Own Account Driver:
Given the time it has taken to get to trial the prosecution side really ought to have had their [zb] together a bit better.
Bearing in mind what we’re discussing here.Presenting as little real evidence as possible and relying instead on mud slinging and hope enough of it sticks would always have been the plan for the prosecution from the start.IE what are they possibly trying to hide or cover up for and why. 
The vosa man described the vehicle in an interview as ‘a ■■■■■■■■■■■■■’
Wildy:
The vosa man described the vehicle in an interview as ‘a piece of [zb]’
Seems to fit the definition of irrelevant mud slinging.Rather than objective clear evidence that proves a case beyond reasonable doubt. 
Wildy:
The vosa man described the vehicle in an interview as ‘a piece of [zb]’
He was a lot less confident under cross examination though.
He said the braking efficiency would not have been “massively” affected by the fact that the driver’s side slack adjustor on the front axle was 3mm outside the recommended setting range, but that he could not say that it would not have affected the braking performance at all.
Read more at bathchronicle.co.uk/live-day … G7iTbUR.99
It may well have been an old snotter that would be better sat in Southampton waiting for a boat to Africa but he would have more credibilty if, instead of being caught saying that on record, he set out a strong case that maintenance on the vehicle was of a criminally negligent standard and, for which, the operator is liable.
If anyone wants to see examples of proper, detailed technical investigation into accidents, taking into account all human factors as well as mechanical, the reports published by the Government’s Rail Accident investigation Branch (Google RAIB) and the similar body that covers Marine accidents (MAIB) cover absolutely everything objectively.
A similar investigation in this case would have answered all the questions which have been asked in this thread.
They do, however, state that their investigations are “not to establish blame, but to identify causes,and make recommendations to prevent similar incidents”, so their findings may not be published till after any court case.
Own Account Driver:
It may well have been an old snotter that would be better sat in Southampton waiting for a boat to Africa but he would have more credibilty if, instead of being caught saying that on record, he set out a strong case that maintenance on the vehicle was of a criminally negligent standard and, for which, the operator is liable.
Together with exhibits identified abc- etc etc corresponding to axles 1,2,3 and 4 offside and nearside showing whatever clearly cooked drums and sets of linings and whatever cold ones.Together with an answer to the question as to why such a failure couldn’t conceivably possibly be the result of an intermittent ABS system failure in which the ABS hasn’t failed safe.Or has such a possibility even been investigated.While if it isn’t possible then why introduce over looking of the ABS warning as evidence of dangerous driving.All bearing in mind DVSA advice to drivers regarding continuing a journey in the event of an ABS warning.
As for an answer as to why they don’t seem to have done so,relying on just a temperature reading taken 4 hours after the event instead,that might be because of the fact that such an exhibit of the relevant components might actually show 8 cooked drums and sets of linings.Possibly caused by over heating of the brakes starting with the 43 mph to 4 mph block change deceleration move combined with a severe decent immediately following it.The 43 mph to 4 mph deceleration and resulting loss of heat capacity in the brakes possibly being explained by the gears to go brakes to slow mantra of the DVSA’s driver training regime.
Own Account Driver:
He said the braking efficiency would not have been “massively” affected by the fact that the driver’s side slack adjustor on the front axle was 3mm outside the recommended setting range, but that he could not say that it would not have affected the braking performance at all.
Read more at bathchronicle.co.uk/live-day … G7iTbUR.99
I thought we were dealing with a lot more than one supposedly defective brakes ?.Also edit to add the examiner states he stripped the brakes to look for ‘discolouration’ ( blue drum surface ? ).There doesn’t seem to be any questions or answers as to whether any was found at that point nor for that matter glazed lining surfaces related to only the limited number of brakes supposedly serviceable.
In addition to which what is meant by the 250 degree C temperatures stated on day 6.Does that refer to the supposedly few serviceable brakes ?.If so it seems low for brakes cooked to the point of smoking. 
Oh wait the 250 C figure is just an estimate anyway.
Own Account Driver:
newmercman:
Now I like a conspiracy theory, but a cover up of the training regime? Come on… seriously!It’s a cover up of the decision to allow inexperienced teenagers to get behind the wheel of some of the biggest and heaviest vehicles on the road in a misguided attempt to combat the driver shortage problems.
