I am wondering how long the new Forth crossing will last , built with Chinese steel. What could possibly go wrong?
Note the bridge has collapsed in different sections…
Once again, it is hard to think that two seperate “failing metal reenforcements” could both fail at the same time, whilst leaving a center bit intact?
I am now hearing the expression “Decaying Concrete” on the mainstream media, so I’m wondering if my theory might have something to it after all.
Concrete with a high level of Calcium Carbonate, has CO2 baked out of it after years in the sun drying out, with the occasional blistering summer…
After a time, a small but significant percentage of the concrete structure itself is going to be quicklime, rather than slaked lime, which is used in “regular, fresh” concrete.
Add water to quicklime, and it slakes on the spot, heating up in the process, and crumbling to powder/paste according to how wet it is.
The fact that some sections of the bridge have not collapsed is easily explained as well: The concrete used in the center section for both the support pillar and road section itself - is of a different mix to the concrete used elsewhere on the same bridge. The unfallen sections are clearly still structurely sound, as the survivors living to tell the tale have already been grateful of.
Think: Making a clay pot on a potter’s wheel, and throwing a lump of different clay in with the mix halfway through… Is it going to strengthen the overall pot, or actually weaken it?
Is pure titanium stronger than a titanium alloy? Do ingredients get mixed in the engineering field “to make things stronger”, or “just bring down the weight”, or indeed the price? 
alamcculloch:
I am wondering how long the new Forth crossing will last , built with Chinese steel. What could possibly go wrong?
Does Chinese Steel have a different structure to any other nation’s steel?
A process of Steel Manufacture is going to be a pretty universal thing - isn’t it? If you make a batch of steel that is liable to shatter upon shock - then it ain’t steel - it is pig iron. If it’s too flexible, then it won’t hold up much weight either. The standards for steel making are pretty universal across the world.
I don’t think the Chinese are going to be palming off Pig Iron or White Cast Iron as “Commie’s Finest Steel” somehow.
Making the steel is a universal thing then, and removing any undesired impurities beyond that manufacturing process - involves metallurgy rather than steelmaking then.
Is a Samurai Sword superior to a European Broadsword? - Yes. The metal has been hammered over upon itself a large number of times, which makes Japanese Steel superior to Toledo Steel for instance - Toledo Steel probably being the benchmark for swords made in the middle ages.
I still don’t think this bridge collapse is about the steel though. I think it is about the impurities in the concrete that were not removed properly when the concrete mix itself was being made.
Winseer:
Note the bridge has collapsed in different sections…Once again, it is hard to think that two seperate “failing metal reenforcements” could both fail at the same time, whilst leaving a center bit intact?
I am now hearing the expression “Decaying Concrete” on the mainstream media, so I’m wondering if my theory might have something to it after all.
Concrete with a high level of Calcium Carbonate, has CO2 baked out of it after years in the sun drying out, with the occasional blistering summer…
After a time, a small but significant percentage of the concrete structure itself is going to be quicklime, rather than slaked lime, which is used in “regular, fresh” concrete.Add water to quicklime, and it slakes on the spot, heating up in the process, and crumbling to powder/paste according to how wet it is.
The fact that some sections of the bridge have not collapsed is easily explained as well: The concrete used in the center section for both the support pillar and road section itself - is of a different mix to the concrete used elsewhere on the same bridge. The unfallen sections are clearly still structurely sound, as the survivors living to tell the tale have already been grateful of.
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Think: Making a clay pot on a potter’s wheel, and throwing a lump of different clay in with the mix halfway through… Is it going to strengthen the overall pot, or actually weaken it?Is pure titanium stronger than a titanium alloy? Do ingredients get mixed in the engineering field “to make things stronger”, or “just bring down the weight”, or indeed the price?
Everything that’s collapsed seems consistent with the failure of the west tower.Everything that’s left is being supported either by the remaining towers or the east end V post.As for concrete if you look at the pictures of the broken sections of the tower they seem to be mostly/all concrete with little if any steel re bar running through them. 
IE if there was enough steel reinforcement you’d expect the posts etc to be bent and still held together by the re bars not snapped cleanly apart.Added to which is the question of lateral loading on the towers resulting form the stay side attachment method.As for using concrete without sufficient steel reinforcement might as well build the thing using chalk.All the signs are a cheap short term bridge solution ideally with a 20 year design life that was kept in service for 50 years and counting.
There are issues with Chinese steel
telegraph.co.uk/finance/new … hreat.html
I was in a motorcycle repair shop the other day. At the back of the shop was a Chinese-built ‘pit bike’. The steel frame had snapped in half. Looking at the steel exposed by the break, it had a coarse granular texture. If you’d put a thin coat of dull red paint on it, it would have looked like the surface of a brick.
Also, I wonder how many Chinese vehicles would be capable of passing a European crash test?
theguardian.com/world/2018/ … e-collapse
When I was at college in the 1980s, one of my mates was doing Construction Engineering, and reckoned that the concrete brutalist hall of residence he lived in was not much longer for this world.
It’s not there any more.
Franglais:
As I understand it this bridge was built in the sixties? And it was part of the privately run Autopista system?
There should be some Italian Gov responsibility for checking on safety BUT the maintenance and decisions to spend on repairs seems to fall onto a Private Company.
If anyone wants to check out the Benetton (fashion house) involvement there are numerous stories on reliable sites.
