Got it wrong again Dad

[scaniason]

Just downloaded my tacho card, and got flagged up with a Very Serious violation for insufficient weekly rest last week.

2 weeks ago I had a full 45, then ran out on Sunday afternoon. I worked until Thursday afternoon (1730), then went on leave for Friday, and did a shift on Saturday (started 1009, until 1942). Was then off until Monday morning at 6, and worked until Friday evening at 1915.

The violation is for insufficient rest between Saturday evening and Monday morning, but my way of thinking was that Thursday - Saturday was a reduced rest of about 40 hours, and Sunday was a rest which compensated for the missing 5, plus a load more. I’m on a 45 this weekend (will be closer to 59), then I’ve got a normal M-F week ahead.

Can anybody throw some light on how I’ve managed to screw it up please? If I’ve definitely dropped off this far, it looks like I’m way outside the normal GFP guidelines!

Thanks

Gary

[leo_saphira]

Leave on thr friday is considered as normal working day of x timrs hours.l and not towards ‘rest’

[loopyjuice]

even if friday was “leave”/holiday you have done nothing wrong by reducing your weekly rest as long as you didnt have to have any paid back by the end of the w/end.

[scaniason]

I know leave is counted as 8 hours towards the WTD calculations, but thought it was counted as rest for tacho regs? Surely otherwise a 2 week holiday would give you an infringement for insufficient rest, which would be self-contradictory…

[wiretwister]

leo.saphira:
Leave on thr friday is considered as normal working day of x timrs hours.l and not towards ‘rest’

The tacho heads I am familiar with have 3 options drive/other work, POA (spit) and rest. What one would you advise correct for “leave”?

[leo_saphira]

Holiday/leave is classed as ‘other work’ on wtd. I got busted in xmas 2012 for the same thing thinking i can use holiday as rest but its not as your getting paid for it.

[tachograph]

scaniason:
Just downloaded my tacho card, and got flagged up with a Very Serious violation for insufficient weekly rest last week.

2 weeks ago I had a full 45, then ran out on Sunday afternoon. I worked until Thursday afternoon (1730), then went on leave for Friday, and did a shift on Saturday (started 1009, until 1942). Was then off until Monday morning at 6, and worked until Friday evening at 1915.

The violation is for insufficient rest between Saturday evening and Monday morning, but my way of thinking was that Thursday - Saturday was a reduced rest of about 40 hours, and Sunday was a rest which compensated for the missing 5, plus a load more. I’m on a 45 this weekend (will be closer to 59), then I’ve got a normal M-F week ahead.

Can anybody throw some light on how I’ve managed to screw it up please? If I’ve definitely dropped off this far, it looks like I’m way outside the normal GFP guidelines!

Thanks

Gary

Firstly lets get rid of this leave isn’t rest stuff, it doesn’t matter whether you’re on holiday or off sick or just having a day off for the sake of it, if you’re not at work you’re on a rest period and as far as the tachograph regulations are concerned and it counts as part of your weekly rest period.

If I’m understanding this correctly, you had a full 45 hour weekly rest period then had approximately 40 hours the following week, this is perfectly legal and you should not get an infringement for it.

You can have a reduced weekly rest period every second week and as long as you pay back the compensation in the correct time frame it’s perfectly legal.

In your case from 17:30 Thursday to 10:09 Saturday you had 40 hours and 39 minutes reduced weekly rest.
From 19:42 Saturday to 06:00 Monday you had another rest period of 34 hours and 18 minutes, this was the compensation for the reduced weekly rest period plus another reduced weekly rest period of over 24 hours that allows you to start another six periods of 24 hours.

From what you’ve posted you should not have received an infringement, one question has to be considered though, remembering that the tachograph week is Monday to Sunday, are you sure you had a full weekly rest period of 45 hours the week before the reduced weekly rest period, or could you have miscalculated the time ?

[tachograph]

leo.saphira:
Holiday/leave is classed as ‘other work’ on wtd. I got busted in xmas 2012 for the same thing thinking i can use holiday as rest but its not as your getting paid for it.

The OPs problem has nothing to do with the WTD, insufficient weekly rest is an infringement under the drivers hours and tachograph regulations not the working time regulations.

For the RT(WT)R (working time regulations) a days statutory holiday counts as 8 hours towards the average 48 hour week, but holiday does not count as anything other than rest for the drivers hours and tachograph regulations (EC) 561/2006.

[wiretwister]

leo.saphira:
Holiday/leave is classed as ‘other work’ on wtd. I got busted in xmas 2012 for the same thing thinking i can use holiday as rest but its not as your getting paid for it.

I think you, or your company policy, is mixing WTD with Drivers hours regs. I 've never recorded any leave hours as other work as that would, by definition, be work and not leave. You’ld have fun explaining gaps in your tacho record after a period of leave without some other documentation like a letter of attestation or a copy of a leave request that has been authorised.

