Gardner and Rolls diesel information

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
61

ghinzani:
I know the MMB used to run 220 Rollers and ■■■■■■ 250s at that weight but upped to the 265 because they were a little sluggish, altho the ■■■■■■■ pulled well with those 14 litres.

The early ■■■■■■■ that you refer to weren’t 14litre engines. The 220/250 was only 12.17 litres (743cu. ins). The 14 litre didn’t come along until about the mid 70’s I think. No wonder it lasted in production though. In my opinion it is probably the finest diesel engine ever built!

The 220 Rollers were the same size as the ■■■■■■■■

62

killsville:

ghinzani:
I know the MMB used to run 220 Rollers and ■■■■■■ 250s at that weight but upped to the 265 because they were a little sluggish, altho the ■■■■■■■ pulled well with those 14 litres.

The early ■■■■■■■ that you refer to weren’t 14litre engines. The 220/250 was only 12.17 litres (743cu. ins). The 14 litre didn’t come along until about the mid 70’s I think. No wonder it lasted in production though. In my opinion it is probably the finest diesel engine ever built!

The 220 Rollers were the same size as the ■■■■■■■■

I’m pretty sure that the 250 ■■■■■■■ they had were 14 litre ones, as they were in P reg and later B series. They did have some old A series at other depots that had older ■■■■■■■■ Were the earlier ones called NH series and the later 14 litres called NT? I know ■■■■■■■ previously made a V8 as well, and they also made a 320/350hp range from the 60s onward - I guess these were 14 litres? They certainly were popular motors, we had a Frank Tucker ERF with full works sleeper on loan once but I cant remember it being quicker than the tweaked 265 Roller. The 10 litre that ■■■■■■■ replaced the 250 and eventually 290 was also a very advanced engine for its day, but theyw ere unpopular down west because of all our hills! There was a snobbery against them I guess based on the fact that they werent seen as true 38 tonners.

63

Sheeter:
The Mandator units with the Ergomatic Cab had inline 6 cylinder engines, the AV760 (12.4 litres) or V-8’s (AV800 Series) of 12.1 and later 13.1 litres.

I only ever drove the 6 cyl. ones and they were like farm tractors, the massive gear stick required you to almost stand up to lift it into reverse. They were operated at 32 ton but that was about their limit.

I also drove the AEC Mercury rigid flats on 16 ton work (AV505. 8.2 litre) and remember them capable of about 70mph in the right conditions.

Do you know if the AV-760 became the TL12 under Leyland? I can recall some Orange painted Leylan Buffaloes that were hauling spuds, I think they had TL11s rather than AEC engines in them. Can remember being very impressed with the fact they had sleeper cabs and no great big holes in the floor a la the Mandator!

64

Spardo:
While we’re on the subject of ERF & MAN, whatever happened to the link up with Western Star? Did MAN buy from or with?

Salut, David.

Think ERF were bought by MAN off of Western-Star in 97, in fact didnt they buy Western-Star? It all gets a bit difficult to follow - Western Star used to be aligned with White I believe, but Freightliner were also aligned with White IIRC - in the end Merc got Freightliner, Volvo got White and maybe MAN got Western Star (who I never thought were that high capacity a manufacturer). I pray ERF doesnt go the same way as Bussing and Borgward have, and lose their identity in the MAN group - is MAN part of VAG (vw/audi)■■

Do ERF offer MAN engines in their lorries today? I know they went very pro-■■■■■■■ in the mid 80s, but then Ive seen units on EBAY with CAT engines too. Do they still offer Rolls/Gardne/Perkins motors?.

65

Yes

ERFs are offered with MAN engines. The highest rated ■■■■■■■ currently on offer is the 420 - nowhere near the maximum offered by the in-house range. I believe that the D20 common-rail will be available to ERF owners soon.

Going back to the engines of yesteryear for a moment, and in particular Gardner.

