Good Morning and Hello as this is my first ever post on your forum!
Mods - please move this if its in the wrong section
I’m totally and utterly confused over what I am allowed to do with or without operators licence etc:
I passed my car test back in 1984 and have C1E classification on my licence. This I think allows me to drive a combined weight not exceeding 12t.
Some references I have looked at say this is 8.2t not 12t.
The use of the vehicle will be purely for my own goods - not for hire or reward. So does this mean I don’t have to use tacho or need an Operators licence.
It could be that upto 8.2t I can drive without tacho/O licence but between 8.2t and 12t I would need to?
Some drive “recovery” (flatbed/beavertail) trucks on MOT exemption too - but I think that’s just taking the p*ss as I’m sure the exemption there is for spec frame only type!!!
Arghhhhhh
I do NOT wish to get into any trouble and wish to stay legal.
Please don’t flame me for not knowing - I have tried all manner of searches but get contrasting/confusing information.
Your free pre 1997 C1+E with its 107 restriction code allows you to drive a combination where the GVW of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer does not exceed 8250 kgs when added together = that is the total of the two plated weights not actual weights
Examples for C1+E 107 …
Vehicle GVW 7500 + trailer 750 MAM
GVW 6000 + 2250 MAM
GVW 5000 + 3250 MAM
Tacho regs do have some exemptions where the combination is not more than 7500 kgs
O licence also has certain exemptions
To see if any exemptions apply the actual job being done needs to be clear and how far from base travelled at any time
1of our drivers got pulled by vosa in a 7.5t canter which was empty so weighed at3.65t. He was towing a 1.5t digger, so the whole outfit with trailer weighed 5.85t. He had a pre1997 licence and had to leave the loaded trailer in the check point for another vehicle to pick. Vosa say that he can only tow 0.75t behind the lorry
Just to clarify - this is where exemptions become difficult as the webpages talk about “work” and “employees” and when your “business” uses vehicles yada yada - this is purely movement of my own cars from point a to point b (could be in connection with my business or not - as no one could prove either way if that makes any sense?) and as I’ve seen there’s distance restrictions - so not more than a certain distance from base (seems to be 50km radius?).
Maybe I’ve confused things too much - the not for hire or reward should negate the O licence requirements as it’s just me and my cars and there’s never going to be employees. I think this would be so much easier if I was running a business and needed to fulfil obligations of xyz. What I’m doing is looking to see if I can run a 7.5t recivery style truck with my licence and be treated as a “big car” or “big van” as tacho not required and o licence not requred - it’s just your average Joe moving his own stuff about.
The issue that I didnt clarify in my initial posting is that the website pages always tell you what you HAVE to do but they dont exactly tell you what the exemptionss to that rule are - so it’s down to someone who knows for sure what the rules are.
Maybe its a simple phone call to DVSA but I feel a little exposed “well officer, John Smith at your branch in xyz town said blah blah blah”… oh can you prove it - er… no. Right then, pants down.
Maybe I shoudl just do a business thing and it’s cleaner and easier all round…
Thank you to all who have replied - it’s a minefield and I feel like I’m somehow trying to cheat the system but why shoudl jump through all the hoops when exemptions are there ready to be used… I just need to be 100% sure and 100% skweaky clean!
Stu
ps As JJ transport pointed out - how the hell are you supposed to know that the trailer combo is outside scope?
Rog - I’m confused on the weights there… the 107 is where some are saying 8250Kgs… so a plated 7.5t truck with a plated 3.5t trailer is WAAAAAY over…■■■■!!! This is where the jjtransport fella fell down I guess? So this is where Iveco 6t + trailer works… gotcha!
Hi Dan - yes I’m talking my own cars but no reward or hire so no one elses stuff - just mine.
A856Brown - this is the confusion zone… the webpage I have seen before and talks about work/employees/business etc…
It all equals confusion… but I am clear on weights - its the 107 restriction that kills the 12t max (I’d have to sit another test - class2 to get that and then its cpc and o licence and I may as well have a haulage biz and go whole hog and class 1) then haul some serious stuff about…
It appears I will need to carry my own cars on the body of the truck - so maybe a twin deck 7.5t with unladed weight of say 4t leaving a payload of 3.5t between the two cars. If a spec lift was added - I don’t know if the added unladen weight + the 8250 max would work out… arghhhhh…
Haven’t read it all but if the truck is on trade/business insurance even if you owned the cars and ‘said’ it was personal use it would fall foul of the being used in connection with a business.