I’d also add that periods of sick absence need to be recorded, for WTD purposes but not driving hours regs, and you may not be paid for those.

[scaniason]

This hasn’t come from the company - I have tacho software at home (Globofleet), and usually have a look at my card myself.

Going through it again, I think where I’ve gone wrong is that by working on Saturday, I’ve started a new week, after a slightly reduced rest of 40 hours. Not a problem, and I compensated for it on the Sunday. However, I then did a normal week Monday to Friday, so I’ve either exceeded the 144 hour week (Saturday to Friday), or I’ve not had enough rest on Sunday to allow me to effectively start another week on Monday. Does this sound like the probably cause? I’m not worried about anything from work - it’s more how a VOSA man would react, as it has come up as a very serious rather than a minor or a serious on the analysis software, and looking through the GFP document, it’s outside the guidelines even for a £300 fine. If I get stopped, I’ll just explain it as a misunderstanding on my part and hope they’re in a good mood and got some the night before!

Gary

[tachograph]

scaniason:
Going through it again, I think where I’ve gone wrong is that by working on Saturday, I’ve started a new week, after a slightly reduced rest of 40 hours. Not a problem, and I compensated for it on the Sunday. However, I then did a normal week Monday to Friday, so I’ve either exceeded the 144 hour week (Saturday to Friday), or I’ve not had enough rest on Sunday to allow me to effectively start another week on Monday. Does this sound like the probably cause? I’m not worried about anything from work - it’s more how a VOSA man would react, as it has come up as a very serious rather than a minor or a serious on the analysis software, and looking through the GFP document, it’s outside the guidelines even for a £300 fine. If I get stopped, I’ll just explain it as a misunderstanding on my part and hope they’re in a good mood and got some the night before!

The weekly rest periods are calculated in the fixed week Monday to Friday, so the fact that you started again on Saturday has no bearing on it.

When you had over 24 hours off on Sunday you started a new period of six 24 hours (new 144 hour period), you started Monday at 06:00 after a reduced weekly rest period so could legally work until 06:00 the following Sunday before needing to start a new weekly rest period.

From what you’ve posted I can’t see that you’ve done anything wrong, so as long as you had a weekly rest period of at-least 45 consecutive hours the previous week I’ve no idea why the software would show an offence.

[wiretwister]

tachograph:
The weekly rest periods are calculated in the fixed week Monday to Friday, so the fact that you started again on Saturday has no bearing on it.

When you had over 24 hours off on Sunday you started a new period of six 24 hours (new 144 hour period), you started Monday at 06:00 after a reduced weekly rest period so could legally work until 06:00 the following Sunday before needing to start a new weekly rest period.

From what you’ve posted I can’t see that you’ve done anything wrong, so as long as you had a weekly rest period of at-least 45 consecutive hours the previous week I’ve no idea why the software would show an offence.

Far be it from me to argue with one of the real experts but wouldn’t the fact that he started the weeks shifts on Sunday PM mean that the Saturday shift was beyond the 144 hour limit? In that case then he then ran into 2 reduced weekly rests. We had a similar discussion some months back and IIRC it is legally possible but has to go back to a weekly rest period of 69 hours and span a Sunday - Monday night to allow weekly rests to be assigned to the week ending or the week starting.

[coffeeholic]

scaniason:
This hasn’t come from the company - I have tacho software at home (Globofleet), and usually have a look at my card myself.

Going through it again, I think where I’ve gone wrong is that by working on Saturday, I’ve started a new week, after a slightly reduced rest of 40 hours. Not a problem, and I compensated for it on the Sunday. However, I then did a normal week Monday to Friday, so I’ve either exceeded the 144 hour week (Saturday to Friday), or I’ve not had enough rest on Sunday to allow me to effectively start another week on Monday. Does this sound like the probably cause? I’m not worried about anything from work - it’s more how a VOSA man would react, as it has come up as a very serious rather than a minor or a serious on the analysis software, and looking through the GFP document, it’s outside the guidelines even for a £300 fine. If I get stopped, I’ll just explain it as a misunderstanding on my part and hope they’re in a good mood and got some the night before!

Gary

From the information you have detailed regarding your rest periods and start finish times the answer to this problem is clear. The software you are using for the analysis is crap.

Based on the information you have done nothing wrong. You had a regular weekly rest in one week followed by a reduced weekly rest the next, perfectly legal. You then took another reduced rest, which serves no purpose other than to prevent you exceeding 144 hours between weekly rest and can immediately compensate for the previous reduced rest, and that second reduced rest requires no compensation as it is surplus to the minimum requirements.

It wont show up as an infringement if you were stopped by VOSA if the details are as you have stated.

[tachograph]

Wiretwister:

tachograph:
The weekly rest periods are calculated in the fixed week Monday to Friday, so the fact that you started again on Saturday has no bearing on it.

