I was just wondering due to recent events if the trainers on here are teaching this Gears to go, Brakes to slow method of driving large vehicles I’ve heard about.
Or are you teaching the more correct method of Gears to go, Gears to Slow.
Obviously with today’s automatic vehicles using the exhaust brake will trigger the gears to slow the vehicle and allow combined engine and brake speed reduction for maximum efficiency.
Course I’m not referring to emergency situations when one stamps on the brake pedal or tries their hand at a bit of emergency cadence braking and pukkers up their ringpeice praying to stop.
Just a general road craft situation.
Dipper_Dave:
I was just wondering due to recent events if the trainers on here are teaching this Gears to go, Brakes to slow method of driving large vehicles I’ve heard about.
Or are you teaching the more correct method of Gears to go, Gears to Slow.
Obviously with today’s automatic vehicles using the exhaust brake will trigger the gears to slow the vehicle and allow combined engine and brake speed reduction for maximum efficiency.
Course I’m not referring to emergency situations when one stamps on the brake pedal or tries their hand at a bit of emergency cadence braking and pukkers up their ringpeice praying to stop.
Just a general road craft situation.
Any takers ■■
Still gears to go and brakes to slow for many reasons
What reasons are they Rog, when surely to reduce the speed of large vehicle in general driving conditions with good forward planning the brakes aren’t the first things to be used.
I must stress I’m not referring to an emergency all bets are off moment.
Whenever I drove a manual it was always the brakes to slow, coming down the gears as the engine dictated. That being said, I do very much find myself letting off the gas completely when seeing traffic slowing in front of me like at traffic lights but driving an auto the box gears down gears as and when it thinks its necessary. I suppose it comes down to actual road skill and the ability to read and predicte what the traffic is going to do.
Driving with my sister who has not long passed her car test is a terrifying experience. I’m looking maybe 10-15 cars in front, she is only concentrating and reacted to what the car in front is doing.
Dipper_Dave:
What reasons are they Rog, when surely to reduce the speed of large vehicle in general driving conditions with good forward planning the brakes aren’t the first things to be used.
I must stress I’m not referring to an emergency all bets are off moment.
Modern braking systems are designed to be used to slow the vehicle - providing the vehicle is maintained correctly
Slowing using brakes causes less wear on other components so its just the cheaper pads which need replacing
Fuel efficiency is kept lower when brakes are used instead of gears
Both hands can be kept on the wheel whilst slowing so it make control better
This refers to normal driving conditions
Example - 44 tonner manual doing 56 on a dual in top gear approaching a roundabout where it almost has to stop = stay in top gear then brake and dip clutch only enough to prevent stalling then when clear to proceed select appropriate gear and go
Thanks Rog, but surely engine braking doesn’t use any more fuel, wear on other components maybe.
Also that’s ideal world stuff that doesn’t prepare new drivers for reality.
Both hands on the wheel is still possible as the exhaust brake is on some vehicles accessible with a finger tip whilst although putting a manual in the mix neccesitates one handed driving.
Now my method of bringing a 44 tonne manual truck to a roundabout is different.
If clear I would be reducing speed by exhaust brake and block downshifting as well as footbrake for the last bit and at the moment I would be at the roundabout I would be in the correctish gear to proceed or if needed slow right down and quickly change down to a starting gear, I.e.2nd. Then proceed, ideally not having come to a complete stop unless traffic dictated you had to.
In an auto it would be lift off early use exhaust brake and let the truck downshift itself till the last bit where foot brake is needed then arrive at roundabout in a gear close to the one needed for thrusting away.
Obviously some autos are better than others and Merc Actros drivers may need to apologise to oncoming traffic as their auto box fumbles around for the correct gear.
I’ve found its always the cheapest components that cause the most problems when they fail, save your brakes and they will save you.
Is there any examples of correct hill decent procedure for trainees, I know it’s not part of the test (or wasn’t when I did it) but surely speed reduction by gears and brakes is essential teaching.
Every time a gear is changed it using fuel which is why the modern autos are now being made to mimic manuals - the autos stay in the current gear whilst slowing then go direct to the appropriate gear when the accelerator is next used
Still today on steep hills there are signs to ‘select low gear’, and although not as critical as it once was and omg was it critical and the term ‘brake fade’ is not common place, I believe the physics of traction vs speed retardation haven’t changed and the ability to understand how to reduce speed by balancing gears, secondary retardation like exhaust brakes and critically brakes themselves is a skill every new driver needs to be taught or at least theoretically presented with.
Course I’d be lying if I’d never had moments when I’ve over cooked the brakes a little and had to rely on more engine braking than I was comfortable with.
I did state - normal driving conditions - not steep hills etc where alternative methods are needed
Over the years I have had many drivers of cars and trucks who I have converted to this method and all have been surprised at how easy, efficient and effective it is as well as making less things for the driver to do
This method has been proven by those who have more expertise than me so - it works
ROG:
Every time a gear is changed it using fuel which is why the modern autos are now being made to mimic manuals - the autos stay in the current gear whilst slowing then go direct to the appropriate gear when the accelerator is next used
I agree but it’s minuscule fuel consumption on a downshift, even before synchronized boxes blipping the throttle was needed. In my experience autoboxes under full exhaust retardation selection will downshift themselves automatically to ensure maximum retardation and mimic the correct method to safely reduce speed when balanced with footbrake in general road conditions.
