Fucking unions

[franglais]

Nite Owl:

Franglais:

Nite Owl:
A few years ago the company i work for had a big expansion and a load of new drivers including me were taken on. The new drivers pay and perks weren’t as good as the original drivers and there’s still a few of them left. Recentlyy the company decided to increase the wages of new drivers to bring parity with the old contract and the old drivers got no extra.

One of the old drivers complained it was unfair that a load of drivers got a pay rise and he didn’t even though he was on a higher rate than us anyway. He went to the union. The company point was that it was trying to fair and pay everyone as similar a wage as it could. The union argued that everyone should get a pay rise.

The company argued that to give everyone a pay rise would just increase the unfairness and tried to give the old contracts a lower pay rise than the newer ones. The union said no. In the end the company spat it’s dummy out and said no one gets a rise. That was apparently ok with the union.

Thank you union.

If that happened at my workplace I think Id be pretty upset, and try to get to the bottom of it. Id be having words with union and management. I reckon most of us would.

So what did your union rep actually say? What does management say?
I am assuming you spoke to him/her/them and found out what was going on?
You wouldn`t just repeat a coffee room/RDC rumour as fact would you?

I did speak to the union rep who told me and I quote [zb] off your not in the union.
As you can imagine there’s a lot of bad feeling about the place right now. Me and a few other drivers have gone to management and told them we need a meeting about this to get our facts right and clear the air. Hopefully it’ll be in the next week.

So, the union rep only wants to deal with union members.
Is it possible that the older better paid drivers are union members, and the newer less well paid drivers are not in the union?
Never thought about joining the union yourself?

[yorkielad]

Nite Owl:
A few years ago the company i work for had a big expansion and a load of new drivers including me were taken on. The new drivers pay and perks weren’t as good as the original drivers and there’s still a few of them left. Recentlyy the company decided to increase the wages of new drivers to bring parity with the old contract and the old drivers got no extra.

One of the old drivers complained it was unfair that a load of drivers got a pay rise and he didn’t even though he was on a higher rate than us anyway. He went to the union. The company point was that it was trying to fair and pay everyone as similar a wage as it could. The union argued that everyone should get a pay rise.

The company argued that to give everyone a pay rise would just increase the unfairness and tried to give the old contracts a lower pay rise than the newer ones. The union said no. In the end the company spat it’s dummy out and said no one gets a rise. That was apparently ok with the union.

Thank you union.

The union were acting on behalf of it’s members,it’s very strange a company would only give a part pay rise,usually everyone gets one.
If the company were bothered about being fair they would have put you on the old T&C’s when you joined them.
I can understand your pain,there’s a couple of new contracts(salary,old are hourly) at our place,When we got a pay rise everyone got one though.
I don’t think the problem lies with the union here…

[wheel_nut]

waddy640:
Firstly the rail unions get what they want because they have the leverage to get it at the expense of the travelling public.

Secondly, if unions are so wonderful where are all the industries now that were highly unionised? The motor industry, docks, shipbuilding, coalmines, steelworks to name a few are virtually if not extinct.

The rail unions did nothing when Barbara Castle shut all the branch lines costing thousands of jobs!

[santa]

Now I’m a union man
Amazed at what I am
I say what I think
That the company stinks
Yes I’m a union man.

When we meet in the local hall
I’ll be voting with them all
With a hell of a shout
It’s out brothers out
And the rise of the factory’s fall.

Oh you don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

Strawbs - Part Of The Union

[wheel_nut]

Santa:
Now I’m a union man
Amazed at what I am
I say what I think
That the company stinks
Yes I’m a union man.

When we meet in the local hall
I’ll be voting with them all
With a hell of a shout
It’s out brothers out
And the rise of the factory’s fall.

Oh you don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
You don’t get me I’m part of the union
Till the day I die, till the day I die.

Strawbs - Part Of The Union

Then I got Mary pregnant
And man that was all she wrote
And for my nineteenth birthday I got a union card and a wedding coat
We went down to the courthouse
And the judge put it all to rest
No wedding day smiles no walk down the aisle
No flowers no wedding dress

[carryfast]

Nite Owl:
I did speak to the union rep who told me and I quote [zb] off your not in the union.

