im new to this site,so hi guys 
i need an expert opinion/advice on a load i picked up today in my artic box trailer.i arrived at a building site to collect 23 empty 50gallon drums that had previously contained a hazardous material.oh yeah,i am adr trained.i questioned whether i should take the drums as they were loose and not on pallets.i was assured by phone that it was totally legal.is it? i was given the rellevant trem cards and waste transfer note.i then again made a phone call to question the note,im new to hazardous waste.i was assured it was ok and i could run with it.on arriving at the waste transfer station i was made aware of these issues by the friendly and amazed foreman a)the barrels should be securely palletised b)the drums werent labelled as being empty,they had the original product haz labels etc c)the waste transfer note was incorrect and didnt specify what was in the drums,infact it didnt tally with alot,apart from the addresses,vehicle reg,signatures etc so,where would i have stood if id been pulled by vosa?? baring in mind id phoned the waste management company who arrranged the collection before i set off ,with my concerns.thanks.
Iâll leave Dave to give the âdefinitiveâ answer, but I can understand the âlogicâ behind a need to label Hazardous containers as empty (if there is one).
Just imagine if you âlostâ a drum, or if the vehicle turned over, drums scattered everywhere, and you being in a condition that you were unable to communicate.
The Emergency Services arrive. They are confronted by a drum/drums that are labelled as containing Hazardous material. The stopper is missing and the drum/drums is/are empty.
What are they to do? If they âassumeâ that they were empty prior to the incident, then, in our current litigious climate, it would be unwise. They HAVE to work on the assumtion that they were full, and if that then requires the closure of a road, the evacuation of premises, the blocking/diverting of water courses, the closure of sluices accessing leisure facilities on canals or lakes, or even the removal of fishermen from their âday ticketâ pursuits, then it has to be done.
How much easier it would have been if the drum/drums had been labelled as âemptyâ.
R.D:
im new to this site,so hi guys
Hi RD, WELCOME
Iâd need the details from the transport document: UN number + Proper Shipping Name + Class (+ Packing Group if given) before I could venture anything definitive on this.
Next, we must realise that there are two completely separate sets of Regs to be considered. Waste is tricky, so I really do need the info from above please.
As Krankee said, thereâs all sorts of ramifications with dangerous wastes, the Environment Agency also has a big stick, just like VOSA. 
As I said, two sets of Regs.
thanks krankee,my thoughts exactly,thats why i questioned it.i got the impression that the people i was dealing with didnt know or care much! they just wanted to get the stuff shifted.like i pointed out to them,its my licence and ive gotta deal with things if it all goes wrong.luckily it didnt 
hi dave,thanks for the welcome and for replying so quickly,do you ever sleep? 
sadly,ive handed in all of my paperwork and i cant remember the details,altho i may be able to take a sneaky look on monday 
when i got back to the yard last night my boss told me that the company we did the work for were impressed with the way the job went.impressed? i told him it was a total shambles from start to finish.i told him not to give me similar work again as i wasnt comfortable with the with the way it was run.my boss assured me that he`d spoken to a dgsa later on in the day and he had said everything was ok.when i questioned it he clammed up.i think he just said that to keep me sweet 
ah well,its off the truck and im sat at home.roll on next weekâŚnot.
R.D:
thanks krankee,my thoughts exactly,thats why i questioned it.i got the impression that the people i was dealing with didnt know or care much! they just wanted to get the stuff shifted.like i pointed out to them,its my licence and ive gotta deal with things if it all goes wrong.luckily it didnt
Excellent point RD. Itâs your licence. To be fair, your boss also has a lot to concern him when they ask you to carry this type of stuff. The customer also has a lot of responsibility in this as well, as does the firm where you dump the stuff.
RD:
hi dave,thanks for the welcome and for replying so quickly,do you ever sleep?
Good idea. The transport document or waste note will have the details I need. Donât let it jeopardise your job though.
RD:
when i got back to the yard last night my boss told me that the company we did the work for were impressed with the way the job went.impressed? i told him it was a total shambles from start to finish.i told him not to give me similar work again as i wasnt comfortable with the with the way it was run.
I guess the customer was impressed that it got there safely and in good time.
RD:
my boss assured me that he`d spoken to a dgsa later on in the day and he had said everything was ok.when i questioned it he clammed up.i think he just said that to keep me sweet
Maybe your boss did consult a DGSA. Legally he has to have at least access to a DGSA to comply with the ADR part of it. Your boss doesnât have to be a DGSA himself though. That might be why he clammed up, when you asked for details. The problem with a some bosses is that they donât understand the content of an ADR course, or what a DGSA actually does, so many of them of them say to a driver âyou had ADR training so you must know about it.â
As I said, I canât really comment until I know the details. Please note, Iâll be away from Sun until Thu this coming week, possibly without internet access, but I can answer your questions from Fri onwards.
hi there dave i had a quick scan of the documents this morning,but my boss was sat 2ft away,and gave me a what are you doing kinda look all i can remember is that the un number was 1760 packing group 3 class 8.sadlly,i cant remember the shipping name,some detective i am eh? any guidance you can give will be greatly appreciated,but as the job is done and dusted now its no big deal.but if you wanna leave me your phone number for next timeâŚ
R.D:
hi there dave i had a quick scan of the documents this morning,but my boss was sat 2ft away,and gave me awhat are you doingkinda look
Hi R.D Youâre a good detective!
UN 1760 is an N.O.S. entry. (N.O.S. = Not Otherwise Specified) So, the âstuffâ you carried was generally âa corrosive liquid.â Thereâs loads of technical stuff required for the carriage of NOS entries, but you were able to say that it was UN Class 8 and PGIII, so now we know (mostly) whatâs what with it.
As far as ADR is concerned, your load of 23 empty 200ltr drums was in Transport Category 4 (No ADR boards, Tremcards or ADR licence required.) You did need a âtransport documentâ and a 2kg dry powder fire-extinguisher. Assuming you had the extinguisher, your transport document could have been the waste consignment note, because a waste consignment note normally exceeds ADRâs minimum info requirements for a âtransport document.â
As far a the Dangerous Waste Regs are concerned, You should only have collected from a registered consignor, and then taken the âstuffâ to a registered disposal point. Your company should also be a registered waste carrier and you should have had proof of registration with you. The consignment should have been carried out with a correctly filled-in âWaste consignment note.â All these âregistrationsâ should be with the Environment Agency (EA.)
For full compliance,, you also needed a UN Class 8 label and the UN number on each drum, and the drums should have had proper closures (bungs) in place. A thing ADR calls âSP274â applied to this movement, which means that some extra info was required on the transport document relating to the ingredients of your âcorrosive liquid.â
I hope this helps.
thanks dave youre a legend :smiley: i can access this site through my mobile phone,so if im unfortunate to be in the same position again ill have all the info to hand.it seems to me that my concerns were justified.and who said drivers were fik? i had the fire extinguisher and we are registered to carry waste,but i didnt have a document to prove it.the waste note wasnt filled out properly either.no labels on the drums,make shift bungs,the list goes on.good job i didnt get stopped thanks for taking the time out to help me r.d
R.D:
thanks dave i had the fire extinguisher
Approved type? (British Standards or CE markings?)
Fitted with seal and pin?
Inspection sticker showing next due date of inspection?
R.D:
and we are registered to carry waste,but i didnt have a document to prove it.
How did you know? ( Because the boss said so 
)
Your boss knows perfectly well that evidence of registration MUST be carried on the vehicle. Itâs a condition of holding a waste carrierâs licence.
R.D:
the waste note wasnt filled out properly either.no labels on the drums,make shift bungs,the list goes on.good job i didnt get stopped
Time out to help is no problem R.D. Blimey. I didnât realise it was quite that bad. These are fairly serious.
What really amazes me is that your boss seems to have gone along with the consignorâs wishes. (Thatâs if they told him.) Youâd have been within your rights to have refused to carry that consignment- no labels and no bungs should be fairly obvious to a driver. Imagine if the waste had been toxic, rather than corrosive? (Dangerous wastes are covered on day 1 of an ADR course for this reason.) You should have told your boss at that stage, and he should have pulled you out of that job to protect his own and your interests. Did you phone him once you saw the problems?
hi dave the extinguishers are ok,theyre checked regularly.we have got a waste carriers licence,i take a copy with me when i take normal industrial waste to the tip,does 1 licence cover all? i dont keep a copy in my truck tho,and as i was given the job over the phone whilst i was out on another job,i couldnt get a copy.not that i knew i had to carry it :confused: there was only a few makeshift bungs and a few worn labels,it wasnt as bad as i made it sound.but do they need extra labels other than original ones? they had product info etc.i knew it was only corrisives and not toxics tho,i spoke to the blokes whod used it,they used it fixing water towers,so it wouldnt be toxic but like i said,i did phone the waste management company with a few queries,and they said it was all ok.the more i go over this the worse it sounds.wheres my gun?
R.D:
hi dave the extinguishers are ok,they`re checked regularly.we have got a waste carriers licence,i take a copy with me when i take normal industrial waste to the tip,does 1 licence cover all?
Good question. Iâll edit this post once I check with a wastes specialist.
R.D:
but do they need extra labels other than original ones?
No, the originals are all thatâs required. Some firms do put an extra âemptyâ label on packages/receptacles for empties, but thatâs company policy not a legal requirement. Some companies also leave the empties in their original Transport Category (as if they were still full) and use ADR trained drivers for all work. Again, this isnât a legal requirement, but it can be a company policy. Almost all empties are regarded as being in Transport Category 4, so are normally unlimited in number. Your transport document does need the word âemptyâ and a couple of other things written on it though.
R.D:
they had product info etc.i knew it was only corrisives and not toxics tho,i spoke to the blokes who`d used it,they used it fixing water towers,so it wouldnt be toxic
For ADR, the product info has no real relevance. (Did you mean a Tremcard or IIW??) I only mentioned toxic to bring home the point of not carrying drums without proper bungs in place. You and your boss would have been in trouble if youâd been checked. IMHO, your boss should have phoned the waste management company before agreeing with the consignor that heâd do the job. Stable doors and horsesâ â ? IMHO, you ought to have raised the issue of the missing labels and bungs with your boss before letting the consignor commence loading your truck.