The 6LX (150), 6LXB (180), 6LXC (201) and 6LXCT (230 Turbo) were all 10.45 litres in capacity.

The 8LXB (240), 8LXC (265) and 8LXCT (300 Turbo) were all 13.96 litres.

To say that the last Gardner 6LYT fitted to a Seddon-Atkinson went into an F-reg 4-11 (W&J Riding) shows that they live well in most people’s memories. Paul Gardner still has premises at Barton Hall, Patricroft and does engine refurbishment and parts sales.

With regard to the ■■■■■■■ engines of the time, the 180, 205 and 220 were all 12.1 litre. The differences in output were all attributable to the pump ratings.

The 240s and 250s (NHC, NT and NTC variants) were all 14-litre units - there was never a 12.1-litre 250. The most successful variant of the 14-litre engines was the NTE 290 ‘big cam’ that became the benchmark proprietry power unit of the period. Rolls-Royce tried to compete with their Eagle 290, but it never sold as many units nor was it as reliable in the field.

Comparing the 14-litre ■■■■■■■ and the 10.45-litre Gardner is like comparing apples with oranges. They are both legendary in their own right, but for the purist, the Gardner will live longer in the memories of people in this country due to the heritage of the manufacturer and that of the vehicle makers who used them… That they held so much loyalty for so long when Rolls-Royce, ■■■■■■■■ Perkins and others were eating into their market is purely down to the efficiency of the product and the sheer engineering prowess that went into creating it.

■■■■■■■ engines are simple by comparison, and they just work - there is very little to enthuse about other than that. they eventually got the economy right after many years of modifying the product - but given the sheer scale of their home market in the USA, it was only a matter of time (and dollars) before they overtook Gardner in this country.

I know one thing for certain - you don’t need a can of Easystart to fire up a 180 Gardner. Try starting a 220 ■■■■■■■ on a cold morning with just the button and you’ll soon be wishing you’d filled up the Start-Pilot when the batteries give up…

66

This is all very interesting and educational stuff. The AV760 did become the TL12 and the TL11was an updated version of the 680 which itself had been offered in the late 60’s in turbocharged form called the 690 turning out 240bhp. In the light of this the irony is that if Leyland had stuck with developing the 680/690 instead of the 500 series, their reputation and obviously sales may not have taken such a battering. A Leyland salesman who I knew personally, told me in 1978 that they would never get the 500 engine right and had to stick with it because of the money already spent which seems to be internal politics which of course was a big problem with the Leyland set up at the time. He was trying to flog 250 ■■■■■■■ powered Marathons and later went to Volvo.

Some time later I did have 502 engined Buffalo which was restricted to 2200rpm instead of 2600 it still did 60 mph and it pulled like a good’un. Having said that, this was its 3rd engine.I was told by previous drivers that in unrestricted form it would catch 88’s and overall it still remains one of the best wagons I have ever driven.

AEC engineers knew what the problem with the V8 800 series were, but Leyland were calling the shots by then and wanted it released.They were before my time but I worked with a bloke who had used one, possibly for a company called Chapman Group and he said they were a total powerhouse.
AEC were developing a turbo version of the AV505 called the AV506 a number of which I believe were actually built in naturally aspirated form but once again Leyland put the block on it in favour of the 500 series.

So,at the end of the 60’s Leyland group were hit by two bad engines. One could have been sorted and the other was always going to be a demic but they chose to stick with the latter which sadly seems to sum up the situation.

67

There seems little doubt that the political madness that prevailed as Leyland dictated to the AEC design and development teams ultimately caused the downfall of the operation.

By the late sixties, the machine shops at Southall were in desperate need of new equipment and were allowed to fall into disrepair by the Leyland management - it suited their ambitions to demote the AEC brand behind it’s own using whatever means they could.

There can be little arguement that Southall had a proven product and that in terms of engineering it was sound and reliable. The AV800 would’ve become as reliable and therefore successful as the in-line products given the financial and political stability it needed to complete proving. As Boden rightly recalls, Leyland took the decision to commence production before this had been achieved - their motives for such a decision can only now be debated in retrospect.

68

great stuff people!
I will post some more in-depth questions when Im back from the Rowe lorries 50th celebrations and not on dial-up, but a quick one for you Marky - 6lyt - same 10.45 litre engines as all the other 6’s? What was the power rating on this one?

cheers all

69

The 6LYT was Gardner’s equivelent of the AEC AV800 - released before it’s time in 1984 as a last ditch attempt to recapture lost ground from ■■■■■■■ and Perkins…

It was a thumping great 15.49 litre in-line 6-cylinder, initially rated at 300 bhp, with later versions pushing out 320 & 350 bhp.

It leaked oil everywhere, failed EU emissions and was ultimately starved of the cash it needed during R&D. It was a great shame because with the previously legendary Gardner engineering, it could’ve been a worthy successor to the LX range.

Also released in 1984 was the 6LXDT which was another new design. It was another in-line 6-cylinder at 12.68 litres and was available initially rated at 270 bhp and was targetted at the eight-wheeler market. It was later available from 230 bhp to 310 bhp, when the models were renamed 230T, 250T, 270T and 290T and 310T but like the LYT couldn’t recapture the share of the market lost to ■■■■■■■■ Perkins and Caterpillar.

70

I’ll give you an idea of how Leyland Group could lose customers.

In 1969 my family bought from Oswald Tillotson in Trafford Park a AEC Mercury rigid after good service from a couple of consecutively bought Morris 7 tonners. At 23000mls a con rod went through the block on the A1. The wagon was still under warrranty so it was a surprise when a very big bill for parts and labour turned up .My brother queried this in no uncertain terms and after a lot of letter writing including to Southall with no sucess, he wrote to the top man at what had become Lex Tillotson. In fairness he rapidly sorted this out and suggested a charge for towing from Leeeming to Bradford and everything else written off, which was agreed to.

This, as they say left a nasty taste with regard to customer relations. Years later I was told by someone in the know that it was typical of how Leyland were pressuring their subsidiaries and on their own AEC would have taken very different line and as Marky has pointed out, the plant at Southall was in need of investment that was’nt happening.

Before buying that AEC various makes were considered. BMC as Morris had become, had just released the new Mastiff 16 tonner and I remember looking round one with Dad at Kennings in Cheetham Hill who had given us good back up for some years. He was wary of that Perkins V8 and anybody would have said a AV505 would have been the better bet but that was’nt how it worked. I accept it was an isolated case and still think pound for pound the Mercury was the best 16 tonner ever built.

Thirty odd years on my brother, who doesnt take much interest in the wagon scene anymore, will occasionallly drift the conversation across to this event and although we never bought another vehicle, if we had it it would almost certainly been an import which is what was happening through the 70’s with other operators in the same line of work .

Leyland sales clearly showed they had the right product up to the late 60’s but then seem to have totally lost the plot in various ways, although they were ahead of the game in so many ways-high roof sleepers, semi-auto boxes eight wheel heavy tractors among others that are now current.

I’ll stick my neck out and say in an ideal world they could have rationalised to 3 main brands

BMC for light commercials
AEC for standard
Scammell for heavy

But now the factory that is left at a place called Leyland builds wagons called DAF and Foden

The truth really is stranger than fiction !!!

71

I remember driving an ERF with a 5 cylinder engine. It was called a Gardner 100, dont know what power it was, not a lot comes to mind

72

Wheel Nut:
I remember driving an ERF with a 5 cylinder engine. It was called a Gardner 100, dont know what power it was, not a lot comes to mind

It was probably a 5LW, with the 100 denoting the BHP.