Anyone with half a brain could foresee it ending in carnage and it has.
The gear the truck came to rest in is still conspicuously absent from the proceedings.
Witness statements confirmed he actually accelerated, in an attempt to catch his boss, on the steepest part of the hill. From experience, on that hill, with good performing disc brakes, you would potentially be in trouble if a child ran out at the school crossing. Once you have started the descent you would not want to touch the accelerator at all.
Your argument would hold water, once this is over and it’s deemed solely or mostly the drivers fault and if no one over the age of 21 has been at fault for a bad accident. You can’t say because a 19 year old has been involved in a bad one it proves it was a bad idea to lower the age from 21, I’d bet a driver of every age has been involved in a bad one, probably until you get into the later 70s/ 80s, you’ve got to be careful with stats!
If you present figures that the 18-21 age group are at fault at a significant % more than above and take into account, that that age group will have a significantly larger % of new hgv drivers than the rest, ideally you’d need to compare it to over that age group but with less than 3 years experience or the average experience of the 18-21 group. Or all inexperienced drivers or 2 or 3 years and see how the 18-21 age group fares once corrected for different numbers in the groups. Then that’ll mean something worth looking at.
Just because it’s ended in disaster, doesn’t mean someone has been more reckless. You could have 2 drivers doing the same thing, one ends in total disaster, the other ends up in a sand pit, with a recovery bill. The punishment doesn’t always fit the crime, as in the outcome.
I work at the bottom of a big hill, staxton hill, It warrants a sand pit at the bottom. We know when certain regular drivers who are delivering to us turn up, you can smell them every time and sometimes see the smoke. I had 1 driver turn up, cooked brakes and struggling to reverse onto the weighbridge, I gently enquired how long he’s been doing this, it was his 1st week, late 20s - mid 30s, now you’ve got to be careful, but it was bad enough I thought I had to say something, I asked him how he came down and told him how I come down. I’ll happily touch all my wheels when on the weighbridge and often do to feel for any imbalance. I’ve also had another artic driver follow me down the hill, straddle, the solid white lines, giving it both hands off the steering wheel, as in why you going so slow, looked 50 ish, the clue is, I’m in a bulker with 6 axles on the floor.
A 53 year old killed 2 people on staxton hill about 8 years ago, when the coach he was driving and possibly part owned couldn’t stop and went through the red traffic lights at the bottom, he knew it had defective brakes
I don’t believe the gear it was in is that significant in the blame of the driver. Don’t get me wrong, I run it upto the red line, but if you’re taught and the official way to do things is gears to go, brakes to slow, you then can’t blame a driver who does what he’s been told. Get on to the people who set policy.
Witness statements are notoriously unreliable and often contradictory, I’ve not seen the one that says what you’ve said, but seen some said the driving wasn’t good whilst other said it was fine prior to the hill. Was he speeding up to catch the boss or was that the start of the brake fade or was he releasing the brake in an attempt not to overheat them?
Wasn’t the lad from a farming background? So possibly driving big stuff for time. One of the issues I was told when I went to work on a farm, is truck drivers knacker the brakes far quicker than a tractor driver would on a tractor. As tractor brakes are nowhere near truck brakes and have to be nursed far more
Good lord I’ve never read so much old rubbish in years.
Back in the good old days I’m sure we had lorrys crash through brake fade when it was taught to use the gears to slow.
If it was down to overuse of brakes due to the way people are taught to drive I’m sure the roads of Cornwall and the Pennines would be littered with crashed lorrys.
Scania 4 series 8 wheelers are well known in the tipper industry for not been as sharp as other makes and do need regular maintenance to keep them tip top.
Not saying they are unsafe as they wouldn’t meet type approval if that was the case.
After reading the evidence from the trial of knackared slack adjusters etcno transport manager in place. It from experience is shoe string haulage old breakers subbing for agency’s and big firms no money to do it right but knows better than everyone else.
Feel sorry for the people killed and injured and there family’s and the driver. This will live with him forever and the reason he carried on was probably been nieave and firms like this were the only place he could get a start.
kr79:
Good lord I’ve never read so much old rubbish in years.
Back in the good old days I’m sure we had lorrys crash through brake fade when it was taught to use the gears to slow.
