Gardner and Rolls diesel information

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
41

marky:
I’m bringing the chip pan this year…

…if the chips are no good, the bonfire that follows will keep us all warm through the night.

We will have decent rally accommodation next year!!!

How it has all come on since the late 1980s, when we wedged ourselves into a trailer tent on the swan neck, and ate off one-pot cooking with a single primus stove! Young Dubious even slept across the Viewline seats at least once - all very authentic! AND we used to come home from Brighton overnight too - if only we’d had no.34 in those days!

42

To coin a badly used phrase - I think the rallying “reached a new zenith” a couple of years back when we were sat (at a proper table) ‘al fresco’ eating sausage casserole with new potatoes and a choice of vegetables for evening meal, followed by a proper sweet with custard!

I think we realised then & there that things would never be the same - we even have curry now!

Of course we have a new (to us) three piece suite and proper beds to sleep on now, and in recent times have even had proper interior lighting (oh, alright - a camping gaz lamp hung from the top of the tilt on a bungee strap!!). I believe we came close to being barred from Todds Camping Centre in Bamber Bridge through larking about while choosing equipment, so it show we really mean it these days!!

Of course, some of the more lily-livered among the fraternity still choose to head for the nearest Travel Lodge (you know who you are) but are always first out the next morning with the cloths loaded with wax to get the morning dew marks off the paintwork. Pot-hunters come in all shapes and sizes!!!

If you’re not waking up cold and ever so-slightly wishing you were at home on a wet summer morning in the back of a 70s tilt trailer - you’re not rallying!!

One chap (a couple of years ago) chose to sleep in a sleeping bag in the back of an eight-wheel tipper with no sheet over him. We arose the next morning and got the frying pan going, only to see the poor unfortunate - wobbling around the dormant vehicles, looking like he’d been dragged through a hedge backwards. Upon sidling up to us, we offered him a brew as he didn’t look in the best of order.

It later transpired that he’d had a relatively good night’s sleep until he woke up at 4am and thought he’d died - the mist had come down inside the tipper and he couldn’t see his hand in front of his face!! Fearing the worst, he jumped up (still fully zipped into the sleeping bag), caught sight of the rest of the showground above the mist, then fell over again back into the gloom - soaked throuugh with dew and the damp from the mist!!

Happy days…

43

marky:
To coin a badly used phrase - I think the rallying “reached a new zenith” a couple of years back when we were sat (at a proper table) ‘al fresco’ eating sausage casserole with new potatoes and a choice of vegetables for evening meal, followed by a proper sweet with custard!

I think we realised then & there that things would never be the same - we even have curry now!

Of course we have a new (to us) three piece suite and proper beds to sleep on now, and in recent times have even had proper interior lighting (oh, alright - a camping gaz lamp hung from the top of the tilt on a bungee strap!!). I believe we came close to being barred from Todds Camping Centre in Bamber Bridge through larking about while choosing equipment, so it show we really mean it these days!!

Of course, some of the more lily-livered among the fraternity still choose to head for the nearest Travel Lodge (you know who you are) but are always first out the next morning with the cloths loaded with wax to get the morning dew marks off the paintwork. Pot-hunters come in all shapes and sizes!!!

If you’re not waking up cold and ever so-slightly wishing you were at home on a wet summer morning in the back of a 70s tilt trailer - you’re not rallying!!

One chap (a couple of years ago) chose to sleep in a sleeping bag in the back of an eight-wheel tipper with no sheet over him. We arose the next morning and got the frying pan going, only to see the poor unfortunate - wobbling around the dormant vehicles, looking like he’d been dragged through a hedge backwards. Upon sidling up to us, we offered him a brew as he didn’t look in the best of order.

It later transpired that he’d had a relatively good night’s sleep until he woke up at 4am and thought he’d died - the mist had come down inside the tipper and he couldn’t see his hand in front of his face!! Fearing the worst, he jumped up (still fully zipped into the sleeping bag), caught sight of the rest of the showground above the mist, then fell over again back into the gloom - soaked throuugh with dew and the damp from the mist!!

