GURU help please

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Been trying to work out if this is legal or not as I was presented with this question…

I won’t go into a long story but just present the facts - who said good :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Regular job (A) in warehouse Mon to Fri 2pm to 10pm and every other Saturday from 8am to 4pm

Extra temp job (B) for different employer driving C1 from 6am to noon Mon to Fri under EU regs

He will fill in a seperate tacho card for every shift done in job (A) with name,date, start & finish time.

The weekly rest is ok - 38 off then 56 off (repeating)

Job (A) is under the normal WTD
Job (B) is under RT(WTD)R

Do the daily rest requirements need to be complied with ?

Does the 48 hour average need to be complied with ?

I do not know how this works when there are TWO seperate jobs under THREE different sets of regs.

2

Can’t speak for the “Guru” but I’ll try to answer anyway :wink:

ROG:
Been trying to work out if this is legal or not as I was presented with this question…

I won’t go into a long story but just present the facts - who said good :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

No-one said “good” … we said “thank [zb] for that” :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

ROG:
Regular job (A) in warehouse Mon to Fri 2pm to 10pm and every other Saturday from 8am to 4pm

Extra temp job (B) for different employer driving C1 from 6am to noon Mon to Fri under EU regs

He will fill in a seperate tacho card for every shift done in job (A) with name,date, start & finish time.

The weekly rest is ok - 38 off then 56 off (repeating)

Job (A) is under the normal WTD
Job (B) is under RT(WTD)R

Do the daily rest requirements need to be complied with ?

Yes on any day when driving to EU regulations

ROG:
Does the 48 hour average need to be complied with ?

I would think so as the warehouse work will be counted as “other work” but it’s not really relevant anyway as the driving regulations take priority over the WTD and the shifts described don’t comply with the tachograph regulations (daily rest requirements).

ROG:
I do not know how this works when there are TWO seperate jobs under THREE different sets of regs.

Forget the WTD just think about the driving and tachograph regulations :wink:

Basically what you’re saying is that he will be working from 06:00 to 22:00 Monday to Friday with a 2 hour rest period between 12:00 and 14:00.

Read it that way ROG and I’m sure you’ll see that it can’t be done legally as there will only be an 8 hour daily rest period between 22:00 and 06:00.

It makes not the slightest difference that the work will be done for different employers, and the WTD is the last thing this person will need to worry about.

He’ll be working to EU regulations in the morning so the warehouse work in the afternoons will be classed as other work and the daily rest requirements will need to be complied with.

There seems little point in discussing the charts or the Saturday work as the shift pattern you describe can’t be legally done anyway.
Whether or not it could be done safely on a regular basis is another question :wink:

3

ROG:
Do the daily rest requirements need to be complied with ?

tachograph:
Yes on any day when driving to EU regulations

That’s the important bit that I did not know - do now - thanks.

I’ll inform him that the only hours he can do for (B) is 7am to 11am and not 6am to noon for the 561/2006 regs but does the 48 hour average then stop him ?

4

Whether or not the WTD would stop anyone doing anything isn’t for me to say, but if you’re asking if he will be subject to the WTD for mobile workers then:

The long answer is:

If the warehouse company are involved in road transport activities within scope of EU regulations then the time spent working for that company will count towards the 48 hour week and all other rules for the WTD for mobile workers regardless of whether or not he is involved in driving.

However.

If the warehouse company are not involved in road transport that falls in-scope of EU regulations he will still be subject to EU regulations for the day, so will still be subject to the conditions laid down in the WTD for mobile workers (IMO).

The short answer is:

Yes (IMO).

5

ROG:
He will fill in a seperate tacho card for every shift done in job (A) with name,date, start & finish time.

I’m not sure if that would be legal and don’t have time right now to go into any depth looking into the question, but off-hand I would have thought that as the warehouse work will count as “other work” he would need to do manual entries on the chart for the time spent away from the vehicle which would include the warehouse work.

I certainly wouldn’t advise anyone to do as you describe without looking into it further, working for another company on none driving days is one thing but working for another company on days that you drive in-scope of EU regulations is likely to have different consequences.

6

ROG:

ROG:
Do the daily rest requirements need to be complied with ?

tachograph:
Yes on any day when driving to EU regulations

That’s the important bit that I did not know - do now - thanks.

I thought you knew that, it is mentioned every time someone asks a question on mixing two jobs, Weekly rests for weeks in which you drive and daily rest for days you drive.

ROG:
I’ll inform him that the only hours he can do for (B) is 7am to 11am and not 6am to noon for the 561/2006 regs but does the 48 hour average then stop him ?

If you are going to do that makes sure he knows the importance of the 11:00 - 14:00 period, it has to be at least 3 hours and he can’t be finishing at 11:05 or 11:10 for instance.

Work for his main job does not count as work for the WTD for mobile workers. Even if his main job is in a transport company, if he doesn’t drive for them he won’t be a mobile worker so will be working to the regular flavour WTD, you did say he was regular WTD for that job. You can be employed by a transport company but not come under the RT(WTD)R if your work means you don’t drive or travel in vehicles which come within the scope of the RT(WTD)R.

7

tachograph:

ROG:
He will fill in a seperate tacho card for every shift done in job (A) with name,date, start & finish time.

I’m not sure if that would be legal and don’t have time right now to go into any depth looking into the question, but off-hand I would have thought that as the warehouse work will count as “other work” he would need to do manual entries on the chart for the time spent away from the vehicle which would include the warehouse work.

I certainly wouldn’t advise anyone to do as you describe without looking into it further, working for another company on none driving days is one thing but working for another company on days that you drive in-scope of EU regulations is likely to have different consequences.

I agree, that work is all part of the same shift for EU regs so I think it should be recorded on the same chart or by means of a manual entry on a digi tachograph.

tachograph:
I certainly wouldn’t advise anyone to do as you describe without looking into it further, working for another company on none driving days is one thing but working for another company on days that you drive in-scope of EU regulations is likely to have different consequences.

I agree he should seek further advice from VOSA as it is a lot more complicated than working for two companies on separate days. The fact he will finish in one location and start in another the next day could bring in the travelling thing, meaning less time for work overall than 07:00 - 22:00 with a 3 hour rest.

8

You are not planning on sending the wife out to work are you Rog? :laughing: , keeping manner accustomed etc :wink:

9

Coffeeholic:
Work for his main job does not count as work for the WTD for mobile workers. Even if his main job is in a transport company as he doesn’t drive for them he won’t be a mobile worker so will be working to the regular flavour WTD, you did say he was regular WTD for that job. You can be employed by a transport company but not come under the RT(WTD)R if your work means you don’t drive or travel in vehicles which come within the scope of the RT(WTD)R.

On reflection I agree, I was looking at the quote bellow but of course you’re right that you wouldn’t be classed as a mobile worker if not involved in the transport.

I stand corrected :blush:

What counts as working time?

Work carried out for another employer (who undertakes road transport activities within scope of the European drivers’ hours rules) counts towards the total working time performed by the mobile worker.

10

The main job (A) is not transport related

I though this one was going to be a bit complicated.

Coffeeholic:
I agree he should seek further advice from VOSA

Hope geebee45 sees this :slight_smile:

Wheel Nut:
You are not planning on sending the wife out to work are you Rog? :laughing: , keeping manner accustomed etc :wink:

She already has a full time well paid job :smiley:

11

there an easy answer to this and it this EU regs take precedence and therefore there would have to make records for the day as the day does not finish till 22.00 hours all daily rests would have to be met as would weekly ones two

and with regards the 48 hours working average as the employee got and opt out in place at is main job if he as then your mate would be OK regards that, if not then the working time 48 average would still apply

ROG:
He will fill in a seperate tacho card for every shift done in job (A) with name,date, start & finish time.

with regard this in fact it should go on he chart from company (B) as that the one is for EU regs and this info would be required by employer (B)

and also the employee must tell each employer the hours there are working for each employer

12

delboytwo:
and with regards the 48 hours working average as the employee got and opt out in place at is main job if he as then your mate would be OK regards that, if not then the working time 48 average would still apply

Is there still an opt out option for the WTD?