I do agree that for day to day plodding alone the footbrake usually does the job for most.
Even the best auto doesn’t know the grip available so in more extreme situations combined gears to slow and driver braking is needed to avoid loss of traction.
Relying on brakes alone is verging on bad practice.
Thinks that’s where I get frustrated a little, training drivers for normal conditions using a method of speed reduction that has no place in extreme conditions leaves them at risk.
I’ll happily plod along all day just using the footbrake but it feels wrong so therefore must be wrong. In my opinion
Even in me car I downshift to avoid unnecessary braking, right gear at the right time gives faster smoother progress.
Also (sorry to waffle on with no innuendo) but how many threads do we get on here with new trainees failing their test due to a roundabout situation.
We all know roundabouts on tests have a luck element but to make your own luck surely it’s better to be in a low enough gear on approach and full concentration on oncoming traffic to get on it quick enough rather than faffing with a gear selection at the last second.
Dipper_Dave:
Also (sorry to waffle on with no innuendo) but how many threads do we get on here with new trainees failing their test due to a roundabout situation.
We all know roundabouts on tests have a luck element but to make your own luck surely it’s better to be in a low enough gear on approach and full concentration on oncoming traffic to get on it quick enough rather than faffing with a gear selection at the last second.
That is what they call a - covering gear - it is where the truck is slowed by the brakes alone to about 20mph a little before the roundabout is reached then a lower gear is selected to drive up to the roundabout in
Once the roundabout is reached it may require another lower gear change
Driving in high gear - slow using brakes to 20 then select gear to continue driving at 20 in = brakes to slow and gears to go
THEN if necessary
slow again using brakes then select lower gear to go = brakes to slow and gears to go
Under normal driving conditions it is totally unnecessary to go down through the gears and any driver who says or feels differently is not driving as well as they could do = that is fact
Even in your example above changing to a lower gear to continue at 20mph would slow the vehicle with increased engine revs.
It’s also backwards in that your changing gear if needed when if you where in the correct gear to start with you’d be off round the roundabout quicker.
I see what you mean though but can’t logically see the benefit in late gear changes, progress is better if your in the right gear at the right time for the speed your moving.
I will agree that unneccesary gear changes are pointless unless conditions dictate otherwise, however changing gear to reduce brake wear and having power at hand is a fundamental concept when driving heavy vehicles. Even new vehicles for those lucky to land on one.
If drivers are just being taught for normal conditions why bother with the emergency stop (yes I’m being silly), some training should be given in reducing speed without just relying purely on the brakes.
Fuel economy is good but it’s not my primary concern when driving HGV’s.
Safe progress above all else.
One thing I do on roundabouts with a high speed approach, it may not be right I might fail a test for it so noobs it’s just for info.
I’ll lift off the accelerator early, use the exhaust brake to start with, starting with setting one (the weakest setting, opening a window will give the same effect), now we are getting closer and more speed is needed to be taken off so I go to setting two, the auto truck will start downshifting a little at this point to assist.
Now I apply the foot brake a little (OMG yes I use the brakes), this warns traffic I’m slowing and warms the brakes a bit for the final brake, I would also be aware now of any unlikely brake issues.
Now I lift off the brakes for a second or two to continue my glide in to the roundabout.
Now I apply brakes again slightly harder but also use full engine retardation, auto box will blockshift down.
Final few feet exhaust brake off, truck is in a good gear and I’m on footbrake alone, options to stop or proceed at maximum efficiency.
That’s just how I try and do it, sometimes it’s just footbrake if I cockup or someone cuts in, any of thousands of scenarios can cause my style to change instantly but I’m safe in the knowledge fiddling for a gear has already been taken care of.
Covering gear my arse
Taking an 8 gear manual the first lower gear would usually be gear 5 at 20mph so no high revs
The second lower gear if needed would be perhaps gear 4 or 3 at about 5 to 10 mph
If I drive a DAF it actually compliments me for saving the service brakes by predicting road conditions and using other methods to slow. That will include preferring the exhaust brake and its down-shifting through gears to slow the vehicle.
If the DAF computer thinks it is a good thing, who am I - a mere human - to disagree?
ORC:
If I drive a DAF it actually compliments me for saving the service brakes by predicting road conditions and using other methods to slow. That will include preferring the exhaust brake and its down-shifting through gears to slow the vehicle.
If the DAF computer thinks it is a good thing, who am I - a mere human - to disagree?
I too drive a daf…But we also have microlise in the trucks…I am struggling to get a good score on the microlise system though due to green band driving…As i have been using the exhaust brake for the most part of my braking…Of course the built in daf system compliments you on saving brake wear…But at the expense of taking the rev counter out of the green…So i’m now using the service brakes 99% of the time…
ORC:
If I drive a DAF it actually compliments me for saving the service brakes by predicting road conditions and using other methods to slow. That will include preferring the exhaust brake and its down-shifting through gears to slow the vehicle.
If the DAF computer thinks it is a good thing, who am I - a mere human - to disagree?
I too drive a daf…But we also have microlise in the trucks…I am struggling to get a good score on the microlise system though due to green band driving…As i have been using the exhaust brake for the most part of my braking…Of course the built in daf system compliments you on saving brake wear…But at the expense of taking the rev counter out of the green…So i’m now using the service brakes 99% of the time…
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Your company should take the green band driving off in that case because you shouldn’t get penalised for doing it properly, my old company used the microlise system and eventually they took the green band driving off the list .
