I doubt gross truck weight has very much to do with this incident. Italian domestic rules had some very heavy outfits in the past. 4 axle wagons with 5 axle drags fully freighted with steel coils and pulled by a 240 engine were common.
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albion:
SuperMultiBlue:
good_friend:
I drove through Genoa last month, along with a few other people I knowWhat a [zb] thing to happen to anyone and my sympathies go out to all
RIP to the fallen
Omg it could have been you. Makes you think. We are all so lucky it wasn’t you
If you’ve driven over it, as many people have pointed out they have, it does make you think. One of my first thoughts was thank f it’s August and my first instinct isn’t to see if one of mine is out there. It’s human nature.
This thread isn’t about you sweetheart it’s about dead Italians. Won’t stop you trying though eh?
Santa:
AFIK the Tinsley viaduct lane closures were due to the increases in permitted lorry weights in the late 70s from 32 tons (32.5 tonnes) on 4 axles, to 38/40 tonnes on 5 axles (depending on configuration) and, later, to 44 tonnes on 6 axles.Many other bridges were partially closed, some of them for years, for the same reason. The A40 roundabout over the M5 took a decade to strengthen.
Thank you Santa, so is it still closed then?
This is the fifth road bridge to collapse in Italy in the last five years,
You may have to click translate when you look at this page from Italy The collapsed bridges in Italy
9th March 2017 along the A14 Camerano and Ancona Sud, two fatality’s.
28th October 2016 a flyover on the provincial 49 Molteno-Oggiono, one fatality.
22nd October 2013the bridge in Carasco two fatality’s.
15th December 2004 at Tramonti di Sopraduring a weight test with lorries loaded with sand fails
7th July 2014 Lauricella viaduct.
23rd December 2014 Opening three months ahead of schedule.
After ten days the viaduct at Scorciavacche on Palermo-Agrigento collapsed.
SuperMultiBlue:
This thread isn’t about you sweetheart it’s about dead Italians. Won’t stop you trying though eh?
Edit - no it isn’t, lots of people have spoken about going over it. I don’t think this is really a thread that should go off at a tangent with sniping at people. Save it for another thread.
Check this out.It seems to be saying that they knew in 2016 that it had a shelf life of 40 years at best.In addition to linking it with similar vulnerable designs.
I want £1 pahnd off every driver, who for the next 25yrs, tries to tell me that it was his truck teetering over the edge of that bridge !
I have my own theory as to how concrete can dramatically weaken under an onslaught of heatwave followed by heavy rain that we’ve had about Europe recently.
In Italy, they have an abundance of Marble as well. Should “powdered marble” be used like we might use “Portland Cement” in this country, then there is the potential for a series of chemical reactions that can take place to dramatically weaken any concrete structure, but especially those in direct sunlight with a lot of weight bearing down upon them.
" Following the tragic bridge collapse in Genoa, Italy - I wonder if anyone has considered the following “Chemistry” angle as for the reasons leading to the collapse…
“Concrete containing a large mix-in of Calcium Carbonate”.
In Italy, they have plenty of Marble which is Calcium Carbonate, and most countries all around Europe including England have Limestone - which is also Calcium Carbonate. Now “Poor Quality” or even “Powdered” Marble/Limestone, might well be mixed in with cement to make up part of the regular concrete mixtures for construction in this, and other places where structures have been built. Subject calcium carbonate to intense heat in any shape or form (points to recent heat wave…) and some of that Calcium carboate is going to give up CO2 and turn into Quicklime (Calcium Oxide).
You can also “Roast” Limestone and Marble to achieve the same effect somewhat quicker. It is even possible to take a piece of Marble or Limestone - and play a blowtorch upon it, to create some “quicklime” pieces of your own. (CAUTION: Quicklime is CAUSTIC! - Particulates will cause permanent damage to your eyes!! - Wear goggles and Gloves when handling!) Now one of the main properties of CaO is “what happens to it when you get it wet”. It heats up, expands, turns into “Slaked” Lime Ca(OH)2 - and crumbles to powder… The resulting pasty mixture in an excess of water is known as “Lime Putty” in the building trade, the heat having dissipated soon after the “slaking” reaction shown in the videos. We’ve had a long heat wave recently, immediately followed by storm rains… We might want to look at “Construction Mixtures” all over Italy, and indeed all over the world in any place that has been subjected to heat waves and storm rains in particular - if my theory here holds any water. In the video linked here youtube.com/watch?v=1edL-WDwwCk you see “roasted” pieces of Calcium Carbonate (Limestone AND Marble qualifies here…) which have pretty much turned the stone-like pieces of Limestone or Marble into Quicklime. Stick them in ordinary tap water - and check out the exothermic reaction that follows… I am suggesting that such a chemical reaction might have not only weakened concrete structures where a buildup of Quicklime has occured - but may have also caused “mini explosions” in key supporting parts in particular. These small explosions can then expose metal support struts within bridge pillars for example. There were reports of the collapsed Bridge at Genoa “Being hit by a lightening strike” - but I am looking for a wider, weakening effect all over the bridge concrete mixture here.