The question as to whether you’re part of the union or you’re not is a simple enough fact to get right.So are you or aren’t you ?.If you are then you’ve got a case to take it to a higher level of the union’s leadership.

If you aren’t ? then why would you expect the union to give a zb about your interests when you were obviously happy enough to join the firm on lower t’s and c’s than the established unionised workforce and obviously didn’t think about joining it after to get those t’s and c’s changed.Some would call it karma for obviously wanting all the benefits of union membership without wanting to be part of the solidarity that creates those benefits.

Having said that from experience I know that unions can be total tossers but you won’t fix that by not being a part of the process of putting them right.

[darkside]

The rail unions are not scum, quite the opposite, their members are the last industrial workers to enjoy top rate t’s and c’s, whilst many lorry drivers (especially in hire and reward which is on its arse) are scandalously poorly paid and have been for years, the rail unions also recommended their members to vote for Brexit, again that was in the interests of the British working class generally and certainly their own members.

Not relevant to road haulage though…

They are also the last industrial workers that are able to walk off the job, and not be replaced easily. Completely different to Road Transport, and another reason why Railfreight isn’t attractive.

Stobart and Downton have union membership, but if they walked out would the lorries stand? Doubt it, and if they did XPO and Wincanton etc. would cover the work.

If train drivers walk out the trains don’t move.

[juddian]

Darkside:

The rail unions are not scum, quite the opposite, their members are the last industrial workers to enjoy top rate t’s and c’s, whilst many lorry drivers (especially in hire and reward which is on its arse) are scandalously poorly paid and have been for years, the rail unions also recommended their members to vote for Brexit, again that was in the interests of the British working class generally and certainly their own members.

Not relevant to road haulage though…

They are also the last industrial workers that are able to walk off the job, and not be replaced easily. Completely different to Road Transport, and another reason why Railfreight isn’t attractive.

Stobart and Downton have union membership, but if they walked out would the lorries stand? Doubt it, and if they did XPO and Wincanton etc. would cover the work.

If train drivers walk out the trains don’t move.

Part of the reason the train drivers are difficult to replace is that they didn’t demand/welcome/encourage their jobs to be cheapened/deskilled/made easy in the first place , they fought against such moves and continue to do so, i have no doubt it will be a fight eventually lost but until that sad day comes i wish them all the best in their jobs

Drivers wanted not to touch the load and to chauffeur lorries that any fool could steer because they are now automated large cars requiring almost zero skill strength or nous to operate, and that’s exactly what they got, hence any fool off the street can be dragged in given a week’s training in how drive a large car and once the ever easier test is passed hey presto driver replaced.
The other problem being the job is now relatively clean and easy and hence way oversubscribed.

If we assume all these large operators are unionised then in the event of a dispute solidarity kicks in and no such scab actions undermine? er no, again this is the difference between lorry and train drivers, the latter support each other.

The lorry drivers who are still doing well (without having to work all hours God sends) are often in specialised sectors, which can’t be simplified down to numbskull level despite this being tried and backfiring regularly, this is not a coincidence.

The OP’s problem here is that as a non union member he would not have been present in the union meetings, hence chinese whispers will have played a large part on what he thinks he knows.
As Franglais suggested, join the union and take part properly in the discussions and vote accordingly.
I am not unsympathetic to the situation, as one of the higher paid i once suggested at a meeting to have a varying scale of pay increases to try to level some of the increasing discrepencies caused by repeated percentage increases across the board, not even the members on the lower pay wanted to know, you can never please all of the people all of the time.
Whilst you are not in the union, and if the company has established collective bargaining, you’re not going to get anywhere, joining the union with all the other new starters is the best solution eventually there will be more of you than them, and the best of luck with getting any single one of the other new bods interested, they’d sooner winge and moan around the yard, am i wrong?

[carryfast]

Juddian:
Part of the reason the train drivers are difficult to replace is that they didn’t demand/welcome/encourage their jobs to be cheapened/deskilled/made easy in the first place , they fought against such moves and continue to do so, i have no doubt it will be a fight eventually lost but until that sad day comes i wish them all the best in their jobs

Drivers wanted not to touch the load and to chauffeur lorries that any fool could steer because they are now automated large cars requiring almost zero skill strength or nous to operate, and that’s exactly what they got, hence any fool off the street can be dragged in given a week’s training in how drive a large car and hey presto driver replaced.

