Here we go again

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

:arrow_right: Does the driver card replace the driving licence?
:bulb: No, the driving licence and the driver card are separate documents.
:arrow_right: Must the data on the driver card or the mass memory be backed up regularly?
:bulb: There has been no ruling on this up till now. However we expect a mandatory data download on a regular basis of driver cards and mass memory data. See www.my-fis.co.uk
:arrow_right: When must the driver do a print out?
:bulb:
1.)A print out must be made with mixed operations, i.e. alternately using vehicles with traditional (paper chart tachographs) and digital tachographs when the driver changes vehicles.
2.)A print out must be made and signed at the end of the journey when driving without a driver card, e.g. because of loss, theft or fault.In this case the driver must obtain a new driver card within a defined period.

:arrow_right: now well
Doing Printout a legal Requirement :question:
:bulb: looks like that

2

Under normal operation no, it is not a legal requirement.

3

If you always drive one and the same vehicle,Yes,You are right as that shows me,but,what i mean is Agencywork with changing of Vehicle,mixed Use of Tachographs and differend Companies.
Just as this Website shows me,and i ride only on it to make one bringing a Copy of law which says others

4

I thought I’d read somewhere that you needed a printout if you used mixed tachographs in the same shift but I can’t find any regulations that say you have to.


Page 26 at DFT:
If the driver has to remove their driver card during the working day a manual entry
must be made when the driver next uses the vehicle or another vehicle equipped
with a digital tachograph. This allows the driver to account for all periods of time
during their daily work periods which could not be recorded directly onto the driver
card by virtue of the card not being in the recording equipment when these activities
were undertaken. In other words, drivers must still account for the period(s) of time
— within their working day — between the last card withdrawal and the current card
insertion.
If, during the daily work period the driver changes to a vehicle that has an analogue
tachograph, then the periods of work during this time period will need to be
recorded on a chart.

Though


Siemens:
Drivers must insert their driver card into the vehicle unit before starting to drive. If the driver card is damaged, malfunctions or is lost or stolen they should print out the information relating to the periods of time recorded by the tachograph at the end of the journey and add their card number and signature to the printout. In this particular case, a driver must apply for a new card within seven days and must not drive without a card for more than 15 days. They should also make daily printouts when changing between vehicles fitted with analogue and digital tachographs. This ensures a complete record (printouts and charts) of driving activities for the current week and the last working day of the previous week.

But this seems to be a recommendation rather than law.

5

:open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

I really give up with this one;

As a matter of course there is NO requirement to take printouts on a daily (or any other time scale) from a digital tachograph. For the definitive answer go and read Articles 15 & 16 of (EC) 3821/85, they’re produced below;

Article 15

  1. Drivers shall not use dirty or damaged record sheets or
    driver cards . The sheets or driver cards shall be adequately
    protected on this account.

Where a driver wishes to renew his driver card, he shall apply to the
competent authorities of the Member State in which he has his normal
residence not later than 15 working days before the expiry date of the
card.

In case of damage to a sheet bearing recordings or driver card ,
drivers shall attach the damaged sheet or driver card to the
spare sheet used to replace it.

If the driver card is damaged, malfunctions or is lost or stolen, the driver
shall apply within seven calendar days for its replacement to the competent
authorities of the Member State in which he has his normal residence.

Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is not in the possession
of the driver, the driver shall:
(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details of the vehicle the
driver is driving, and shall enter onto that printout:
(i) details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card
or driver’s licence number), including his signature;
(ii) the periods referred to in paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and
(d);
(b) at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to
periods of time recorded by the recording equipment, record any
periods of other work, availability and rest undertaken since the
printout that was made at the start of the journey, where not
recorded by the tachograph, and mark on that document details that
enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s
licence number), including the driver’s signature.

  1. Drivers shall use the record sheets or driver cards every
    day on which they are driving, starting from the moment they take over
    the vehicle. The record sheet or driver card shall not be withdrawn
    before the end of the daily working period unless its withdrawal
    is otherwise authorized. No record sheet or driver card may be
    used to cover a period longer than that for which it is intended.

