GB Domestic Rules - Van Drivers 3.5t gvw

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Hi, OK. why is a DGSA asking for advice about this? Well, tbh, I have reached an age whereby I can/have sort of semi retired but still want to keep active.

Got a job with one of the big four supermarkets doing home deliveries and done a couple of training shifts and the job seems ok. Happy emoji.

Although I am a DGSA (until my cert runs out) I have never been a TM although I understand (a little, which makes me dangerous) about drivers hours.

Here are my designated shifts:

Sunday: 08:00 - 15:30
Monday: Off
Tuesday: 06:30 - 10:00
Wednesday: 18:00 - 22:30
Thursday: 15:00 - 23:00
Friday: 08:00 - 15:30.
Saturday: Off

My concern/question is: “Is that Thursday/Friday turnaround legal?”.

From my understanding my 24 hour period starts at 15:00 Thursday and then I can only do 11 hours of duty time until 15:00 Friday under GB Domestic Rules. By my calculations I will have done 15 hours. (Less worried about the 10 hours driving as there is a lot of non driving time in the hours).

Yes I could raise it with the supermarkets TM (whoever that is), however, don’t want to be an @rse with my immediate supervisor who (I am guessing) knows less about drivers hours/TMs/TCs than a chipmunk. (One of the other 3.5 drivers is actually qualified as a TM but being an old f@rt like me is just doing it for pocket money so will also ask him about the best way to raise it if I am correct).

Thanks in advance.

2

i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

3

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

The OP says he is on UK Domestic rules, not EU rules.

Under EU rules the 9hrs off would “wipe the slate clean” and a new day would start 08hrs00 Friday. No problem.

Under GB rules the 24hr day starting 15hrs00 Thu ends at 15hr00 Friday, by which time he would (it seems) have worked 8hrs on Thu, plus 7hrs on the Friday. 15hrs.
Looks like there may be a problem.

The 11 hrs limit is duty time though, isn`t it? Not, what we used to call “spreadover time”?

Breaks are not included, so if he takes some loooong lunch breaks?

4

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

No, I do not think you are being thick. I am trying to understand the difference between EU/GB Domestic rules Over 3.5t gvw, tacho/didgi card in EU rules apply and GB Domestic rules for less than 3.5 gvw under non tacho/digi card rules). These are two different things that are similiar enough to confuse even the best of us. Peacedove.

5

Franglais:

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

The OP says he is on UK Domestic rules, not EU rules.

Under EU rules the 9hrs off would “wipe the slate clean” and a new day would start 08hrs00 Friday. No problem.

Under GB rules the 24hr day starting 15hrs00 Thu ends at 15hr00 Friday, by which time he would (it seems) have worked 8hrs on Thu, plus 7hrs on the Friday. 15hrs.
Looks like there may be a problem.

The 11 hrs limit is duty time though, isn`t it? Not, what we used to call “spreadover time”?

Breaks are not included, so if he takes some loooong lunch breaks?

Correct Franglais. I am driving a 3.5 gvw van under GB/UK Domestic rules for one of the BIG FOUR Supermarkets on Home Delivery. (In my understanding I will take some loooong French breaks on this Thurs/Fri turnaround?? Not a problem, if I am paid by the hour).

Just want to avoid the £300 fine or get my employer in trouble.

6

Franglais:

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

The OP says he is on UK Domestic rules, not EU rules.

Under EU rules the 9hrs off would “wipe the slate clean” and a new day would start 08hrs00 Friday. No problem.

Under GB rules the 24hr day starting 15hrs00 Thu ends at 15hr00 Friday, by which time he would (it seems) have worked 8hrs on Thu, plus 7hrs on the Friday. 15hrs.
Looks like there may be a problem.

The 11 hrs limit is duty time though, isn`t it? Not, what we used to call “spreadover time”?

Breaks are not included, so if he takes some loooong lunch breaks?

ok im supprised then because when i did van work for 6 months or so i must of been well over my hours which seems a little odd because the company was the type that if you got 3 infringments they would sit ypu down and make you watch an hours video on tacho regs and then a quiz

7

DGSA2:

Franglais:

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

The OP says he is on UK Domestic rules, not EU rules.

Under EU rules the 9hrs off would “wipe the slate clean” and a new day would start 08hrs00 Friday. No problem.

Under GB rules the 24hr day starting 15hrs00 Thu ends at 15hr00 Friday, by which time he would (it seems) have worked 8hrs on Thu, plus 7hrs on the Friday. 15hrs.
Looks like there may be a problem.

