Sidevalve:
I don’t dispute that tachographs can be fiddled; any regulatory system once imposed invites attempts to circuit it by the unscrupulous and greedy. I don’t dispute either that the system as it currently stands is a long way from being ideal. The WTD in particular is an intrusive and unnecessary complication, which offers little real benefit. However, if you seriously think that quitting the EU will automatically abolish anything which is regarded by both the government and the public as a necessary part of road safety, you’re sadly mistaken.
It seems logical that leaving the EU by definition means that the UK no longer needs to be subject to EU hours regs and domestic regs then apply.Which as I’ve said actually provides the ‘public’ with a potentially safer environment of not having knackered rivers running around with potentially less than 6 hours sleep between shifts.Or the situation of the tacho pressurising a tired driver to drive and telling an alert one to park up. Bearing in mind that at the end of the day false records are usually found out the same way by wage records and/or mileage discrepancies whether it’s log books or tachos.
ROG:
If the job you are doing is exempt EU regs and put you on UK domestic regs then the max in ANY period of 24 hours is 11 hours work which can include 10 hours driving
That is a rolling 24 hour period not a fixed 24 hour period
How does the definition of ‘working day’ not equate to the 24 hour period from when you started.
IE no one with any common sense is going to interpret domestic regs as allowing 4 hours on 4 hours off continuously over a rolling 24/7 week for example. If a driver went off the road under that ridiculous interpretation the courts would just apply the usual test of what is reasonable.
ROG:
If the job you are doing is exempt EU regs and put you on UK domestic regs then the max in ANY period of 24 hours is 11 hours work which can include 10 hours driving
That is a rolling 24 hour period not a fixed 24 hour period
How does the definition of ‘working day’ not equate to the 24 hour period from when you started.
IE no one with any common sense is going to interpret domestic regs as allowing 4 hours on 4 hours off continuously over a rolling 24/7 week for example. If a driver went off the road under that ridiculous interpretation the courts would just apply the usual test of what is reasonable.
The LAW allows for almost (cannot do 12 in 24) just that but safety is another issue
ROG:
How does the definition of ‘working day’ not equate to the 24 hour period from when you started.
IE no one with any common sense is going to interpret domestic regs as allowing 4 hours on 4 hours off continuously over a rolling 24/7 week for example. If a driver went off the road under that ridiculous interpretation the courts would just apply the usual test of what is reasonable.
The LAW allows for almost (cannot do 12 in 24) just that but safety is another issue
In which case as I said how would that interpretation translate as 11 hours max in a working ‘day’.IE assuming that type of ridiculous rolling shift pattern interpretation how do you define ‘day’.It seems obvious that they are referring to the situation of 11 hours max + breaks over the 24 hour period from the start of the shift.IE realistically around more or less 12 hours minimum daily rest period.
Having said that if it’s really too much to expect for anyone to apply common sense,to the idea of a specified duty limit but an unspecified daily rest period.Then as I said an amended Domestic regime would be a lot better in that regard than having drivers running around having had potentially less than 6 hours sleep between shifts under EU regs.
Carryfast:
It seems logical that leaving the EU by definition means that the UK no longer needs to be subject to EU hours regs and domestic regs then apply.Which as I’ve said actually provides the ‘public’ with a potentially safer environment of not having knackered rivers running around with potentially less than 6 hours sleep between shifts.Or the situation of the tacho pressurising a tired driver to drive and telling an alert one to park up. Bearing in mind that at the end of the day false records are usually found out the same way by wage records and/or mileage discrepancies whether it’s log books or tachos.
I fail to see how it would make a ha’porth of difference.
Copied from the government site, regarding rest periods;
"You must take a rest of 10 hours before the first duty and immediately after the last duty in a working week.
You must take a rest of at least 10 hours between 2 working days (or spreadovers) - this can be reduced to 8.5 hours up to 3 times a week.
All duties must start and finish within a 24-hour period."
Given that the minimum required rest period on UK domestic hours is actually LESS than EU driving hours, how does your argument for safety stack up?
Carryfast:
It seems logical that leaving the EU by definition means that the UK no longer needs to be subject to EU hours regs and domestic regs then apply.Which as I’ve said actually provides the ‘public’ with a potentially safer environment of not having knackered rivers running around with potentially less than 6 hours sleep between shifts.Or the situation of the tacho pressurising a tired driver to drive and telling an alert one to park up. Bearing in mind that at the end of the day false records are usually found out the same way by wage records and/or mileage discrepancies whether it’s log books or tachos.
I fail to see how it would make a ha’porth of difference.
Copied from the government site, regarding rest periods;
"You must take a rest of 10 hours before the first duty and immediately after the last duty in a working week.