With the trailer towing tachograph rules, as you can imagine, every trailer with a car on they pull is being moved for a sister/mate and will be claimed to be personal/private use. From what I have heard from various people VOSA aren’t accepting this if the tow vehicle is on trade/business insurance, citing ‘use in connection with a business’. Some people who are genuinely transporting a mate’s car, as a favour, have been caught by this.
Which ever way you finesse it though you need an operator’s licence there is no relevant exemption. Moving your own stuff, be it cars or whatever, in connection with a business, requires a restricted operator’s licence.
You will not be able to tow anything meaningful, to be worth bothering, with a pre-1997 car licence.
I’m not a fan of unnecessary rules and regulations and where exemptions exist they should be used and in the course of running pretty much all businesses it will occasionally be necessary to bend rules at the edges and in grey areas.
However, your whole post reeks a bit of trying to do things on the cheap and I would strongly suspect that attitude would extend to the maintenance of the vehicle and this is the reason for operator’s licencing .
If using a 7.5 tonner for a private purpose only then it does not come under any of the regs - same as those using such for private horseboxes
The max trailer plated MAM you can tow with a 7.5 is only 750 kgs on your pre 97 C1+E so that’s not much use and if you did tow any trailer with it then it will come under tacho regs because it puts the overall MAM over 7.5 tonnes
Commercial use is generally defined as the making or intending to make a profit
What is the end purpose of moving all your cars? - to sell them?
Thank you for the posts… it does seem there’s not much lea-way inbetween the legislation then…
Rog - I originally was thinking of doing shows as I have done this previously and have been involved mainly with vintage stuff all my life…then thought “what if” I then used the 7.5t to move around cars that I could sell. But then it’d be for profit and come under hire or reward - which I can see BUT if I buy an old barn find and spend 6months working on it and drive it around I gain a reward as I’d love it. THen if I sold it I’d make profit so would be rewarded again - so either way whatever anyone does - its for some kind of reward or they wouldnt do it… not necessarily monetary but then how does a driver (or the authorities) prove either way whether or not a reward of some kind should therefore be classed as business use. A very grey area.
Own Account Driver
Thank you for your reply and your presonal comment on my ability/attitude to maintain my transport. EVERY vehicle I have EVER owned has NEVER been to a main dealer or indy for work…only for tests. To that end, my experience extands across 3 decades and a whole myriad of vehicle types - so your assumptions about doing things “on the cheap” are quite correct regarding the movement of vehicles - I’d rather keep that to myself and do it myself and as it’s not inline with a business I didnt think it necessary for all the paperwork etc - but regarding the upkeep…well, the fit for purpose element - it’d be more than likely better than anything you currently drive if you pay for someone else to do the maintenance - so please don’t use your own values system as an over-lay against others
But I do thank you for your observations.
Thank you to all once again! I am clear on what’s needed!!!
This forum is great and I thank each and every one of you for your input
doing up a private vehicle then selling it months later is not a business unless you do this sort of thing on a regular basis with the intent to make a partial living from it
ROG:
doing up a private vehicle then selling it months later is not a business unless you do this sort of thing on a regular basis with the intent to make a partial living from it
Don’t need a 7.5 tonner for that though do you really?
The comment about doing it on the cheap isn’t quite right - because I drive a disco 3 and coul djust buy a £2k trailer - what I was trying to do was something “better”… which is not cheaper but would be safer - but the law is riddled with clauses and of all kinds and in my attempts to do something better and safer for everyone, it’s deemed that I should be castigated as wanting to be sneaky and find loop holes…
Plain as day that’s all there is to it.
Sadly the world we live in is riddled with all kinds…
If you are just doing cars and old ones at that, a 3.5 tonner with an alloy body would surely be the best route? Granted, you will not be able to carry two at a time.