The 11 hrs limit is duty time though, isn`t it? Not, what we used to call “spreadover time”?

Breaks are not included, so if he takes some loooong lunch breaks?

Correct Franglais. I am driving a 3.5 gvw van under GB/UK Domestic rules for one of the BIG FOUR Supermarkets on Home Delivery. (In my understanding I will take some loooong French breaks on this Thurs/Fri turnaround?? Not a problem, if I am paid by the hour).

Just want to avoid the £300 fine or get my employer in trouble.

Ive not run under GB rules....well, not since we wrote all of our stops in log books.....so Im only repeating what I see on the .gov.uk sites.
No expertise, nor experience being claimed. :smiley:

Looks to me like you do have a legit issue there, but like you, I wouldn`t go off the deep end straight away.

8

cooper1203:
ok im supprised then because when i did van work for 6 months or so i must of been well over my hours which seems a little odd because the company was the type that if you got 3 infringments they would sit ypu down and make you watch an hours video on tacho regs and then a quiz

Well, coloured me suprised!

Here is a tip, not legal advice.

  1. If stopped by the police say nothing. Ask for a lawyer.
  2. Say nothing.
  3. Don’t believe what you have read on the internet.
  4. Say nothing and ask for a lawyer before you say anything to the police.
  5. Remember 1, 2 and 4.
9

Franglais:
Ive not run under GB rules....well, not since we wrote all of our stops in log books.....so Im only repeating what I see on the .gov.uk sites.
No expertise, nor experience being claimed. :smiley:

Looks to me like you do have a legit issue there, but like you, I wouldn`t go off the deep end straight away.

I do not have a problem with the shift schedule. It is ok. I have a problem with the £300 fine. It is the money not the principle. :smiley:

10

It’s domestic hours, you ain’t getting pulled by anyone. On the buses we could max out each week , 13 on one off for as long as you could take it. Hence why some were earning £45k

I see nothing wrong with that rota either

11

DGSA2:

cooper1203:
i must be being thick here i dont understand your issue. you start at 15:00 thursday and finish 23:00 thursday an 8 hour shift. then you dont start work again untill 8 am friday morning ie 9 hours off. I havent gone through it but as long as that isnt your 4th shortened rest whats the issue

its like saying i start work at 5 am and clock off at 6 pm ie 13 hour shift i then have 9hours off till 3 am the next 2 hours dont count for that days work because 24 hours hasnt passed and if that was the case i could then legaly do a 17 hour shift provided i had a spare 15

No, I do not think you are being thick. I am trying to understand the difference between EU/GB Domestic rules Over 3.5t gvw, tacho/didgi card in EU rules apply and GB Domestic rules for less than 3.5 gvw under non tacho/digi card rules). These are two different things that are similiar enough to confuse even the best of us. Peacedove.

Why worry about EU regs of you’re not using them?
I, like most on here (i think) don’t use GB rules but I’m sure they are not that complicated to understand.
If you think you’re breaking them it’s best to have a word with someone really even if it’s just to clarify. Just imagine what will happen if you have an accident and are found to be over your hours, not good…

12

I agree the last 2 days is not compliant with domestic regs, the driver sufficient rest and has more than 11hrs duty in the day - which starts at 15.00 on Thursday.
Ask and see what they say. I’d guess they think domestic regs are for just each day starting at midnight, rather than starting when the drivers duty starts

13

How much actual driving is done in a day? If it’s less than four hours each day then the 11 hour daily duty time limit doesn’t apply.

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14

There was another thread on here recently about Domestic Rules.
Basically, there isn’t anything carved in stone in the rules about rests and breaks, just that they should be “adequate”

If you’re getting 9 hours daily rest in, that’d be adequate. If you’re getting a clear 24 hours off a week, that’d be adequate (you’re getting two, so even less of a problem)

The “turnaround” at the weekend is fine, I’m not sure why you think it isn’t?

Forget EU rules, you’re just confusing yourself, you just need to get your head around (1) Domestic rules and (2) Working Time Directive, both of which you’ll find online, though the gov.uk info on WTD seems to be broken up into segments. Like most TMs I usually deal with RTD more than WTD, there are a few differences, though I CBA to post them all.

gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules
gov.uk/rest-breaks-work

People tie themselves in knots over this kind of stuff, and I’m certain someone will post a more complicated version of this, but for my $0.02 worth, here’s the short version of what you need to know

Domestic Rules:
10 hours max driving
11 hours max duty
Rests/breaks “adequate”

Working Time Directive (not Road Transport Directive)
WTD defines rests as 20 min blocks (this is 15 mins for RTD, for some odd reason)