EDIT
That was easy - YES THERE IS

And he is opted out of WTD :smiley:

13

ROG:
And he is opted out of WTD :smiley:

so he as signed an opt out and as a copy of said opt out

in the WTD you must sign it your self

Opting out of the 48 hour week

If you are 18 or over and wish to work more than 48 hours a week, you can choose to opt out of the 48 hour limit. This must be voluntary and in writing. It can’t be an agreement with the whole workforce and you shouldn’t be sacked or unfairly treated (for example refused promotion or overtime) for refusing to sign an opt-out.

If you sign an opt-out, you have the right to cancel this agreement at any time by giving between one week and three months’ notice. You can agree this notice period with your employer when you sign the opt-out. If no notice period is agreed then you only need to give one week’s notice of cancellation. You can cancel an opt-out even if it’s part of a contract you have signed.
Example of opt-out agreement

I (name) agree that I may work for more than an average of 48 hours a week. If I change my mind, I will give my employer (amount of time - up to three months) notice in writing to end this agreement.

Signed………
Dated…………

14

ROG:

delboytwo:
and with regards the 48 hours working average as the employee got and opt out in place at is main job if he as then your mate would be OK regards that, if not then the working time 48 average would still apply

Is there still an opt out option for the WTD?

EDIT
That was easy - YES THERE IS

And he is opted out of WTD :smiley:

So his main job hours don’t count toward our WTD and due to his opt out his driving hours don’t count toward the regular folks WTD so he is sorted on that score. Just the problems for EU regs to sort out.

15

Yes Del, he has got that piece of paper :smiley:

Thanks Neil - will now give him the info from this thread

I reckon it will be a non-starter as he was specific about the times of 6am to noon.

thanks again all :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

16

Given the original information that the driver works as a C1 driver 06:00>12:00 Monday thru Friday and as a warehouse person 14:00>22:00 Monday thru Friday and alternate Saturdays 08:00>16:00, as other have already pointed out, he has problems. The main one being insufficient daily rest on driving days. The easy way to resolve this is to start an hour later at the transport company or finish an hour earlier with the warehouse.

As he’s ‘opted out’ from HAD and he’s not part of the ‘travelling staff’ there isn’t a problem with his warehouse work and transport work going over the 48 hour limit. As the warehouse duties don’t appear to be transport related (not travelling staff), those hours won’t count towards the 60 hours maximum / 48 hours average allowed under RT(WT)R.

Records of the warehouse work go on the back of his tachograph chart that he used whilst driving the C1 vehicle, or are made on the driver card using the manual entry facility when it is inserted into the VU the following morning. The charts (if used) get handed to the transport company. He can declare his ours worked to the warehouse company if he wishes, but the Transport company know of his warehouse hours because of the manual records, he might want to inform them that the warehouse work doesn’t count towards RT(WT)R.

Just a thought, does he really want to be working 70 hours one week and 78 the next? Whilst per se this may not be illegal both employers have a ‘duty of care’ towards their employee and he also has a ‘duty’ to ensure the health and wellbeing of his co-workers. If there was an incident and HSE were involved they may look at the combined work patten. Not that long ago an employer was held to be negligent in allowing an employee to drive home having completed ‘back to back’ shifts in a food factory. There was a fatal collision following the factory worker ‘nodding off’ at the wheel of his car which cost the food company many tens of thousands.

17

Thanks for you reply geebee45

I gather that if he did 7am to 1pm as the six hours then this would be ok ?
ask as he only gets 9 hours off in every 24 and no split daily rests

I did note your excessive work hours warning but to be honest I did more hours than those when I was his age :smiley:

18

I’ve got a warm fuzzy feeling now, geebee’s answer was the same as the answers I came up with. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :sunglasses:

19

geebee45:
Given the original information that the driver works as a C1 driver 06:00>12:00 Monday thru Friday and as a warehouse person 14:00>22:00 Monday thru Friday and alternate Saturdays 08:00>16:00, as other have already pointed out, he has problems. The main one being insufficient daily rest on driving days. The easy way to resolve this is to start an hour later at the transport company or finish an hour earlier with the warehouse.

That would only be good on three of the days each week would it not? The other two days he would need 11 hours rest so would need to lose a total of 3 hours of the ‘shift’ rather than just one? Unless he can work split daily rest periods in.