This second video shows the same process, but this time pointing out the disintegration of the roasted pieces of quicklime in better detail. youtube.com/watch?v=qRyVh_Bwvjs Now imagine if even 1% of a concrete bridge support were made up of this “Quicklime” due to a long time under heat - even “direct sunlight heat”… It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see what effect a sudden flurry of rain would then have on that structure… "
(Baked/Roasted Limestone or Marble that is then allowed to cool and then saturated in ordinary water)
Winseer:
I have my own theory as to how concrete can dramatically weaken under an onslaught of heatwave followed by heavy rain that we’ve had about Europe recently.In Italy, they have an abundance of Marble as well. Should “powdered marble” be used like we might use “Portland Cement” in this country, then there is the potential for a series of chemical reactions that can take place to dramatically weaken any concrete structure, but especially those in direct sunlight with a lot of weight bearing down upon them.
" Following the tragic bridge collapse in Genoa, Italy - I wonder if anyone has considered the following “Chemistry” angle as for the reasons leading to the collapse…
“Concrete containing a large mix-in of Calcium Carbonate”.
In Italy, they have plenty of Marble which is Calcium Carbonate, and most countries all around Europe including England have Limestone - which is also Calcium Carbonate. Now “Poor Quality” or even “Powdered” Marble/Limestone, might well be mixed in with cement to make up part of the regular concrete mixtures for construction in this, and other places where structures have been built. Subject calcium carbonate to intense heat in any shape or form (points to recent heat wave…) and some of that Calcium carboate is going to give up CO2 and turn into Quicklime (Calcium Oxide).
You can also “Roast” Limestone and Marble to achieve the same effect somewhat quicker. It is even possible to take a piece of Marble or Limestone - and play a blowtorch upon it, to create some “quicklime” pieces of your own. (CAUTION: Quicklime is CAUSTIC! - Particulates will cause permanent damage to your eyes!! - Wear goggles and Gloves when handling!) Now one of the main properties of CaO is “what happens to it when you get it wet”. It heats up, expands, turns into “Slaked” Lime Ca(OH)2 - and crumbles to powder… The resulting pasty mixture in an excess of water is known as “Lime Putty” in the building trade, the heat having dissipated soon after the “slaking” reaction shown in the videos. We’ve had a long heat wave recently, immediately followed by storm rains… We might want to look at “Construction Mixtures” all over Italy, and indeed all over the world in any place that has been subjected to heat waves and storm rains in particular - if my theory here holds any water. In the video linked here youtube.com/watch?v=1edL-WDwwCk you see “roasted” pieces of Calcium Carbonate (Limestone AND Marble qualifies here…) which have pretty much turned the stone-like pieces of Limestone or Marble into Quicklime. Stick them in ordinary tap water - and check out the exothermic reaction that follows… I am suggesting that such a chemical reaction might have not only weakened concrete structures where a buildup of Quicklime has occured - but may have also caused “mini explosions” in key supporting parts in particular. These small explosions can then expose metal support struts within bridge pillars for example. There were reports of the collapsed Bridge at Genoa “Being hit by a lightening strike” - but I am looking for a wider, weakening effect all over the bridge concrete mixture here.
This second video shows the same process, but this time pointing out the disintegration of the roasted pieces of quicklime in better detail. youtube.com/watch?v=qRyVh_Bwvjs Now imagine if even 1% of a concrete bridge support were made up of this “Quicklime” due to a long time under heat - even “direct sunlight heat”… It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see what effect a sudden flurry of rain would then have on that structure… "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edL-WDwwCk
(Baked/Roasted Limestone or Marble that is then allowed to cool and then saturated in ordinary water)
Marble ain’t cheap and its resemblance to cheese for durability is also well known which is why granite is used in preference to marble for anything requiring weather resistance at least for example.
As for this summer’s ‘heatwave’.In my experience going back to the late 1970’s Italy is usually like an oven from when you reach the bottom of the Simplon or St Bernard and then just gets hotter as you go South during the Summer months from May to August especially July together with thunderstorms the equal of anything which Florida could chuck at it.I’d doubt if it would have even lasted the 20-40 years the experts seem to have given it if it was falling to bits because of powdered marble in the mix as you’ve described.I’d prefer to go with corrosion and/or fatigue in the steel re inforcement which is usually the only thing which makes any concrete structure viable. 