73

My 1961 Bristol bus has got a Gardner 5HLW engine, it only puts out 85 bhp :frowning: so progress up hills is sloooooowwwwww. Fuel consumption is good though. (approx 15-20 mpg)

Mind you last year a piston ring failed and we needed to replace the piston, a valve and a new set of rings. Went to a bloke in Rugby and he had all of them on this shelf! (The rings had been manufactured in 1950)

Wonder if we can get parts for todays trucks in 2045? Think I’ll be past caring by then though.

Calv

74

ghinzani:
When I said earlier that the 180 was the engine of choice for 8 leggers, of course I should say it was the 150 motor that was always popular in this role, and the 180 came later and was regarded by some bosses as a luxury, high-powered option! Imagine all 6hp per ton at 30 tons from a 180.

^ In that is contained all you need to know about what actually started the demise of the British truck manufacturing industry.It was’nt unusual for the 180 to be considered enough for 32 t gross artics while the Swedes were flogging the F88 with even more powerful options on the drawing board in their home market and the rest is history.

75

marky:
I know one thing for certain - you don’t need a can of Easystart to fire up a 180 Gardner. Try starting a 220 ■■■■■■■ on a cold morning with just the button and you’ll soon be wishing you’d filled up the Start-Pilot when the batteries give up…

Sure I’ve mentioned this before elsewhere Marky, but Tom Llewellyn who used to be the boss of Econofreight in the 70s expressly forbade us from using Easy Start on the ■■■■■■■ in our Borderers. ‘Not necessary’ he used to say and we used to stand the cost ourselves. Loyalty or stupidity? The worm turned one freezing morning in Norfolk when I called BRS rescue to come and get me going and the ES can stayed firmly in the cab. That must have cost a fortune and really hurt. No reaction. The next freezing morning on the A1 in Yorkshire the same, and I called them out again. Still Tom wouldn’t relent but our local manager at Leicester quietly said 'use the EasyStart but book the cost to something else, parking charges for instance. Mind you it wasn’t ‘easy’ using EasyStart. What with the air intake round the left side of the cab back. A quick squirt, then a death defying sprint on the frozen ground round the front, a scramble up over the step rim into the cab, foot jammed on the accelerator and whirling the starter!

Ghinzani,
I remember having dinner with Peter Foden the erstwhile MD of ERF back in the 80s or 90s and was impressed by his enthusiasm for the marque and his obvious pride in the family history since the split from Foden in the 20s(?). When all others, including Foden, had fallen prey to others he still kept going and I thought what a masterly move when I heard of the Western Star link. So much better than going in with one of the mass producers. Western Star, had indeed been in the White fold but had been rejuvenated by an Australian entrepreneur who became the top man and was going from strength to strength. Don’t know what happened after that but I wonder what Peter (then probably retired) thought at the MAN takeover.

Salut, David.

76

I can appreciate why the use of Easy Start was forbade - principally because the use of it straight from the can is unmetered and potentially catastrophic if too much is used.

We’ve just installed a Start-Pilot on a Borderer with a 220 ■■■■■■■ in it, partly because it’s got a bad cold-start problem, and partly because it had one on it anyway. The pump that’s fitted is a dual-action (pumps when the plunger is withdrawn and pushed in), so half a pump out then in again is enough to start the motor without the accelerator.

The manufacturer claims that a full two-way pump is the correct metered volume to start the engine without damaging it - I’ll err on the side of caution and stick to a half measure just to be safe.

77

marky:
I can appreciate why the use of Easy Start was forbade - principally because the use of it straight from the can is unmetered and potentially catastrophic if too much is used.

.

I seem to remember a great ‘clang’ sometimes when starting, maybe this is what you’re talking about?

Salut, David.

78

marky:
The 6LYT was Gardner’s equivelent of the AEC AV800 - released before it’s time in 1984 as a last ditch attempt to recapture lost ground from ■■■■■■■ and Perkins…

It was a thumping great 15.49 litre in-line 6-cylinder, initially rated at 300 bhp, with later versions pushing out 320 & 350 bhp.