You must take a rest of at least 10 hours between 2 working days (or spreadovers) - this can be reduced to 8.5 hours up to 3 times a week.
All duties must start and finish within a 24-hour period."
Given that the minimum required rest period on UK domestic hours is actually LESS than EU driving hours, how does your argument for safety stack up?
Aren’t you quoting the rules for PSV there? The rules for goods vehicles do not specify rest periods
Sidevalve:
You must take a rest of at least 10 hours between 2 working days
Given that the minimum required rest period on UK domestic hours is actually LESS than EU driving hours, how does your argument for safety stack up?
Firstly how does 10 hours minimum between shifts equate to less than 9.
As I said yes the daily/weekly rest period regime under domestic regs isn’t ideal but still better than the over complicated even worse EU regs.While unlike EU regs would be much easier to amend to bring it up to date for the civilised world.IE 12 hours minimum daily rest.
As for the EU obviously made for people who are totally mathematically illiterate.In everything from driver’s hours regs to trade figures and the definition of ‘net contributor’.
shep532:
Aren’t you quoting the rules for PSV there? The rules for goods vehicles do not specify rest periods
Let’s just say that given a workforce that isn’t prepared to grovel to every demand made by the guvnor.The ambiguity contained in domestic regs in everything from log books to daily rest requirements,but with an obvious stated duty time reference point,could usually be made to work in the driver’s favour.Hence the original ( correct ) union position of being against the imposition of EU hours regs here.
shep532:
Aren’t you quoting the rules for PSV there? The rules for goods vehicles do not specify rest periods
Let’s just say that given a workforce that isn’t prepared to grovel to every demand made by the guvnor.The ambiguity contained in domestic regs in everything from log books to daily rest requirements,but with an obvious stated duty time reference point,could usually be made to work in the driver’s favour.Hence the original ( correct ) union position of being against the imposition of EU hours regs here.
Yes you’re right that was for PSV, my bad.
You’re not going to get it though, carryfast; not in today’s age where every minute of a driver’s working day is minutely scrutinised. Your scenario would only ever work with the likes of Ford and BT which are still pretty much effectively closed shops. The rest of us would be much worse off, unionised or not. For all that we curse tachographs sometimes, there’s no doubt that having to work with them has at least afforded drivers a fixed rest period which no gaffer can legally mess with. They’re not going to go away mate.
Sidevalve:
The rest of us would be much worse off, unionised or not. For all that we curse tachographs sometimes, there’s no doubt that having to work with them has at least afforded drivers a fixed rest period which no gaffer can legally mess with. They’re not going to go away mate.
I’d guess there are two different issues there of domestic log books v EU tachos and the different one of domestic rest periods v EU.
In all cases falsification of records was/is considered just as bad regardless of recording method and were/are usually shown up by referencing wage and mileage records and road side checks at any given place and time.However obviously the ability to take unauthorised breaks with no implications regards employer action is obviously an advantage regards safety.
Which then leaves the question as I said of at least an amended and simpler than EU Domestic hours regime with established daily and weekly rest provision set at stricter levels ( IE along the lines of 12 hours and 48 hours minimum respectively ).In which use of log books would probably be a given anyway unless tachos were introduced for domestic regs by similar amendment.In either case the move away from EU regs,at least given those conditions,would,on balance,arguably be a safer superior option than what we’ve got with EU regs.
I think they’re inextricably linked. Furthermore, if in the unlikely event that we leave the EU, and the even more unlikely scenario of British drivers being exempt from tachographs comes into play, how does this affect European drivers over here, and our drivers in mainland Europe? Would cabotage exemptions still apply, and would they favour us or them?
There’s far more to it than a set of driving regulations.
Sidevalve:
I think they’re inextricably linked. Furthermore, if in the unlikely event that we leave the EU, and the even more unlikely scenario of British drivers being exempt from tachographs comes into play, how does this affect European drivers over here, and our drivers in mainland Europe? Would cabotage exemptions still apply, and would they favour us or them?
There’s far more to it than a set of driving regulations.
Firstly I might even be prepared to put a few bob on the chance that Cameron will be deposed before the referendum.
As for the idea that we have more to gain from an EU wide cabotage environment or that EU hours regs are superior to an updated Domestic regime,or that UK-EU transport operations and our Euro running fleet would be in any different position than it was in 1972 or even 1978,with the exception that CMR conventions would still now apply,sounds like more mathematically illiterate in campaign bollox.
Bearing in mind that at the end of the day false records are usually found out the same way by wage records and/or mileage discrepancies whether it’s log books or tachos. 
or that EU hours regs are superior to an updated Domestic regime,or that UK-EU transport operations and our Euro running fleet would be in any different position than it was in 1972 or even 1978,with the exception that CMR conventions would still now apply,sounds like more mathematically illiterate in campaign bollox.