Happy days…

And I’m sure you’ve heard the tales about the nights camped out on Paddington Wharf, with the ladies of the night in their noisy taxis and, at 5 a.m., the geese flying into the tent that was unexpectedly obstructing their customary flight path!

I used to find that a firm carrymat laid out in the back of the Thorny, and inside the tilt, used to be very comfy, but how that tilt rattles in the wind! I had one Saturday night out in Chiswick 10 years ago, perched on the old green sofa on the swan neck, where the wind howled around off the river all night, and I hardly slept a wink. Made up for it in Winchester the next night, by the time I’d driven that old Thorny from Chiswick to Basingstoke, and then onto Winchester. Deep joy.

44

marky:
we even have curry now!

Ah, my speciality!

Remember the college car park in Harrogate? The smell was so strong, it was attracting people who thought the tilt was a cafe and we ended up locking ourselves in the trailer so we could eat our meal in peace!

45

hiya,
what about gardner 4 lk and 4lw,walshy had one or two in those coach built atkis they had scammell couplings but 5th wheel overlays on them and pulling tandem trailers, i know i worked there a couple of times in the early 60s and always got lumbered with one thanks harry long retired

46

marky:
I’ve heard that same reasoning behind why you shouldn’t use Easy Start.

I suppose the same goes for the ■■■■■■■ Fleetguard system and the Holts Start-Pilot.

The principle reason for engines becoming addicted to easy start is that the explosive combustion of easy start when ignited with the exceptionaly high compression of a diesel engine can break the top piston rings causing low compression, the engine then needing easy start even more.

Ross.

47

bigr250:

marky:
I’ve heard that same reasoning behind why you shouldn’t use Easy Start.

I suppose the same goes for the ■■■■■■■ Fleetguard system and the Holts Start-Pilot.

The principle reason for engines becoming addicted to easy start is that the explosive combustion of easy start when ignited with the exceptionaly high compression of a diesel engine can break the top piston rings causing low compression, the engine then needing easy start even more.

Ross.

So Tom Llewellyn was right at Econofreight to refuse to pay for Easy Start, but you would have thought that he would have come up with some other method of starting his blasted ■■■■■■■ in the winter rather than us using it anyway but disguising the cost with other items on the expenses sheet. :unamused: :laughing:

48

the rolls eagle series was in my opinion one of the best engines available at the time…
the 265 was an awesome puller for its time…
the 290 became a favorite for a lot of people…
all the good stuff before perkins…

49

lespaul1765:
the rolls eagle series was in my opinion one of the best engines available at the time…
the 265 was an awesome puller for its time…
the 290 became a favorite for a lot of people…
all the good stuff before perkins…

Spot on mate. :smiley:

50

hiya,
take it nobody’s heard of gardner 4lk and 4lw god i must be older than i thought, thanks harry long retired

51

Well harry_gill I have heard of the 2 Gardners you mentioned and at the transport museum where I restore old buses & wagons etc. we have a “5” pot Gardner LW in a single deck bus ! :astonished: :astonished: :astonished:

What a beast and a b***** bone shaker and teeth rattler that is when it is running! :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

The story about with this particular vehicle is that it was used as transport for the “residents” of Lancaster prison taking the “residents” from court to their new temporary home "courtesy of HMP :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: "

As for the 8LXB Gardner it was said that as long as long as old man Gardner was in charge of the co. a “Turbocharger” would never be fitted to a Gardner engine and true to his word Gardners only started fitting turbochargers after they were bought out by Hawker Siddeley.

When the govnmt. brought in the 6BHP per ton law in the 70`s Gardner didn,t go the easy way outand fit a “turbocharger” they stuck two extra pots on the engine instead!!!

I remember the “cruise control” unit fitted to Gardners (a stick jammed under the dash on the Atki,s) and to turn off the “cruise control” you just gave the stick a whack with your right boot!!!