If we assume all these large operators are unionised then in the event of a dispute solidarity kicks in and no such scab actions undermine? er no, again this is the difference between lorry and train drivers, the latter support each other.

The lorry drivers who are still doing well (without having to work all hours God sends) are often in specialised sectors, which can’t be simplified down to numbskull level despite this being tried and backfiring regularly, this is not a coincidence.

Ironically the strongest ( road transport ) union environment I ever worked in was night trunking with box bodied trucks all loaded tipped by warehouse staff. Which often involved me getting 10 hours pay for 6-7 hours,or overtime for still doing less than the guaranteed 10,as part of a water tight job and finish agreement which did what it said on the tin.

Then the union must have taken your advice by agreeing that it was a good idea for us to get involved with loading and unloading duties just as all the pallet work was taken out so the lose lose that it was all hand ball.

I don’t think that train drivers have to wait for/load and tip all the containers they carry during a shift in that regard.You can add to that automatic signal protection devices which means that even if they miss a signal the thing will stop itself.Compare that with the results of a truck driver misreading let alone not reading the road ahead correctly during a 15 hour shift with obviously at least 5 hours of that involving waiting around and all that ‘other work’ which you’ve piled onto the unfortunate driver to justify his wages.

[norfolkinclue1]

Juddian:

Darkside:

The rail unions are not scum, quite the opposite, their members are the last industrial workers to enjoy top rate t’s and c’s, whilst many lorry drivers (especially in hire and reward which is on its arse) are scandalously poorly paid and have been for years, the rail unions also recommended their members to vote for Brexit, again that was in the interests of the British working class generally and certainly their own members.

Not relevant to road haulage though…

They are also the last industrial workers that are able to walk off the job, and not be replaced easily. Completely different to Road Transport, and another reason why Railfreight isn’t attractive.

Stobart and Downton have union membership, but if they walked out would the lorries stand? Doubt it, and if they did XPO and Wincanton etc. would cover the work.

If train drivers walk out the trains don’t move.

Part of the reason the train drivers are difficult to replace is that they didn’t demand/welcome/encourage their jobs to be cheapened/deskilled/made easy in the first place , they fought against such moves and continue to do so, i have no doubt it will be a fight eventually lost but until that sad day comes i wish them all the best in their jobs

Drivers wanted not to touch the load and to chauffeur lorries that any fool could steer because they are now automated large cars requiring almost zero skill strength or nous to operate, and that’s exactly what they got, hence any fool off the street can be dragged in given a week’s training in how drive a large car and once the ever easier test is passed hey presto driver replaced.
The other problem being the job is now relatively clean and easy and hence way oversubscribed.

If we assume all these large operators are unionised then in the event of a dispute solidarity kicks in and no such scab actions undermine? er no, again this is the difference between lorry and train drivers, the latter support each other.

The lorry drivers who are still doing well (without having to work all hours God sends) are often in specialised sectors, which can’t be simplified down to numbskull level despite this being tried and backfiring regularly, this is not a coincidence.

The OP’s problem here is that as a non union member he would not have been present in the union meetings, hence chinese whispers will have played a large part on what he thinks he knows.
As Franglais suggested, join the union and take part properly in the discussions and vote accordingly.
I am not unsympathetic to the situation, as one of the higher paid i once suggested at a meeting to have a varying scale of pay increases to try to level some of the increasing discrepencies caused by repeated percentage increases across the board, not even the members on the lower pay wanted to know, you can never please all of the people all of the time.
Whilst you are not in the union, and if the company has established collective bargaining, you’re not going to get anywhere, joining the union with all the other new starters is the best solution eventually there will be more of you than them, and the best of luck with getting any single one of the other new bods interested, they’d sooner winge and moan around the yard, am i wrong?