WTD says, take a break before working 6 hours
It doesn’t look like you’re working beyond 9 hours so that’s “adequate”

RTD says you need breaks totaling 30 mins if working between 6 & 9 hours, so I’d also take another break after that initial one, however
WTD appears not to stipulate that AFAICS, but like I said, I don’t usually deal with the generic WTD, so I haven’t bothered to look into that

60 hours max work per week
48 hour average over Reference Period
Your job to make sure you get an “adequate” daily rest and break
Your bosses job to worry about monitoring the Reference Period

And don’t worry about getting your bosses into trouble :unamused: , they’re paid to look after your working requirements, and the only Tesco TM I’ve seen spouting his opinions online is a bit of a tool, so look after
yourself first and foremost, and most important of all, K.I.S.S.

15

Zac_A:
The “turnaround” at the weekend is fine, I’m not sure why you think it isn’t?

DGSA2:
Thursday: 15:00 - 23:00
Friday: 08:00 - 15:30.
…
My concern/question is: “Is that Thursday/Friday turnaround legal?”.

From my understanding my 24 hour period starts at 15:00 Thursday and then I can only do 11 hours of duty time until 15:00 Friday under GB Domestic Rules. By my calculations I will have done 15 hours. (Less worried about the 10 hours driving as there is a lot of non driving time in the hours).

Thursday start 15hrs.
By Fri 15hrs (24hrs later) the OP is, “at work*” for 15hrs (8+7).

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … stic-rules
“Day: The day is the 24-hour period beginning with the start of duty time.”
“In any working day the maximum amount of duty permitted is 11 hours”

If he has only minimum breaks then he will be “on Duty” for more than the 11hrs allowed from start of work Thu.
If he has 4hrs or more as breaks, it appears to me, he will be legal. If he has less than 4hrs as breaks, it appears to me, he will be illegal.

*“at work” is a term Im using, and Im assuming most will understand what is meant. The rules only use “driving”, “duty”, and “break”.

16

Franglais:

Zac_A:
The “turnaround” at the weekend is fine, I’m not sure why you think it isn’t?

DGSA2:
Thursday: 15:00 - 23:00
Friday: 08:00 - 15:30.
…
My concern/question is: “Is that Thursday/Friday turnaround legal?”.

From my understanding my 24 hour period starts at 15:00 Thursday and then I can only do 11 hours of duty time until 15:00 Friday under GB Domestic Rules. By my calculations I will have done 15 hours. (Less worried about the 10 hours driving as there is a lot of non driving time in the hours).

Thursday start 15hrs.
By Fri 15hrs (24hrs later) the OP is, “at work*” for 15hrs (8+7).

gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … stic-rules
“Day: The day is the 24-hour period beginning with the start of duty time.”
“In any working day the maximum amount of duty permitted is 11 hours”

If he has only minimum breaks then he will be “on Duty” for more than the 11hrs allowed from start of work Thu.
If he has 4hrs or more as breaks, it appears to me, he will be legal. If he has less than 4hrs as breaks, it appears to me, he will be illegal.

*“at work” is a term Im using, and Im assuming most will understand what is meant. The rules only use “driving”, “duty”, and “break”.

your right its a 24 hour period i have been on uk domestic rules for 20 years a example if you start at 6am Monday and do the full duty time you cant start until 6am Tuesday and so on if you only do 7 hours Monday you could start at 2am Tuesday etc key thing is is the first start time in that week then work out from then.

17

To be honest, I was being kinda cynical and meaning that as 3.5T drivers aren’t on a tacho, they are less likely to have documented records, so less likely to have any trouble because they’re far less likely to be stopped. Also, there was another thread recently where a guy had been offered a job by Tesco and they hadn’t even bothered to ask him about other work commitments, so I’m not certain that they have a great deal of scruples, as big as they might be.

18

Many thanks to all who have replied.

If I can summarise, then yes, it is, shall I say, a bit dodgy? The Thurs/Fri changeover?

Also I apologise for any confusion. I “think” (dangerous) I have a (limited) grasp of the rules under tachos (or EU) laws for >3.5t gvw vehicles but didn’t have a clue about GB rules until this job and looked into it. I apologise for any loose or confusing terms I may have used.

Will have a chat with the other driver who “says” he has a TM qualification and see what he says.

Again, thanks for your responses.

19

Roymondo:
How much actual driving is done in a day? If it’s less than four hours each day then the 11 hour daily duty time limit doesn’t apply.

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Nice to see the GB rules are just as stupid as the EU ones then! :laughing: