory test. Candidates learn enough to pass then tend to forget because they just keep going over the questions until they pass. They had to learn the highway code and it generally stuck with most.
Regarding moral obligation of an instructor and examiner I agree but unfortunately it is not that simple.
Both places I have worked at I have not had the authority as an instructor to say a candidate was not suitable. I have said it many times but usually someone higher makes that decision.
In some cases even the worst of drivers eventually get there.
When I worked for a private training company if a candidate was struggling it usually ended up with them having to take extra training usually resulting in a pass. Only once do I remember a guy having about one months training 3 tests and going home without a license.
With the MOD it was different. No matter how bad they were ( and some were horrendously bad) they carried on training and getting tests until they passed. Scandalous really but it happened and probably still does.
I remember once training or trying to train this guy. He was about 50 at the time and apparently had held a LGV license previously. Again and again I told my boss he will never ever pass a test but my boss said keep training him and put him in for test on the friday. It was what they called a closed end course so that was his last day no matter what happened.
I would not sign the test form but my boss did and he went for test. As normal I went to meet them when they arrived back. Surprise surprise the examiner was driving. He had stopped the test in the interest of public safety. That guy did not get a license again thank goodness but there are plenty who definitely should not be driving do get a license.
As far as examiners are concerned they have guidelines to follow and in some cases have to pass someone when they know they are really not fit to pass. As I have said many times. Far too much luck involved.
Also training went backwards when it changed from driver training to license acquisition.
Will things ever improve? Certainly not in the near future unfortunately.
the maoster:
albion1971:
Come on Rog or anybody give us your opinion please. After nearly 20 years in training I like to hear other views.
This is an internet forum after all.
At least carryfast has an opinion ON ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING?!FTFY.
Oh well that will be that then. Is it possible to have a discussion on here? Some are very good at making comments but never seem to back them up.
nice input from Juddian and Albion
albion1971:
ROG:
The current test does its job as a basic starting point but until we get graduated licencing then that is where we will still be in years to comeThat applies to tests in all categories
That’s the big problem though because they (car,LGV & PCV) are not taken as a basic starting point by drivers.
Majority of drivers think because they have passed a test that is it, hence poor standards from car and vocational drivers and far too many accidents.
That being the case then its only the Govt which can legislate to change things by introducing graduated licencing
If there is a problem it is that the current test standard is not sufficient. The training schools are basically getting a driver through a test in as short a time as possible and doing what they can in that time to prepare the drivers for working conditions.
Most courses are 20 hours (ish). This should be enough to reach current test standards. ANYBODY can then turn round to their instructor and say - “Right I have passed the test, now can you give me another 30 hours training on this, this and this please” but of course that never happens - which isn’t the trainers fault. All training has to be paid for by someone.
I will say that I believe the current test is better/higher than it was in my day (1982). At least vehicles are no longer just flat beds or unloaded. Yes there is a problem with auto/manual which is silly but that was decided by Government.
I think the real problem is the industry. The industry fails to train or invest time in drivers. It should be the industry that carries out follow up training/assessments etc.
Lets face it - what percentage of us go on and do advanced training (IAM etc) - some do, most think they can already drive.
I like Rog’s idea - phased testing like motorbikes are now. I really like the current motorbike regime (cos I don’t have to do it!!) and that would make sense for HGVs to some degree.
Good post Shep as usual. Tend to agree with most of what you say but think the standard of training very much depends on the training centre now as it did in the 70’s and 80’s. Get a good centre with properly qualified instructors will make all the difference usually. There was a period when any driver could train any other driver and that was never a good thing. Not sure if that can still be done now or not?
Your last sentence…Whose idea?
albion1971:
Your last sentence…Whose idea?
Allright - I don’t know whose idea it was originally but thought I’d just big Rog up … he deserves it for all the help he gives in the newbie section
I think training schools are often criticised when ultimately for them to do more - they have to charge more and the cost of licence acquisition is already a major issue. Yes there are good and bad instructors - that’s for sure, but there is a lot of pressure to get students through the test as quickly as possible.