When as a result of being away from the vehicle, a driver is unable to
use the equipment fitted to the vehicle, the periods of time referred to in
paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and (d) shall:
(a) if the vehicle is fitted with recording equipment in conformity with
Annex I, be entered on the record sheet, either manually, by automatic
recording or other means, legibly and without dirtying the
sheet; or
(b) if the vehicle is fitted with recording equipment in conformity with
Annex IB, be entered onto the driver card using the manual entry
facility provided in the recording equipment.
Where there is more than one driver on board the vehicle fitted with
recording equipment in conformity with Annex IB, each driver shall
ensure that his driver card is inserted into the correct slot in the tachograph.

Drivers shall amend the record sheets as necessary should there be more
than one driver on board the vehicle, so that the information referred to
in Chapter II (1) to (3) of Annex I is recorded on the record sheet of the
driver who is actually driving.
3. Drivers shall:
– ensure that the time recorded on the sheet agrees with the official
time in the country of registration of the vehicle,
– operate the switch mechanisms enabling the following periods of
time to be recorded separately and distinctly:
(a) under the sign : driving time; (piccy of a steering wheel)

(b) ‘other work’ means any activity other than driving, as defined in
Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament
and of the Council of 11 March 2002 on the organisation of the
working time of persons performing mobile road transport activities
(1), and also any work for the same or another employer
within or outside of the transport sector, and must be recorded
under this sign ; (piccy of crossed hammers)
(c) ‘availability’ defined in Article 3(b) of Directive 2002/15/EC
must be recorded under this sign ; (piccy of square box)

(d) under the sign : breaks in work and daily rest periods. (piccy of bed)
5. Each crew member shall enter the following information on his
record sheet:
(a) on beginning to use the sheet – his surname and first name;
(b) the date and place where use of the sheet begins and the date and
place where such use ends;
(c) the registration number of each vehicle to which he is assigned, both
at the start of the first journey recorded on the sheet and then, in the
event of a change of vehicle, during use of the sheet;
(d) the odometer reading:
– at the start of the first journey recorded on the sheet,
– at the end of the last journey recorded on the sheet,
– in the event of a change of vehicle during a working day
(reading on the vehicle to which he was assigned and reading on
the vehicle to which he is to be assigned);
(e) the time of any change of vehicle.

5a. The driver shall enter in the recording equipment in conformity
with Annex IB the symbols of the countries in which he begins and
ends his daily work period. However, a Member State may require
drivers of vehicles engaged in transport operations inside its territory to
add more detailed geographic specifications to the country symbol
provided that the Member State has notified them to the Commission
before 1 April 1998 and that they do not number more than 20.
The above data entries shall be activated by the driver, and may be
entirely manual or automatic if the recording equipment is linked to a
satellite tracking system.

  1. The recording equipment defined in Annex I shall be so
    designed that it is possible for an authorized inspecting officer, if necessary
    after opening the equipment, to read the recordings relating to the
    nine hours preceding the time of the check without permanently
    deforming, damaging or soiling the sheet.
    The equipment shall, furthermore, be so designed that it is possible,
    without opening the case, to verify that recordings are being made.

  2. (a) Where the driver drives a vehicle fitted with recording equipment
    in conformity with Annex I, the driver must be able to produce,
    whenever an inspecting officer so requests:
    (i) the record sheets for the current week and those used by the
    driver in the previous 15 days;
    (ii) the driver card if he holds one, and
    (iii) any manual record and printout made during the current
    week and the previous 15 days as required under this Regulation
    and Regulation (EC) No 561/2006.
    However, after 1 January 2008, the time periods referred to under
    (i) and (iii) shall cover the current day and the previous 28 days.
    (b) Where the driver drives a vehicle fitted with recording equipment
    in conformity with Annex IB, the driver must be able to produce,
    whenever an inspecting officer so requests:
    (i) the driver card of which he is holder;
    (ii) any manual record and printout made during the current
    week and the previous 15 days as required under this Regulation
    and Regulation (EC) No 561/2006, and
    (iii) the record sheets corresponding to the same period as the
    one referred to in the previous subparagraph during which
    he drove a vehicle fitted with recording equipment in
    conformity with Annex I.
    However, after 1 January 2008, the time periods referred to under
    (ii) shall cover the current day and the previous 28 days.
    (c) An authorised inspecting officer may check compliance with
    Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 by analysis of the record sheets,
    of the displayed or printed data which have been recorded by the
    recording equipment or by the driver card or, failing this, by
    analysis of any other supporting document that justifies noncompliance
    with a provision, such as those laid down in
    Article 16(2) and (3).

  3. It shall be forbidden to falsify, suppress or destroy data recorded
    on the record sheet, stored in the recording equipment or on the driver
    card, or print-outs from the recording equipment as defined in Annex
    IB. The same applies to any manipulation of the recording equipment,
    record sheet or driver card which may result in data and/or printed information
    being falsified, suppressed or destroyed. No device which could
    be used to this effect shall be present on the vehicle.

Article 16

  1. In the event of breakdown or faulty operation of the equipment,
    the employer shall have it repaired by an approved fitter or workshop,
    as soon as circumstances permit.
    If the vehicle is unable to return to the premises within a period of one
    week calculated from the day of the breakdown or of the discovery of
    defective operation, the repair shall be carried out en route.
    Measures taken by Member States pursuant to Article 19 may give the
    competent authorities power to prohibit the use of the vehicle in cases
    where breakown or faulty operation has not been put right as provided
    in the foregoing subparagraphs.
  2. While the recording equipment is unserviceable or malfunctioning,
    drivers shall mark on the record sheet or sheets, or on a temporary sheet
    to be attached to the record sheet or to the driver card, on which he shall
    enter data enabling him to be identified (driver’s card number and/or
    name and/or driving licence number), including his signature, all information
    for the various periods of time which are no longer recorded or
    printed out correctly by the recording equipment.
    If a driver card is damaged, malfunctions or is lost or stolen, the driver
    shall, at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to the
    periods of time recorded by the recording equipment and mark on that
    document the details that enable him to be identified (the driver card
    number and/or name and/or driving licence number), including his
    signature.
  3. If a driver card is damaged or if it malfunctions, the driver shall
    return it to the competent authority of the Member State in which he has
    his normal residence. Theft of the driver card shall be the subject of a
    formal declaration to the competent authorities of the State where the
    theft occurred.
    Loss of the driver card must be reported in a formal declaration to the
    competent authorities of the State that issued it and to the competent
    authorities of the Member State of normal residence where they are
    different.
    The diver may continue to drive without a driver card for a maximum
    period of 15 calendar days or for a longer period if this is necessary for
    the vehicle to return to its premises, provided he can prove the impossibility
    of producing or using the card during this period.
    Where the authorities of the Member State in which the driver has his
    normal residence are different from those which issued his card and
    where the latter are requested to renew, replace or exchange the driver
    card, they shall inform the authorities which issued the old card of the
    precise reasons for its renewal, replacement or exchange.

So, to confirm, you only have to take printouts in the following circumstances;

When your driver card is not in your possession
when your driver card malfunctions
when you driver card is damaged
when you are delayed due to unforeseen circumstances and go over driving limits, take a printout and record full details on paper. This record must be made as soon as you reach the first available parking place (article 12).
If the tacho is faulty then you must make manual records and tacho to be fixed as soon as possible.
Finally, if Police / VOSA ask you to produce printouts when you are driving a digital vehicle - make sure you have plenty of paper the full production period could run to a roll and a half :open_mouth:

6

geebee45:
:shock: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

I really give up with this one

Would you like to borrow my avatar? :wink: :smiley:

7

tachograph:
I thought I’d read somewhere that you needed a printout if you used mixed tachographs in the same shift but I can’t find any regulations that say you have to.