There was some background input about the autopista company on French tv this morning, the Benetton family have a financial interest, however the autopista company is owned by a global company called “Atlantia” the biggest toll company in the world. It was mentioned that IF the Italian government want to take back control and remove the franchise from autopista/Atlantia it will cost the government Billions to buy out the franchise. Then they would still have to finance the rebuild of the bridge. They stated the chairman of Atlantia is unlikely to step down as this would be seen as an admission of guilt, and typically Italian everyone is trying to lay the blame at someone else’s doorstep, whether it be national government, local government or autopista management, because whoever gets the blame will get the financial cost and criminal charges
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…
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newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
Unlike the rust buckets built at Longbridge, Dagenham, Luton and Ellesmere Port
WOW !
Almost overnight the members of TNUK have become expert metallurgists.
I believe that the British offshore industry and the Royal Navy will not allow the use of Chinese steel in their contracts. They have also been banned from motor bike scrambles because so many of them break into pieces on impact.
newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…
Some say it was more a case of already well rusted recycled Russian steel.Apparently the Italian Commies were in with their Soviet mates in the day hence the Lada/Fiat deal.Obviously not the same stuff as used to make Ferrari ( or Fiat V8 or Isotta Fraschini ) crankshafts. 
As for the bridge in this case.Going by the photos it looks like not enough if any of any type of steel rebar used in the construction of the posts and towers used let alone Italian steel.In which case it’s a miracle how it stayed up this long. 
Meanwhile 1970’s Brit engineering in action.
Santa:
newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
Unlike the rust buckets built at Longbridge, Dagenham, Luton
You’re too late nmm’s mind already seems to have been opened regarding Brit trucks so far that just leaves the cars while the Humber Bridge vid has put that skill set beyond doubt. 
carandclassic.co.uk/car/C999088
Winseer:
alamcculloch:
I am wondering how long the new Forth crossing will last , built with Chinese steel. What could possibly go wrong?Does Chinese Steel have a different structure to any other nation’s steel?
A process of Steel Manufacture is going to be a pretty universal thing - isn’t it? If you make a batch of steel that is liable to shatter upon shock - then it ain’t steel - it is pig iron. If it’s too flexible, then it won’t hold up much weight either. The standards for steel making are pretty universal across the world.I don’t think the Chinese are going to be palming off Pig Iron or White Cast Iron as “Commie’s Finest Steel” somehow.
Making the steel is a universal thing then, and removing any undesired impurities beyond that manufacturing process - involves metallurgy rather than steelmaking then.
Is a Samurai Sword superior to a European Broadsword? - Yes. The metal has been hammered over upon itself a large number of times, which makes Japanese Steel superior to Toledo Steel for instance - Toledo Steel probably being the benchmark for swords made in the middle ages.
I still don’t think this bridge collapse is about the steel though. I think it is about the impurities in the concrete that were not removed properly when the concrete mix itself was being made.
I knew that TNUK had a crack team of lawyers in it’s ranks, I was also aware of the special forces crew, the pilots, the coppers, the uni graduates, the IT experts, the scientists, the Doctor’s, the submariners, the car designers, the history professors, the economics experts and the ex professional athletes.
It appears we can now add the structural engineers to the mix ffs 
GasGas:
There are issues with Chinese steeltelegraph.co.uk/finance/new … hreat.html
I was in a motorcycle repair shop the other day. At the back of the shop was a Chinese-built ‘pit bike’. The steel frame had snapped in half. Looking at the steel exposed by the break, it had a coarse granular texture. If you’d put a thin coat of dull red paint on it, it would have looked like the surface of a brick. That’s a good description of “White” Cast Iron.
Also, I wonder how many Chinese vehicles would be capable of passing a European crash test?
So the Chinese ARE palming off “White Cast Iron” as Steel?
Looks like I’ve been out-conspiracy theoried today then. 
Would Chinese Steel have been used in this bridge though, bearing in mind we’re talking about 50 years ago…
Santa:
newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
Unlike the rust buckets built at Longbridge, Dagenham, Luton and Ellesmere Port
I think that the Alfasud’s which rusted really badly were built with cheap steel from Russia.
Buckstones:
Santa:
newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
Unlike the rust buckets built at Longbridge, Dagenham, Luton and Ellesmere Port
I think that the Alfasud’s which rusted really badly were built with cheap steel from Russia.
This is true - also Fiats as well.
Santa:
newmercman:
Italian steel, weaker than other steel? I would say yes if the rust bucket vehicles made from it were anything to go by…Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
Unlike the rust buckets built at Longbridge, Dagenham, Luton and Ellesmere Port
Yeah that was a bad time to go for an MOT, but a good time to have shares in Isopon. [emoji1][emoji1]
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eagerbeaver:
I knew that TNUK had a crack team of lawyers in it’s ranks, I was also aware of the special forces crew, the pilots, the coppers, the uni graduates, the IT experts, the scientists, the Doctor’s, the submariners, the car designers, the history professors, the economics experts and the ex professional athletes.It appears we can now add the structural engineers to the mix ffs
It doesn’t take a structural engineer to see that there seems to be bleedin great big crack through one of the west tower posts on the right here.You know the same one that collapsed.
download/file.php?id=255399&t=1
Or that design of bridge transmits all of the bridge deck loadings into lateral forces acting on the tower posts.
Or that photos like these seem to show a suspicious lack of much in the way of re bars running through the tower structure.With what is there seeming to be a token gesture of thin wiry zb around the outer perimiter of the concrete beams.
images.financialexpress.com/201 … euters.jpg