Usual brainwashed, inaccurate horse manure Juddian, nice to see you are consistent.
Love the use of Bob Crow too, I’m sure any low wage worker with a family in need of authority housing in the North London borough where he lived will also agree he is a hero too
If employee A is in a union and gets paid more than B who isn’t but both work in the same job then that’s not right on a basic level of equal rights in the modern world,however it’s clearly down to B to sort it out by making representations to the employer as is his right.
In the case from the OP it seems the company has taken it upon itself to do something about it. So now when A finds out B has been offered a pay increase simply to bring about parity, A kicks off and demands a pay rise simply on the basis that B got offered one then follows up with threats/intimidation/generic union reactions ( take your pick, we all know how it works )
So, Juddian, if the union is all about fair treatment for workers why would they kick off, they should be happy to see the working class get better wages on the back of what they have acheieved in that workplace!?! Isn’t that exactly what you and others keep banging on about when praising unions, about others being ignorant to all that they do for us? Here’s why Juddian, the ugly truth about unions is exposed yet again as a group of self serving bullies out to grab for themselves no matter what the cost, they don’t want fair treatment for the working class, they want it all for themselves and no one else even if it means bringing companies or industry down.
It’s 6 figure salaries and political greed at the top fed by brainwashed cowards at the bottom with weasels as the go between reps.
I’d query any understanding you have of employment law but then after 30 years of being spoon fed your thoughts I’d doubt its worth explaining your rights in the modern world.
This should wind you up too,a long time friend works for Wincanton, at Heinz when you sign up you are offered the chance to join a union if you wish, if you don’t then no problem but by signing the contract you agree to be represented in any discussions by the union and adhere to any changes in terms, so no union membership but the same pay and conditions…ouch
Oh and you mentioned DHL, here’s a question for you my little union ■■■■■, a former colleague works for Travis at Appleton but gets paid 3 and a half grand less than his colleagues just up the road at the new site for the same job, in the same company but all are in a union. He’s been told there is no chance of parity so what’s the point of the union there??
Finally, you mention the dumbing down of the job, how clean it is and is therefore over subscribed and that’s the reason the wage and conditions dropped.
Can you explain to me what difference membership of a union makes when the issue about “over subscribed” is clearly linked to open borders and an influx of cheap labour, something you have chosen to ignore at your convenience.
Are you suggesting that the union and companies they are in should discriminate against foreign labour or that the whole industry should have enforced membership of unions ( closed shop) in order to get a job as a driver and therefore how that would stand both in UK law and European law.
Feel free to take your time with you answer while we all fondly remember the gold old days of closed shop industries and how they are thriving today. Let’s hope that it all comes back so that a powerful drivers union can demand better conditions for all in an industry awash with extra cash to pay for it all and safe in the knowledge that no one 30 miles from Dover will literally sail in and do it instead.
oh, and for the love of god try your hardest not to mention Thatcher, I’m on about the here and now and what the OP has mentioned in his post.
If you mention Thatcher then I can only assume you genuinely believe that had we carried on with the same union power from that time to now then we wouldn’t have any competition from the Far East and we would be the most powerful economy in the world, that our steel and motor industry would be bigger than China’s in the global economy thanks to closed shop union industry. I often think that those who have to mention Thatcher do so because they choose to ignore the last 30 years of economic development around the world. I didn’t like her at all by the way, just so you know Juddian.

[chester1]

Wouldn’t the easyest thing be for the firm to do is put every one on a rate a fiver a week more than the higher rate drivers then every one has got a pay rise and all on the same rate. The higher rate guys probably would not have moaned as they had something at stake to lose. I have never worked at a place where a union has done any thing but hinder. One respected felixstowe haulier in I was working at in the 90s went as far as saying to the union keep pushing and I will shut the ■■■■■■ gates. Then said get your self a drivers committee and I will deal with you we did and got a lot more than any union had ever done in the past. But I have stay they was a great family firm to work very fair they just hated unions asking for the unreasonable

[maga]

It’s really quite simple when you’re a unionised workforce. Either you all get a pay rise, or none of you do. The fact you started on a lower rate compared to the old hands is irrelevant.

Also, join the union if you actually want to have a say. I’d get told to ■■■■ off by our shop steward if I wasn’t a member too!