Might sound daft at first thought, but what about going back to building bridges out of steel. Forth bridge, Tyne bridge, Sydney Harbour bridge etc. We all know they need maintenance as in painting and checking, but this is easily done, if expensive. I was really shocked to see there’s been 5 collapses in Italy in not too long a period. It might not matter too much to politicians when a few lives are lost, but it does to us lot.
Carryfast is correct, this summer has been fairly standard for Italy. Over there they call heatwaves ‘summer’ 
Santa:
AFIK the Tinsley viaduct lane closures were due to the increases in permitted lorry weights in the late 70s from 32 tons (32.5 tonnes) on 4 axles, to 38/40 tonnes on 5 axles (depending on configuration) and, later, to 44 tonnes on 6 axles.Many other bridges were partially closed, some of them for years, for the same reason. The A40 roundabout over the M5 took a decade to strengthen.
All the bridge closures at that time were due to the box girder construction method which was found to have inherent weaknesses and needed to be replaced/modified
It cannot be a coincidence about the rain storm preceeding the collapse though.
Using the “Corrision” theory rather than my “Metamorphic” Theory, that would mean the bridges all stand to fall down from the moment any exposed metal bits are not jumped on and repaired quickly enough.
Maintenance work was going on beforehand…
Exposed metal is evident.
Yes. It could be “just corrosion” and nothing more. The only thing that doesn’t fit though is that if “Heat” played no part in this, then we would not expect bridges to collapse in colder climates, including the cooler times around the Italian climate year.?
Bridges seem to be falling down all over the place around Italy though - don’t they?
These Leftists who think it is “All the Right-Wing governments fault” need to shut up sharpish!
The Genoa bridge is 50 years old, which is almost as long ago as the Treaty of Rome… IF such a tragedy could have been averted - then rest assured, the EU had their grubby mits on the ■■■■■ strings all that time, and could have funded vast infrastructure projects throughout Europe… But no. 
Winseer:
The Genoa bridge is 50 years old, which is almost as long ago as the Treaty of Rome… IF such a tragedy could have been averted - then rest assured, the EU had their grubby mits on the ■■■■■ strings all that time, and could have funded vast infrastructure projects throughout Europe… But no.
A few moments research would have revealed the vast amount of taxpayer’s money that the EU spends on infrastructure projects. I was astonished when driving in Portugall, at the miles and miles of brand new motorway (complete with bridges) - all paid for by the EU.
When a country keeps changing its government (66 in Italy since WW2) long-term projects get shelved for short-term expediency and votes. Add traditional corruption and criminal control of construction and maybe the surprise is that so many bridges are still functioning.
Santa:
Winseer:
The Genoa bridge is 50 years old, which is almost as long ago as the Treaty of Rome… IF such a tragedy could have been averted - then rest assured, the EU had their grubby mits on the ■■■■■ strings all that time, and could have funded vast infrastructure projects throughout Europe… But no.A few moments research would have revealed the vast amount of taxpayer’s money that the EU spends on infrastructure projects. I was astonished when driving in Portugall, at the miles and miles of brand new motorway (complete with bridges) - all paid for by the EU. Our own highways agency isn’t paid for by the EU, which is odd, seeing as we pay so much to the EU.
When a country keeps changing its government (66 in Italy since WW2) long-term projects get shelved for short-term expediency and votes. Add traditional corruption and criminal control of construction and maybe the surprise is that so many bridges are still functioning.
Spending money on stuff and wasting money on stuff because you didn’t spend anywhere near enough, giving out proper contracts for the work - are very different in execution.
The EU’s history of “funding infrastructure” is as poor as Theresa May’s “I’m funding the NHS more than ever - honest!”
Whatever anyone says - we just don’t see any evidence of that from the public on the ground level.
The EU should have cracked down on organized crime in particular, especially across the national boundaries, and within the shengen zone. They dream of being this federalist super-state and a rival to the USA - but they just don’t spend the right amounts on the right things… Key words being “Right” there!
Poor policing, high corruption, lapse border controls, shoddy materials, and any “future visions” get wasted on “Man-Made Climate Change” which is nothing but a load of rubbish dressed up as some new age religion almost.
Actually crushing the criminal fraternity instead of “Right Wingers” around the continent - might have made a difference - but no. 
The EU’s ■■■■■ strings have been taken advantage of like a drunk millionaire staggering around a brudder camp - and there’s still no sign that it is going to stop being thus any time soon!
Winseer:
Santa:
Winseer:
The Genoa bridge is 50 years old, which is almost as long ago as the Treaty of Rome… IF such a tragedy could have been averted - then rest assured, the EU had their grubby mits on the ■■■■■ strings all that time, and could have funded vast infrastructure projects throughout Europe… But no.A few moments research would have revealed the vast amount of taxpayer’s money that the EU spends on infrastructure projects. I was astonished when driving in Portugall, at the miles and miles of brand new motorway (complete with bridges) - all paid for by the EU. Our own highways agency isn’t paid for by the EU, which is odd, seeing as we pay so much to the EU.