If it was down to overuse of brakes due to the way people are taught to drive I’m sure the roads of Cornwall and the Pennines would be littered with crashed lorrys.Scania 4 series 8 wheelers are well known in the tipper industry for not been as sharp as other makes and do need regular maintenance to keep them tip top.
Not saying they are unsafe as they wouldn’t meet type approval if that was the case.
After reading the evidence from the trial of knackared slack adjusters etcno transport manager in place. It from experience is shoe string haulage old breakers subbing for agency’s and big firms no money to do it right but knows better than everyone else.
There’s no way of comparing the old days with present day on a like with like basis.IE there was much more A and B road running and less if any motorways and heavy trucks running around with at best very marginal braking systems.On that note the question is how many ‘would’ have crashed because of brake fade without the essential use of gears to slow vehicles down to conserve braking capacity,not how many did.While given a similar type of routing as the pre motorway era yes I’d guess that we would see numerous examples of crashed present day vehicles through over use of brakes or at least even remotely comparably braked vehicles.
While as I’ve said you can’t really compare today’s environment of the less severe conditions of large scale motorway running and modern disc brakes combined with automated effective engine braking systems.Which leaves the question fine if the prosecution wants to make a case of bad operation in the form of poor maintenance and/or bad driving being the cause then prove it beyond reasonable doubt.The evidence so far presented not seeming to do that.Such as what actual physical evidence have we got that proves the prosecution case that the vehicle ran away because only a few brakes were in serviceable condition with others doing little if anything to slow the vehicle from the time it left the yard.Or that the faults in question would have been obvious to a competent driver.IE is it really so difficult for the prosecution to provide accurate physical evidence regarding brake temperatures and inbalance regards them and deceleration traces taken from the tacho such as the time/distance it covered to slow from 43 mph to 4 mph,all consistent with the script.
As opposed to the question were the brakes cooked by over use.In which case drum expansion/distortion,which takes place at lower temperatures than smoke,might possibly explain loss of adjustment travel.Or is it possible that an intermittent ABS fault could result in random loss of braking input and resulting inbalance and domino effect brake failure.Bearing in mind the conflict of interest,caused by the implications regarding the DVSA’s culpability,in either of those cases.Including the question why use the ABS warning as evidence of dangerous driving when the DVSA’s own position is that it’s a fail safe system that allows continuation of a journey.
kr79:
Good lord I’ve never read so much old rubbish in years.
Back in the good old days I’m sure we had lorrys crash through brake fade when it was taught to use the gears to slow.
If it was down to overuse of brakes due to the way people are taught to drive I’m sure the roads of Cornwall and the Pennines would be littered with crashed lorrys.Scania 4 series 8 wheelers are well known in the tipper industry for not been as sharp as other makes and do need regular maintenance to keep them tip top.
Not saying they are unsafe as they wouldn’t meet type approval if that was the case.
After reading the evidence from the trial of knackared slack adjusters etcno transport manager in place. It from experience is shoe string haulage old breakers subbing for agency’s and big firms no money to do it right but knows better than everyone else.
Feel sorry for the people killed and injured and there family’s and the driver. This will live with him forever and the reason he carried on was probably been nieave and firms like this were the only place he could get a start.
Unfortunately though the prosecution case, based on operator and maintenance, is continuing to crumble under cross examination today. The VOSA examiner has let himself be backed into a corner by the barrister and admitted, to the court, 1 in 10 trucks on the road have brakes in the same condition.
You read the prosecution case, prior to cross examination. To be honest, the investigation was poor, lacked rigour, hadn’t really found a smoking gun and it was painfully obvious they were excessively trumping up the defects and it was going to get torn to pieces. It plays very badly with the jury if the prosecution is felt to be exaggerating and they were guilty of exaggerating the severity, and significance, of the brake defects found in the aftermath.
Own Account Driver:
You read the prosecution case, prior to cross examination. To be honest, the investigation was poor, lacked rigour, hadn’t really found a smoking gun
Ironically the technology is out there in the form of data logging used in the racing vehicle world.Which could have at least answered the questions as to the vehicle’s pre accident braking performance v driver brake inputs and which gear it was in during the decent v engine speed and road speed regards same and individual brake temperatures at all points in the journey,if made mandatory.Just like the aircraft industry.