[vid]

maga:
Also, join the union if you actually want to have a say.

Unless you have a strong personality then joining a union, especially as a new employee, doesn’t give you any say whatsoever, those in positions of ‘power’ and their cronies make sure that the status quo will NEVER change.

[maga]

Vid:

maga:
Also, join the union if you actually want to have a say.

Unless you have a strong personality then joining a union, especially as a new employee, doesn’t give you any say whatsoever, those in positions of ‘power’ and their cronies make sure that the status quo will NEVER change.

My experience of being a union is very different. Although it’s not driving related,it’s still a semi skilled job any one could do and staff easily replaceable (factory work).

Without the union I wouldn’t be paid the highest for vehicle manufacturing in the UK, annual above inflation pay rises, good pension, 37 hour week etc etc

[robroy]

Nite Owl:
A few years ago the company i work for had a big expansion and a load of new drivers including me were taken on. The new drivers pay and perks weren’t as good as the original drivers and there’s still a few of them left. Recentlyy the company decided to increase the wages of new drivers to bring parity with the old contract and the old drivers got no extra.

One of the old drivers complained it was unfair that a load of drivers got a pay rise and he didn’t even though he was on a higher rate than us anyway. He went to the union. The company point was that it was trying to fair and pay everyone as similar a wage as it could. The union argued that everyone should get a pay rise.

The company argued that to give everyone a pay rise would just increase the unfairness and tried to give the old contracts a lower pay rise than the newer ones. The union said no. In the end the company spat it’s dummy out and said no one gets a rise. That was apparently ok with the union.

Thank you union.

You don’t say if you are a member of said Union, I’m rightly or wrongly assuming you aint.
If I was a driver in a firm and a select few drivers were getting a pay raise and I was not, I reckon I’d be a bit ■■■■■■ also.
Whether I was on more money in the first place is irrelavent.

If you are not a Union member you can not blame the Union for acting for their members, or if you are a member… you use the word ‘‘apparentlly’’ to describe the Union’s attitude, maybe the situation has not been put to bed yet.

I know a hell of a lot of drivers because of the length of time I’ve been in this job, and its not just a mere coincidence that every single one of them say that they are on better t.s and c.s than those who work for a non Union firm…the latter including me.

If Unions don’t suit you then everyone is different, so be it, I don’t really care tbh, but say what tf you like, in every aspect of life there is ‘always safety in numbers’ and more to be achieved as a group than as a single voice.

I know for a fact that my firm would not dish out half the crap they do if everyone was a… ‘‘single entity’’ (if the word ‘‘union’’ and the negative connotations associated with it offends you. )

Sure, you can achieve things for yourself, no.1, if you have the balls to stand up to them, but not everyone has unfortunately, so the crap still keeps on coming to everyone…just read the majority of posts on here complaining about the sh in the job if you can’t take my word for it.

As for me, at the end of the day, I’m personally ok on the whole, as I’m known for not taking crap (not being the big man here btw, just saying it as it is, could not give a ■■■■ if that offends some on here) but I’d much prefer it if everybody else had fair treatment, but you can’t herd cats, and a mixture of brainwashed and timid cats are even worse.

[malcolmgbell]

Brexit

[carryfast]

There’s something that doesn’t quite add up in the case of an employer which supposedly bases its t’s and c’s on recognised collective union agreements which are by definition binding on both sides and cover all employees whether new starters and/or non members or otherwise.Which makes the issue of new starters or non members v members moot and its anyone’s guess how the employer could then be running a two tier wage structure based on collective agreements that are only binding on some employees but not others.As stated I can certainly remember a collective union agreement that actually worsened my terms of employment regarding duties and in which leaving the Union wouldn’t have made the slightest difference to me still being subject to that collective agreement.

As for the OP if it had been an old school closed shop which made you join the union as part of the job offer would you have happily then taken the job ?.While knowing it was a union firm why didn’t you just join the union when you started regardless and then asked the question how can you have a two tier collective wage structure applying to some of the workforce and not others which totally defeats the object of collective bargaining and agreements ?.

[robroy]

Nite Owl:
I did speak to the union rep who told me and I quote [zb] off your not in the union.
.