Page 26 at DFT:
If the driver has to remove their driver card during the working day a manual entry
must be made when the driver next uses the vehicle or another vehicle equipped
with a digital tachograph. This allows the driver to account for all periods of time
during their daily work periods which could not be recorded directly onto the driver
card by virtue of the card not being in the recording equipment when these activities
were undertaken. In other words, drivers must still account for the period(s) of time
— within their working day — between the last card withdrawal and the current card
insertion.
If, during the daily work period the driver changes to a vehicle that has an analogue
tachograph, then the periods of work during this time period will need to be
recorded on a chart.

Though


Siemens:
Drivers must insert their driver card into the vehicle unit before starting to drive. If the driver card is damaged, malfunctions or is lost or stolen they should print out the information relating to the periods of time recorded by the tachograph at the end of the journey and add their card number and signature to the printout. In this particular case, a driver must apply for a new card within seven days and must not drive without a card for more than 15 days. They should also make daily printouts when changing between vehicles fitted with analogue and digital tachographs. This ensures a complete record (printouts and charts) of driving activities for the current week and the last working day of the previous week.

But this seems to be a recommendation rather than law.

:arrow_right: When must the driver do a print out?
:bulb: A print out must be made with mixed operations, i.e. alternately using vehicles with traditional (paper chart tachographs) and digital tachographs when the driver changes vehicles.

:bulb: A print out must be made and signed at the end of the journey when driving without a driver card, e.g. because of loss, theft or fault.

In this case the driver must obtain a new driver card within a defined period.

:exclamation: my-fis.co.uk/QuickGuides/dig … graphs.htm

Now.here a Copy of a @
:arrow_right: Thank you for your e-mail of 6 July 2007 inquiring about the use of digital tachographs, and in particular, the records and combinations of records with the existing generation of tachographs.

On your first point I would refer you to Article 26 (7) (a) and (b) of Regulation (EC) 561/2006 that requires a driver to produce, if using a vehicle fitted with recording equipment in conformity with an Annex 1 -

:bulb: (i) The record sheets for the current week and those used by the driver in the previous 15 days;

:bulb: (ii) The driver card if he holds one, and;

:bulb: (iii) Any manual record and print-out made during the current week and the previous 15 days as required under this Regulation and Regulation (EC) No 561/2006.

Where the driver drives a vehicle fitted with recording equipment in conformity with Annex 1B, the driver must be able to produce, whenever an inspecting officer so requests -

:exclamation: (i) The driver card of which he is holder;

:exclamation: (ii) Any manual record and print-out made during the current week and previous 15 days as required under this Regulation and Regulation (EC) 561/2006, and;

:exclamation: (iii) the record sheets corresponding to the same period as the one referred to in the previous subparagraph during which he drove a vehicle fitted with recording equipment in conformity with Annex 1.

I would also add that if the driver card malfunctions, then the driver should use print-outs to account for all his activities and he should make and sign a print-out at the beginning and at the end of his journey (this is also contained in the same Article described above, which amends Article 15 of 3821/85). In other words, all periods required to be accounted for, can be accounted for. Transport operators and drivers must make sure they can provide the relevant information when requested to do so.

:arrow_right: On the second point regarding self-employed or agency drivers. Firstly, there is a liability now on agencies providing drivers to transport operators, and this is set out in the provisions of Article 10 of 561/2006; secondly, in Regulation 3821/85 Article 13 sets out responsibilities of drivers and employers in respect of the recording equipment and providing an appropriate quantity of charts or print-paper (depending on the type of recording equipment). :bulb: Both operators and drivers will be committing infringements if they do not follow these rules.

The point to make is that indeed drivers and operators can, of course, break the rules, or ignore them; but they still have the responsibility, and if they are caught they will be punished. An important aspect of Regulation 561/2006 is that it now tightens up the arrangements that exist between agencies and self-employed or hired drivers. Additionally lease companies and drivers that are hired will have to comply more closely with the rules since the data now recorded and stored in the digital tachograph system must be managed in a more efficient way since it will no longer be possible to use a sheet or paper chart when using such equipment. :exclamation:

Now,and i see that as Official,and i understand that the Officer,if he requests,will see the Drivercard if i have one,Tachocharts and Printouts,as well as Manual Recording,if i have some.
But i couldn’t find that Printouts are not requiret if you are not all the Time with Vehicle on the Way who have just Digital Tachos fitted.