When a country keeps changing its government (66 in Italy since WW2) long-term projects get shelved for short-term expediency and votes. Add traditional corruption and criminal control of construction and maybe the surprise is that so many bridges are still functioning.
Spending money on stuff and wasting money on stuff because you didn’t spend anywhere near enough, giving out proper contracts for the work - are very different in execution.
The EU’s history of “funding infrastructure” is as poor as Theresa May’s “I’m funding the NHS more than ever - honest!”
Whatever anyone says - we just don’t see any evidence of that from the public on the ground level.
The EU should have cracked down on organized crime in particular, especially across the national boundaries, and within the shengen zone. They dream of being this federalist super-state and a rival to the USA - but they just don’t spend the right amounts on the right things… Key words being “Right” there!Poor policing, high corruption, lapse border controls, shoddy materials, and any “future visions” get wasted on “Man-Made Climate Change” which is nothing but a load of rubbish dressed up as some new age religion almost.
Actually crushing the criminal fraternity instead of “Right Wingers” around the continent - might have made a difference - but no.
The EU’s ■■■■■ strings have been taken advantage of like a drunk millionaire staggering around a brudder camp - and there’s still no sign that it is going to stop being thus any time soon!
Think you’re in the wrong thread mate. 
Winseer:
It cannot be a coincidence about the rain storm preceeding the collapse though.Using the “Corrision” theory rather than my “Metamorphic” Theory, that would mean the bridges all stand to fall down from the moment any exposed metal bits are not jumped on and repaired quickly enough.
Maintenance work was going on beforehand…
Exposed metal is evident.
Yes. It could be “just corrosion” and nothing more. The only thing that doesn’t fit though is that if “Heat” played no part in this, then we would not expect bridges to collapse in colder climates, including the cooler times around the Italian climate year.?
Bridges seem to be falling down all over the place around Italy though - don’t they?
These Leftists who think it is “All the Right-Wing governments fault” need to shut up sharpish!
The Genoa bridge is 50 years old, which is almost as long ago as the Treaty of Rome… IF such a tragedy could have been averted - then rest assured, the EU had their grubby mits on the ■■■■■ strings all that time, and could have funded vast infrastructure projects throughout Europe… But no.
The storm’s contribution seems to be attributed to high winds flexing the structure not water.While if heat is a major player in bridges falling down around Italy you can bet that all of the elevated sections of autostrada and other flyovers through and around Reggio di Calabria for example would long ago have fallen down.
Realistically it’s probably more a case of a similar contradiction along the same lines of the actual design life of a Fiat 124 etc being massively different to the working life which its customers would like to have got and tried to get out of the things. Much of that was a case of Italian steel supplies being let’s say not up to the same standard as Swedish steel and the Italian mindset of why use loads of material to make something when a lot less will do and put the money saved in their pocket and no reason to think that the long term viability and durability of Italian bridges,let alone 50 year old ones,is any better especially when subjected to Italian weights.
So there you have it crap steel with the corrosion resistance and strength of paper mache,combined with cost cutting minimalist design aims,subjected to some of the heaviest weights in Europe.But which somehow managed to last for 50 years when it would have been expected to collapse 10 or more years ago.
rigsby:
Santa:
AFIK the Tinsley viaduct lane closures were due to the increases in permitted lorry weights in the late 70s from 32 tons (32.5 tonnes) on 4 axles, to 38/40 tonnes on 5 axles (depending on configuration) and, later, to 44 tonnes on 6 axles.Many other bridges were partially closed, some of them for years, for the same reason. The A40 roundabout over the M5 took a decade to strengthen.
All the bridge closures at that time were due to the box girder construction method which was found to have inherent weaknesses and needed to be replaced/modified
I’d guess that if weight is any factor the shift away from drawbars on the continent,especially the typical Italian 8 axle outfit,to 5 axle 40 tonner artics wouldn’t have helped and might possibly explain the thing’s longer than expected life span and accelerated fatigue in later life.Also leaves the question as to whether Italian bridge design is still going by that older better weight spread mindset.In which case surely it would be better for the road transport industry and transport legislation to rethink its approach in that regard.
Dork Lard:
I want £1 pahnd off every driver, who for the next 25yrs, tries to tell me that it was his truck teetering over the edge of that bridge !
This guy on the BBC seems legit, lucky LHD.
Luciano Goccia: ‘I was under the bridge when it collapsed’
Hearing the sort of the British family that were on the bridge is a bit harrowing. Apparently after a sea of brakelights a sea of reverse lights came on but everyone got stuck so had to leave their vehicles and run. Imagine how terrifying it must have been, especially when you have your children with you, not knowing if the rest is going to collapse from under you as you run. Awful to hear some 20 people are still missing