I missed that bit when I answered your o/p last night.

So you aint in the Union after all then…, presumably because of some drip fed induced ‘divide and conquer’ (apparently they work ) type principles? that we hear everyday, where you…

‘’’ Wouldn’t join a ■■■■ union if your life depended on it’‘/’‘look what happened in the 70s’‘/’‘only in it for themselves’‘/’‘do more harm than good’’ blah ■■■■ blah …type thing,

On the other hand though, it’s blatantly evident at your firm that the guys in the Union have better t’s. and c.s …(no ■■■■ , funny that eh?)
Then you say the Union rep aint intersted in your ‘‘plight’’ ■■ really ■■ :…can’t think why that is.

Maybe there’s a message in there somewhere.

[carryfast]

robroy:

Nite Owl:
I did speak to the union rep who told me and I quote [zb] off your not in the union.
.

I missed that bit when I answered your o/p last night.

So you aint in the Union after all then…, presumably because of some drip fed induced ‘divide and conquer’ (apparently they work ) type principles? that we hear everyday, where you…

‘’’ Wouldn’t join a [zb] union if your life depended on it’‘/’‘look what happened in the 70s’‘/’‘only in it for themselves’‘/’‘do more harm than good’’ blah [zb] blah …type thing,

On the other hand though, it’s blatantly evident at your firm that the guys in the Union have better t’s. and c.s …(no [zb] , funny that eh?)
Then you say the Union rep aint intersted in your ‘‘plight’’ ■■ really ■■ :…can’t think why that is.

Maybe there’s a message in there somewhere.

^ This.

‘If’ the story is even true.( Doubtful ) knowing the definition of a contract based on recognised collective agreements which by definition cover all the workforce whether they are in the union or not.

[norfolkinclue1]

robroy:

Nite Owl:
I did speak to the union rep who told me and I quote [zb] off your not in the union.
.

I missed that bit when I answered your o/p last night.

So you aint in the Union after all then…, presumably because of some drip fed induced ‘divide and conquer’ (apparently they work ) type principles? that we hear everyday, where you…

‘’’ Wouldn’t join a [zb] union if your life depended on it’‘/’‘look what happened in the 70s’‘/’‘only in it for themselves’‘/’‘do more harm than good’’ blah [zb] blah …type thing,

On the other hand though, it’s blatantly evident at your firm that the guys in the Union have better t’s. and c.s …(no [zb] , funny that eh?)
Then you say the Union rep aint intersted in your ‘‘plight’’ ■■ really ■■ :…can’t think why that is.

Maybe there’s a message in there somewhere.

So in one post you want everyone to have fair treatment, but then you write the above?
To summarise, your in favour of discrimination in the work place and every one deserves it if they didn’t join a union?
Any chance you can spend a few pages educating me and everyone else on why the unions came around and then apply that to what you have said. It seems that unless you pay money to a club then you deserve to be shafted, which in itself is elitist.
You would be happy to see a fellow worker paid less than you just because of his political or moral belief, that’s ■■■■■■■ tragic in this day and age and exposes yet again the truth about unions, it’s not about us the working class, it’s about the members who pay for the privillege…sounds almost Tory?
For the record, I totally and utterly get why unions evolved in a time where there wasn’t even what you would call a “working class” , they were barely above slavery to be fair.
However in the modern world of rights and legal representation I don’t think they really have any function other than to exploit on a political basis. As was mentioned in a previous post, we should have representation in the work place, but on an individual business level , not an industry basis as each business faces different challenges in the world we live in.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned that when they whine on about the rail industry. In my view a driving reason train drivers are on such good terms is because they have no competition, yes they have regulations beyond belief but they have no threat so can demand what they need, there’s no track next to the ones they have that can undercut them, there is no track from Bulgaria that can swerve the regs and go cheaper. It’s a passenger/freight train, it’s the only one and it gets done the way they want it done.
Sorry Rob, we will always disagree on unions, I couldn’t give a ■■■■ about that awful woman Thatcher, I just believe you should be treated equally in the workplace in this day and age, as I have the means to do so myself then why should I be forced to join a union in order to be treated the same? It’s turned fully on its head…