I hear horror stories about some trainers that lose their temper, rant and rave, grab wheels etc which is totally wrong, but when there is pressure to get a pass by the end of the week maybe I can see why. A student fails, they slag the trainer off - I can see the issue.
I received a blog email thing from DVSA today bigging up their ADI system for car driving instructors - maybe this is what is needed for HGV instructors instead of any-old-body can do it. And while we’re at it lets have an ADI type list for DCPC trainers as well … that’d get rid of some of the dross.
shep532:
albion1971:
Your last sentence…Whose idea?Allright - I don’t know whose idea it was originally but thought I’d just big Rog up … he deserves it for all the help he gives in the newbie section
I think training schools are often criticised when ultimately for them to do more - they have to charge more and the cost of licence acquisition is already a major issue. Yes there are good and bad instructors - that’s for sure, but there is a lot of pressure to get students through the test as quickly as possible.
I hear horror stories about some trainers that lose their temper, rant and rave, grab wheels etc which is totally wrong, but when there is pressure to get a pass by the end of the week maybe I can see why. A student fails, they slag the trainer off - I can see the issue.
I received a blog email thing from DVSA today bigging up their ADI system for car driving instructors - maybe this is what is needed for HGV instructors instead of any-old-body can do it. And while we’re at it lets have an ADI type list for DCPC trainers as well … that’d get rid of some of the dross.
Fair enough. Yes you are quite correct a lot of the time they are criticised for the wrong reasons usually by people that heve never done the job. It is the same as anything you get good and bad ones but you are right about the pressure for instructors.
You are also correct about trainers losing their tempers etc. Seen it many times. They should not be doing the job. You need plenty patience that’s for sure.
I agree the ADI system is good but you still get some poor training by car instructors. Some of them have only one interest and that is making money.
Got to say my RTITIB LGV instructors course was spot on but far from easy. Far better than anything I have done with DSA.
I think a lot boils down to the individual trainers attitude just like it does with driving.
By the looks of this, every single one of old f… sitting in trucks for years want that any new guy or girl who wants to drive truck invest 5000 - 10000gbp in month training…
It’s already hard enough for some young people working in factories or retail to save up 1500 - 3000gbp for current training…
It’s clear for a complete fool that skill comes with practice and time…
The only sensable post in this thread was from “Canadian” about H&S… in test examinor tend to fail for not looking in mirrors every 10 seconds and touching curb - so lets see how many old f… “proper” truckers from this forum will sign up for experiment - Yo old f… we’ll attach to your p… electric shock “devices” that gives shock each time you forget to look on both mirrors at least once per 10 seconds and double hit upon touching kerb… and cab full with cameras…
How many volunteer…?
It’s simply disgusting to read old f… moaning and bi… about how bad new drivers are and that they should pay ridiculous amounts to achieve old self-glorified ■■■■■■■■ levels before being allowed on roads…
I have had my class 2 for 29 years, doing my class 1 this year, I am and oldish ■■■■ at 50 years old and as an oldish ■■■■ I will let you know
It would also be very interesting to see statistics from DVLA or watewaa about Truck crashes and incidents that show the age of Truck Drivers caused them from Glasgow to Tippers I think many would be surprised about age tendency on such statistics…
Old Professionals imao… talking about killing brain cells while driving the same route for decades…
Interesting thread, reading what you guys all think.
Im saving as much as I can in order to set up a Training School. Currently, Im training to become an ADI, so I will know how to train properly.
I would like to get a rigid and artic, possibly getting a drag for the trailer in the future. Money though, is a major factor. To start, insurance is in excess of £700 per year, per vehicle. Im in a quiet ruralish area, so would be more in higher populated areas. Vehicles are also somewhat expensive, don’t want something thats cheap but too old and worn out.
Looking at Renaults but most of their 18 tonners are 6 speed. Found a cracking motor for good money but the guy isnt replying to emails. 12t, proper 4/4 gearbox, dual controlled with lowish miles and only 10 years old.