When you had over 24 hours off on Sunday you started a new period of six 24 hours (new 144 hour period), you started Monday at 06:00 after a reduced weekly rest period so could legally work until 06:00 the following Sunday before needing to start a new weekly rest period.

From what you’ve posted I can’t see that you’ve done anything wrong, so as long as you had a weekly rest period of at-least 45 consecutive hours the previous week I’ve no idea why the software would show an offence.

Far be it from me to argue with one of the real experts but wouldn’t the fact that he started the weeks shifts on Sunday PM mean that the Saturday shift was beyond the 144 hour limit? In that case then he then ran into 2 reduced weekly rests. We had a similar discussion some months back and IIRC it is legally possible but has to go back to a weekly rest period of 69 hours and span a Sunday - Monday night to allow weekly rests to be assigned to the week ending or the week starting.

If I’m reading it correctly he started on the first Sunday after a full 45 hour weekly rest period, that would be the weekly rest period for what we’ll call week 1.
In week 2 he had a reduced weekly rest period on Thursday/Friday, this reset the six 24 hour periods.
He then worked Saturday of week 2, but then had another reduced weekly rest period on the Sunday which again reset the six 24 hour periods.
He then worked from 06:00 Monday to 19:15 Friday before presumably having a regular weekly rest period.

As far as I can see at no time did he go over six 24 hour periods (144 hours) between weekly rest periods, remember that once you’ve had even a reduced weekly rest period of 24 hours or more you then start a new set of six 24 hour periods (144 hours) before you need to start a new weekly rest period.

If I’m understanding correctly the OPs weeks went like this:

• Week 1. 45 hour weekly rest period ending on Sunday afternoon.
• Week 2. Reduced weekly rest period from 17:30 Thursday to 10:09 Saturday (reduced weekly rest period of 40 hours 39 minutes resets the 144 hours).
• Week 2. Reduced weekly rest period from 19:42 Saturday to 06:00 Monday (reduced weekly rest period of 34 hours 18 minutes, includes compensation for the previous reduced weekly rest period and also resets the 144 hours).
• Week 3. Starts a regular weekly rest period at 19:15 Friday.

Although you have to have a weekly rest period that at-least partly falls in each fixed week, you can go 144 hours between weekly rest periods regardless of which part of the week the weekly rest period falls in.

I suppose you could look on it as having both fixed weeks and working weeks, a fixed week is Monday to Sunday and you must have a weekly rest period that falls at-least partly in each fixed week, while a working week is the time between weekly rest periods.

[tachograph]

Coffeeholic:
From the information you have detailed regarding your rest periods and start finish times the answer to this problem is clear. The software you are using for the analysis is crap.

Good to see you still find time to visit TN sometimes

[dieseldave]

Firstly, let’s be clear… I still bow to those with a greater understanding than myself.

I’m just wondering whether the infringement could be for the rule that when a rest period spans the dividing line between two fixed weeks, you can only attach that weekly rest period to ONE of those weeks?

[tachograph]

dieseldave:
Firstly, let’s be clear… I still bow to those with a greater understanding than myself.

I’m just wondering whether the infringement could be for the rule that when a rest period spans the dividing line between two fixed weeks, you can only attach that weekly rest period to ONE of those weeks?

Makes no difference Dave, the OP had Thursday and Friday off so he already had a weekly rest period allocated to the week in question, the following reduced weekly rest period on the Sunday simply allowed him to start a new set of six 24 hour periods.
Then he started a new weekly rest period the following Friday (presumably Friday just gone) so that weeks covered to.

[dieseldave]

tachograph:

dieseldave:
Firstly, let’s be clear… I still bow to those with a greater understanding than myself.

I’m just wondering whether the infringement could be for the rule that when a rest period spans the dividing line between two fixed weeks, you can only attach that weekly rest period to ONE of those weeks?

Makes no difference Dave, the OP had Thursday and Friday off so he already had a weekly rest period allocated to the week in question, the following reduced weekly rest period on the Sunday simply allowed him to start a new set of six 24 hour periods.
Then he started a new weekly rest period the following Friday (presumably Friday just gone) so that weeks covered to.

Yes tachograph, I’d spotted that too, but my question (not very well put ) really wondered about the rest period for the week before the week in question and/or how the software hadn’t recognised the legitimacy of a correctly taken midweek rest that was compliant with 561/2006.

It seems that both you an Neil were onto it much quicker than I was, but that doesn’t surprise me.

[coffeeholic]

tachograph:

Coffeeholic:
From the information you have detailed regarding your rest periods and start finish times the answer to this problem is clear. The software you are using for the analysis is crap.

Good to see you still find time to visit TN sometimes

I look in most days.

[drivingmissdaisy]

Coffeeholic:

tachograph:

Coffeeholic:
From the information you have detailed regarding your rest periods and start finish times the answer to this problem is clear. The software you are using for the analysis is crap.

Good to see you still find time to visit TN sometimes

I look in most days.

Stalker!