8

Lovlyperson:
:arrow_right: When must the driver do a print out?

AND

Lovlyperson:
Doing Printout a legal Requirement :question:

AND

Lovlyperson:
:bulb: looks like that

Now it strikes me that this might be a question of language so I’ll offer the following:
(So I’m not passing any kind of opinion. :wink: :sunglasses: )

This is copied and pasted unedited from the official English version of 561/2006 and not from any form of handbook.
(Link below.)

"Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is not in the possession of the driver, the driver shall:
(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details of the vehicle the driver is driving and shall enter onto that printout:
(i) details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including his signature;

(ii) the periods referred to in paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and (d);

(b) at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to periods of time recorded by the recording equipment, record any periods of other work, availability and rest undertaken since the printout that was made at the start of the journey, where not recorded by the tachograph, and mark on that document details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including the driver’s signature."

Since English isn’t Lovlyperson’s first language, here’s my attempt at clarifying the possible language issue:

This is copied and pasted unedited from the official German version of 561/2006 and not from any form of handbook.
(Link below.)

"Wenn eine Fahrerkarte beschädigt ist, Fehlfunktionen aufweist oder sich nicht im Besitz des Fahrers befindet, hat der Fahrer
a) zu Beginn seiner Fahrt die Angaben über das von ihm gelenkte Fahrzeug auszudrucken und in den Ausdruck
i) die Angaben, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), einzutragen und seine Unterschrift anzubringen;

ii) die in Absatz 3 zweiter Gedankenstrich Buchstaben b, c und d genannten Zeiten einzutragen;

b) am Ende seiner Fahrt die Angaben über die vom Kontrollgerät aufgezeichneten Zeiten auszudrucken, die vom Fahrtenschreiber nicht erfassten Zeiten, in denen er seit dem Erstellen des Ausdrucks bei Fahrtantritt andere Arbeiten ausgeübt hat, Bereitschaft hatte oder eine Ruhepause eingelegt hat, zu vermerken und auf diesem Dokument die Angaben einzutragen, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), sowie seine Unterschrift anzubringen."

Note for Lovlyperson: The first word in the German version is “Wenn,” so it’s a Wennsatz :wink:

Note to Moderator: I realise that English is the posting language, but this one might have gone on for a while… :laughing:

I’ve provided straight unedited quotes, both from the same source namely: Eur-lex, where EU law is published.
You can find the exact source HERE in which I selected the official EU English and German versions of 561/2006 side by side.

The German word “Wennsatz” means “conditional phrase/sentence” in English.
Missing “wenn” in German is the same as missing “if” in English.
I’ve noticed that doing that tends to leave one looking for a paddle-shop :wink:

I just hope this helps whoever voted “yes” in the poll… :wink:

9

dieseldave:

Lovlyperson:
:arrow_right: When must the driver do a print out?

AND

Lovlyperson:
Doing Printout a legal Requirement :question:

AND

Lovlyperson:
:bulb: looks like that

Now it strikes me that this might be a question of language so I’ll offer the following:
(So I’m not passing any kind of opinion. :wink: :sunglasses: )

This is copied and pasted unedited from the official English version of 561/2006 and not from any form of handbook.
(Link below.)

"Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is not in the possession of the driver, the driver shall:
(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details of the vehicle the driver is driving and shall enter onto that printout:
(i) details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including his signature;

(ii) the periods referred to in paragraph 3, second indent (b), (c) and (d);

(b) at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to periods of time recorded by the recording equipment, record any periods of other work, availability and rest undertaken since the printout that was made at the start of the journey, where not recorded by the tachograph, and mark on that document details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including the driver’s signature."

Since English isn’t Lovlyperson’s first language, here’s my attempt at clarifying the possible language issue:

This is copied and pasted unedited from the official German version of 561/2006 and not from any form of handbook.
(Link below.)