52

NEJ:
When the govnmt. brought in the 6BHP per ton law in the 70`s Gardner didn,t go the easy way outand fit a “turbocharger” they stuck two extra pots on the engine instead!!!

The 6bhp/ton regulation applied from April 1973, but the 8LXB was unveiled in 1970. They did actually squeeze the 6LXB up to 201bhp to meet the required 192bhp at 32 tons. But not till too late…

53

Hello all

Been offline for a while due to connection difficulties, during this time I managed to rescue some of my old Truck mags from the late 70s early/mid 80s which jogged a few of the old brain cells. At the end of that period Gardner had just come thru a lockout by their workers and were struggling back to health - however they did have a very good new product (well as new as Gardners ever got) in the 6LXCT, rated at 238hp I believe (just enough for 38 tons). Anyway what transpired in the late 80s to them? I understand they were absorbed by Perkins, as were Rolls ( my personal faveourites). Did the Gardener engines survive as Perkins? I believe the Rolls Eagle 12 litres carried on being produced, can anyone fill in the blanks?

I’m also looking for sizes and power outputs for various engines, this is what I know from memory:
Gardener
6LXB - 6 cyl, ??litres? 180 hp (the classic 8 wheeler mill from the 60s n 70s)
6LXCT - 6 cyl turbo version of 6LXB - 230 hp?
8LW - 8 cyl 14litre?
8LXB - 8 cyl 14 litre 240 hp?
8LXC - 14 litre , 8cyl, 265 hp

Did they produce a Turbo/Intercooled 8LXB/C ? I recall one being planned of about 320 hp. I have also seen ads for a 6LXYCT rated at 340hp - did they really squeeze so much from what started out as a 150hp 6cyl?

With the Rollers I know they were 12 litres, 6 cyls - my old man had a 265 Roller that was a great motor. I also understand they got them up to 340hp by the end of the eighties - are these the same basic engine as the 800 series?

I’m unsure where Perkins would have fitted the Gardener range into theirs, altho the Rollers came in just above the existing Perkins engines. If I recall correctly they had a 204hp Perkins motor that Ford used to fit to the Cargo and rated at 32/34 tons. I suppose a Gardner of 230hp would fit nicely between that and an Eagle at 290hp plus.

Also on the subject of Ford Cargos at 32 tons, they also offered a 204hp Deutz powered unit which at the time was the lightest 32tonner around (before being eclipsed by the 10litre 250 ■■■■■■■■ - what happened to Deutz? At the time I believe they had been hived off from Magirus/IVECO, did the air-cooled engines carry on? And did they got more power from the 204hp model in the Cargos.

Sorry for all the questions, if anyone can help tho it would be good - t’internet seems a bit sparse on this subject.

I know Gardners and Rollers were greatly loved by Bosses (foremost) and drivers, lets hear your stories. In fact the firm my dad worked for they looked down on the ■■■■■■■ 14 litre, however these were only rated at 250hp so maybe it was the lack of ponies! I know my old mans 265 Roller had the pump way open, and went like a train - complete with clouds of smoke!

54

I seem to remember the Gardner 180 (6LXB) engine was 10,450 cc.
A lot of them went into buses and boats and are still in use.

55

Aha, thanks for that - I guess all the 6 cylinders were 10 1/2 - 11 litres then.
When I said earlier that the 180 was the engine of choice for 8 leggers, of course I should say it was the 150 motor that was always popular in this role, and the 180 came later and was regarded by some bosses as a luxury, high-powered option! Imagine all 6hp per ton at 30 tons from a 180. In fact that output would have made them illegal at 32 tons surely? I know the MMB used to run 220 Rollers and ■■■■■■ 250s at that weight but upped to the 265 because they were a little sluggish, altho the ■■■■■■■ pulled well with those 14 litres. I do vaguely recall AEC Mandators they ran at the time too, not sure what the output was from those AEC engines (they werent TL11’s Im sure) but they cant have been at 32 tons much, they were dog slow even when empty!

Do ■■■■■■■ still make the 14 litre? That basic designs been around since the 50s surely? Then again Gardner sixes powered Noahs Cattle transport fleet 'tis said!

56

The Mandator units with the Ergomatic Cab had inline 6 cylinder engines, the AV760 (12.4 litres) or V-8’s (AV800 Series) of 12.1 and later 13.1 litres.

I only ever drove the 6 cyl. ones and they were like farm tractors, the massive gear stick required you to almost stand up to lift it into reverse. They were operated at 32 ton but that was about their limit.

I also drove the AEC Mercury rigid flats on 16 ton work (AV505. 8.2 litre) and remember them capable of about 70mph in the right conditions.

57

:slight_smile: Ghinzani,
In the mid - seventies I drove for a container haulage firm on Merseyside who were big fans of Gardner - engined trucks.
Atkinsons, ERF - both A and early B series, a couple of Fodens and a couple of the (then ‘new’) Seddon Atkinson 400s. About 20 units in all, and only 4, I think, were not Gardner powered (2 Rolls Royce and 2 ■■■■■■■■■
Most were Gardner 180s and plated at 30 tons, but some had the bigger engine and were plated at the full 32 tons - and I can seem to recall these being referred to as the Gardner 240s. :wink: The firm had mostly those short 24ft Skelly trailers - tricky little rascals to reverse ! :slight_smile:

I think Gardner still have a place in Patricroft near Manchester where they do re -builds and refurbishments. I wonder how many Chinese Junks (small boats) are still running across Hong Kong harbour even today powered by the ‘Gardner’ engine that was fitted 30 or 40 years ago? ! :slight_smile:

The things I remember them for the most were :
~ lots of blue smoke when starting up in the early morning.
~ very low revving on tickover, and an unusual ‘uneven’ note too !
~ good fuel economy - definately a ‘bosses’ motor’ - 13 or 14 mpg was the norm, even at 30 tons.
~ took about 3 miles to wind her up to 50mph on the motorway :open_mouth: - gearbox in mine was a David Brown (6 speed, I think.)

58

ghinzani:
I know Gardners and Rollers were greatly loved by Bosses (foremost) and drivers, lets hear your stories. In fact the firm my dad worked for they looked down on the ■■■■■■■ 14 litre, however these were only rated at 250hp so maybe it was the lack of ponies! I know my old mans 265 Roller had the pump way open, and went like a train - complete with clouds of smoke!

Back in the pre-snowed-under-with-■■■■■■■ days Gardners were king. I am not sure they were much loved by drivers though, always a bosses motor. Plodding, reliable and thrifty. They ran so cool that if you had a heater it was useless. We used to plaster the front grills with cardboard just to stop from freezing to death. The stories were legion of their magical powers, of drivers trying to get something a bit more modern who ran them without oil or water - all to no avail. They just kept going! I remember when the big straight 8 came out there was an article in CM or MT about a showman lovingly looking one over and saying ‘give us ten years and we’ll inherit all of these’. How right he was. I think you can still see a shedful down the Goose Fair each year.
Most manufacturers (ERF, Atki etc) who fitted them stuck the extra length out of the back of the cab (no sleepers then remember) and you had to make ■■■■ sure you didn’t convert it to a 6 pot with a close coupled trailer swing. Foden, however stuck a little bonnet on the front of the cab to accommodate it. I had one at Econofreight, a real power motor coupled with that Foden 12 speed box.

Salut, David.

59

Some one may correct me here but before ERF was takenover by man
all ERIC VICKS motors were Gardner motors . I am not so sure now
perhaps the newer ones are fitted with ■■■■■■■■ Do we have any
drivers from the firm here if so it would be nice to hear about the
reliability and also problems if any with the machine

60

While we’re on the subject of ERF & MAN, whatever happened to the link up with Western Star? Did MAN buy from or with?

Salut, David.