It leaked oil everywhere, failed EU emissions and was ultimately starved of the cash it needed during R&D. It was a great shame because with the previously legendary Gardner engineering, it could’ve been a worthy successor to the LX range.

Also released in 1984 was the 6LXDT which was another new design. It was another in-line 6-cylinder at 12.68 litres and was available initially rated at 270 bhp and was targetted at the eight-wheeler market. It was later available from 230 bhp to 310 bhp, when the models were renamed 230T, 250T, 270T and 290T and 310T but like the LYT couldn’t recapture the share of the market lost to ■■■■■■■■ Perkins and Caterpillar.

Marky I’ve just managed to find the copy of Truck magazine that details these engines arrival. I guess Perkins killed the 12 litre as soon as they bought Gardner as it was a direct rival to the Eagle. Shame they did’nt develop the 15 litre tho, that could have been a useful tool in these high-power output days.

79

Spardo:
Ghinzani,
I remember having dinner with Peter Foden the erstwhile MD of ERF back in the 80s or 90s and was impressed by his enthusiasm for the marque and his obvious pride in the family history since the split from Foden in the 20s(?). When all others, including Foden, had fallen prey to others he still kept going and I thought what a masterly move when I heard of the Western Star link. So much better than going in with one of the mass producers. Western Star, had indeed been in the White fold but had been rejuvenated by an Australian entrepreneur who became the top man and was going from strength to strength. Don’t know what happened after that but I wonder what Peter (then probably retired) thought at the MAN takeover.

Salut, David.

David,
Agree totally with what you are saying. I only met him the one time - I dragged my parents from our holiday cottage in the middle of the black mountains all the way over to the 1984 (i think, around that time) Motor Show at the NEC. Immediately I made a beeline for the ERF stand where I hoovered up brochures etc - I then asked a salesman if Peter would sign my spec sheet. He went off to find him but he was in the hospitality bit having a meeting. Anyway they said come back or I could wait, so I hung around (what else was there worth looking at!!) for about 3/4 quarters of an hour until he emerged. He was surprised I’d stuck around that long but had a little chat with me, and impressed me greatly. He knew where he wanted his company going, thats for sure - and a degree of independance was paramount. All in all a lovely man, and a reflection of his company and their lorries.

80

ghinzani:

Spardo:
Ghinzani,
I remember having dinner with Peter Foden the erstwhile MD of ERF back in the 80s or 90s and was impressed by his enthusiasm for the marque and his obvious pride in the family history since the split from Foden in the 20s(?). When all others, including Foden, had fallen prey to others he still kept going and I thought what a masterly move when I heard of the Western Star link. So much better than going in with one of the mass producers. Western Star, had indeed been in the White fold but had been rejuvenated by an Australian entrepreneur who became the top man and was going from strength to strength. Don’t know what happened after that but I wonder what Peter (then probably retired) thought at the MAN takeover.

Salut, David.

David,
Agree totally with what you are saying. I only met him the one time - I dragged my parents from our holiday cottage in the middle of the black mountains all the way over to the 1984 (i think, around that time) Motor Show at the NEC. Immediately I made a beeline for the ERF stand where I hoovered up brochures etc - I then asked a salesman if Peter would sign my spec sheet. He went off to find him but he was in the hospitality bit having a meeting. Anyway they said come back or I could wait, so I hung around (what else was there worth looking at!!) for about 3/4 quarters of an hour until he emerged. He was surprised I’d stuck around that long but had a little chat with me, and impressed me greatly. He knew where he wanted his company going, thats for sure - and a degree of independance was paramount. All in all a lovely man, and a reflection of his company and their lorries.

Right, so where is he now? When did he leave the business? I guess he’d be 50ish when I met him, so perhaps 70ish now. If you’re out there reading this Peter, come on down and lets be hearing from you. I’d love to hear your take on modern developements.

Salut, David.