"Wenn eine Fahrerkarte beschädigt ist, Fehlfunktionen aufweist oder sich nicht im Besitz des Fahrers befindet, hat der Fahrer
a) zu Beginn seiner Fahrt die Angaben über das von ihm gelenkte Fahrzeug auszudrucken und in den Ausdruck
i) die Angaben, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), einzutragen und seine Unterschrift anzubringen;

ii) die in Absatz 3 zweiter Gedankenstrich Buchstaben b, c und d genannten Zeiten einzutragen;

b) am Ende seiner Fahrt die Angaben über die vom Kontrollgerät aufgezeichneten Zeiten auszudrucken, die vom Fahrtenschreiber nicht erfassten Zeiten, in denen er seit dem Erstellen des Ausdrucks bei Fahrtantritt andere Arbeiten ausgeübt hat, Bereitschaft hatte oder eine Ruhepause eingelegt hat, zu vermerken und auf diesem Dokument die Angaben einzutragen, mit denen der Fahrer identifiziert werden kann (Name, Nummer der Fahrerkarte oder des Führerscheins), sowie seine Unterschrift anzubringen."

Note for Lovlyperson: The first word in the German version is “Wenn,” so it’s a Wennsatz :wink:

Note to Moderator: I realise that English is the posting language, but this one might have gone on for a while… :laughing:

I’ve provided straight unedited quotes, both from the same source namely: Eur-lex, where EU law is published.
You can find the exact source HERE in which I selected the official EU English and German versions of 561/2006 side by side.

The German word “Wennsatz” means “conditional phrase/sentence” in English.
Missing “wenn” in German is the same as missing “if” in English.
I’ve noticed that doing that tends to leave one looking for a paddle-shop :wink:

I just hope this helps whoever voted “yes” in the poll… :wink:

SORRY,isn’t a Question of Language
NO
:bulb: it’s a Copy of a British Website,writen in English ,as well,the second,a Copy of a Email written in English from a Officer,of her Mayesty i expect:!:

10

Lovlyperson:
SORRY,isn’t a Question of Language
NO
:bulb: it’s a Copy of a British Website,writen in English ,as well,the second,a Copy of a Email written in English from a Officer,of her Mayesty i expect :exclamation:

Lovlyperson, that is the reason I DIDN’T give an opinion.

Even if the person who wrote what you read is an officer of HM the Queen, he has given an opinion. It is only guidance.

What I posted is the law itself. It’s from the EU law website and written in any EU language you want to choose.
If you click the LINK I gave, please read Artikel 29 very near the end of the document.[/b]
I didn’t write that document, so it’s NOT my opinion.
It is exactly what a judge would look at in a court.
It’s your choice which one you want to believe, but I think the answer to your question still starts with “Wenn…” :wink:

11

Lovlyperson:
:exclamation: my-fis.co.uk/QuickGuides/dig … graphs.htm

The page information shows that the Siemens page linked to above was last updated on 16 March 2004 a long time before the digital tachograph became law for new vehicles which if my memory serves me correctly was towards the end of 2005 (I stand to be corrected If that’s wrong), and even longer before the latest regulations came into force in April 2007

Lovlyperson:
Now,and i see that as Official,and i understand that the Officer,if he requests,will see the Drivercard if i have one,Tachocharts and Printouts,as well as Manual Recording,if i have some.
But i couldn’t find that Printouts are not requiret if you are not all the Time with Vehicle on the Way who have just Digital Tachos fitted.

The regulations only say what you should do, the fact that they don’t say that printouts are needed for mixed tachograph operations means that you don’t need them.

Siemens seemed to be saying that you should do a printout when changing to an analogue tachograph in order to be able to produce complete records of activities, but of course a printout still wouldn’t show what was being done between changing vehicles, but this should be manually recorded on a chart if changing to an analogue tacho and entered onto the driver card with a manual entry if changing to a digital tacho, so if you were to be stopped and have the records (charts & driver card) checked the whole period of time away from a vehicle would be accounted for without a printout.