Agree with what Kr79 said, another tinpot tipper firm happy to run rejects from Truck Trader, hauling for much bigger firms for much smaller rates. Just the same around here, firms buy bargain bin clapped out tippers, stick a few silly lights and badges on, open up a facebook page and away they go…On £400/ day rates.
Carryfast:
Own Account Driver:
You read the prosecution case, prior to cross examination. To be honest, the investigation was poor, lacked rigour, hadn’t really found a smoking gunIronically the technology is out there in the form of data logging used in the racing vehicle world.Which could have at least answered the questions as to the vehicle’s pre accident braking performance v driver brake inputs and which gear it was in during the decent v engine speed and road speed regards same and individual brake temperatures at all points in the journey,if made mandatory.Just like the aircraft industry.
What is it like to live on planet Carryfast?
Muckaway:
Agree with what Kr79 said, another tinpot tipper firm happy to run rejects from Truck Trader, hauling for much bigger firms for much smaller rates. Just the same around here, firms buy bargain bin clapped out tippers, stick a few silly lights and badges on, open up a facebook page and away they go…On £400/ day rates.
Except they found no safety critical defects on the other five trucks on a surprise yard visit the next day, not even a tyre defect. I would also presume they were green light on OCRS or I would have thought it would have been mentioned by the prosecution otherwise.
Muckaway:
Agree with what Kr79 said, another tinpot tipper firm happy to run rejects from Truck Trader, hauling for much bigger firms for much smaller rates. Just the same around here, firms buy bargain bin clapped out tippers, stick a few silly lights and badges on, open up a facebook page and away they go…On £400/ day rates.
Quite possibly.In which case it shouldn’t be difficult to prove clapped out brakes having caused the crash beyond reasonable doubt.Which the prosecution doesn’t seem to have done so far.IE how difficult can it be to show physical evidence of the few supposedly working catastrophically cooked brakes to the point of smoking ( a lot more than 250 C ).
Or rule out any possibility of an ABS fault being the cause of that inbalance.Including an explanation as to how the DVSA view such a failure as safe enough to continue a journey but dangerous enough to use as evidence of dangerous driving.
While all the more reason to at least make sure that it’s in a low enough gear and which will hopefully blow the motor up as proof,if it does run away down a hill in that case.Oh wait for some reason the investigation didn’t even seem to think it was important to establish what gear it was actually in at that point for some reason.Just as it didn’t seem to make any connections in the possible importance to the case of the tacho trace showing the vehicle decelerating from 43 mph to 4 mph at the junction approach.Or 25 mph to 20 mph at the start of the decent.
Carryfast is from the planet KPAX, he is in fact due to return home in the year of 2021 at 15.47 , if you see a bright light, that is CF on his way .
If the fitter is cute when it comes for him to give evidence he will be mentioning the old common practice of dealing with a lorry which just fails to make the required brake readings but which is known to be OK . Take the lorry for a blast up the road and give the brakes a caning. Come back in with the linings not far off smoking and hey presto a dramatic improvement. A fairly normal problem for vehicles which very rarely carry their plated weight. That should get the jury wondering.
cav551:
If the fitter is cute when it comes for him to give evidence he will be mentioning the old common practice of dealing with a lorry which just fails to make the required brake readings but which is known to be OK . Take the lorry for a blast up the road and give the brakes a caning. Come back in with the linings not far off smoking and hey presto a dramatic improvement. A fairly normal problem for vehicles which very rarely carry their plated weight. That should get the jury wondering.
How does that work when drums expand enough to cause loss of brake adjustment issues well below that of smoking temps.
While it would probably be better for the defence to ask the question as to the time and distance shown on the tacho to decelerate from 43 mph to 4 mph and whether that would be possible with just 34% braking performance.
Carryfast I think you are getting carried away. The truck was a 4 series Scania which if I remember correctly had drums all round and a more basic abs system than current models with ebs etc.
There’s no way a abs fault caused the brakes to fail like they are alleged to have.
Anyone who has any experience of driving tippers or any kind of trucks in and out of quarry’s and landfill sites will have had an abs fault and earning light come on.
99% of the time it’s either a wheel sensor pulled off or damaged by debris it’s picked up or water ingress from m going through a wheel wash or having wheels steam cleaned.
It certainly doesn’t stop brakes working.