Carryfast:
But still much better than a fire on board an aircraft and the cabin crew saying sorry we’ve tried the extinguishers are all used up and it’s still burning.
Yes, I’m sure if I was on the Be Ready with the helicopter unable to winch me off because of the conditions, my boots melting to the deck and having the choice of jump into freezing choppy water and grab a lifering or burn to death I would be thinking “hey, could always be worse, I could be on a plane.”
Bore off, bawjaws.
Biased pro aviation doesn’t like the truth.
Yeah right go by plane instead much better to fry in your plane seat with no where to go and no way out,than freeze in the water with a chance that the chopper or a lifeboat might still just get you out in time.
WTF are you on about, you turps sniffing lunatic?
Have you ever been on a boat in serious weather? Do you have the slightest clue how quickly you will die in open sea, especially in the middle of winter in a force 8, in the dead of night, like my example?
A layman like me struggles with the idea that you can burn on a boat surrounded by water, or drown when there was or should have been enough liferafts on board.
Unlike an air disaster or other type of disaster, on the sea you normally have the gift of time, there should be enough time (and water) to put the fire out or escape.
It seems like when it all goes ■■■■ up, it’s due to a safety system not working and THEN other issues like human error or raft launching snags that make a preventable situation turn fatal.
I’m going to guess that in the next 20 years sea safety is going to improve massively, and drowning off a boat (excluding suicide) will become almost unheard of. It’s a lot easier to fix than road safety IMO.
Carryfast:
But still much better than a fire on board an aircraft and the cabin crew saying sorry we’ve tried the extinguishers are all used up and it’s still burning.
Yes, I’m sure if I was on the Be Ready with the helicopter unable to winch me off because of the conditions, my boots melting to the deck and having the choice of jump into freezing choppy water and grab a lifering or burn to death I would be thinking “hey, could always be worse, I could be on a plane.”
Bore off, bawjaws.
Biased pro aviation doesn’t like the truth.
Yeah right go by plane instead much better to fry in your plane seat with no where to go and no way out,than freeze in the water with a chance that the chopper or a lifeboat might still just get you out in time.
WTF are you on about, you turps sniffing lunatic?
Have you ever been on a boat in serious weather? Do you have the slightest clue how quickly you will die in open sea, especially in the middle of winter in a force 8, in the dead of night, like my example?
Crackpot.
Yep middle of the Atlantic on a good night with a 35 foot swell the alarms go off.You’d rather stay with the ship and go down with it or burn with it because you’re too scared to take your chances in the water if need be for any reason.You do know that’s actually what the life jacket is for and I’ve not heard of any of the major cruise lines removing all life jackets on that basis.While the water ain’t exactly warm mid Atlantic in early Summer.
While yes you’ve also made it clear that you’d have no fears of a slow lingering possibly agonising death in a mid flight aircraft cabin fire in preference to the fear of freezing to death in the sea.Even less reason to bother with the pre flight ditching instruction in that case.
Seems to be only one crackpot here and it ain’t me.
SJB:
A layman like me struggles with the idea that you can burn on a boat surrounded by water, or drown when there was or should have been enough liferafts on board.
Unlike an air disaster or other type of disaster, on the sea you normally have the gift of time, there should be enough time (and water) to put the fire out or escape.
Except it isn’t as easy as that.Suggest you check out what actually sank the Boccaccio or for that matter the Normandie in New York harbour.Here’s a clue it wasn’t the fire in either case.Which is also where the issue of below decks muster stations falls down.IE a capsizing ship ain’t the same thing as a sinking ship at which point the gift of time is more or less a myth.
The difference being that in the case of an uncontrollable mid voyage ship fire you at least have a chance.Unlike an uncontrollable mid flight air craft cabin fire.Bearing in mind that even the Boccaccio had a considerable number of survivors numbering in the hundreds.
Which leaves the question why the double standards of the ( irrational ) fear of ship disasters v aircraft ?.
You do know that you have a far greater chance of dying in your car on the way to the airport or dock than after you leave.
in fact, you are more likely to die from choking on food (1 in 2½thousand) than as a passenger on an aeroplane (1 in 188 thousand) Heart disease, cancer and suicide are all up in the sub 1 in 100 categories.
Of course, it’s all meaningless as we will all die of something.
Santa:
You do know that you have a far greater chance of dying in your car on the way to the airport or dock than after you leave.
in fact, you are more likely to die from choking on food (1 in 2½thousand) than as a passenger on an aeroplane (1 in 188 thousand) Heart disease, cancer and suicide are all up in the sub 1 in 100 categories.
Those statistics are massively skewed in favour of air travel.Just like the fear of abandoning a burning/sinking ship v sitting in a burning/crashing aircraft with no way of escape.
On that note Carryfast , please list your variables to explain how the pilots of the doomed Swiss Air flight 111 managed to dive the aircraft in to the sea ?
If you read the timeline of the events , it is clear that they had no way of controlling it , as the fire had caused the systems to fail , no way to pitch , roll or yaw .
Six minutes before the crash , the power for the black box fails , so unable to record the last minutes of the cockpit voice recorder .
The cockpit was full of smoke . And it was upside down , when it crashed ,are you are thinking of a controlled water landing ?
Do you mean diving it to put out the fire ?
As you know , there are many miles of wiring that run through the aircraft , then hydraulic pipes , cables , the list goes on .
Maybe the pilots were unconscious from the smoke.
Santa:
You do know that you have a far greater chance of dying in your car on the way to the airport or dock than after you leave.
in fact, you are more likely to die from choking on food (1 in 2½thousand) than as a passenger on an aeroplane (1 in 188 thousand) Heart disease, cancer and suicide are all up in the sub 1 in 100 categories.
Of course, it’s all meaningless as we will all die of something.
All true.
Risk versus Perception of Risk.
.
The New York citizens who won’t come to London because of risk of terrorism.
People who travel by car, but not by commercial airways.
toby1234abc:
On that note Carryfast , please list your variables to explain how the pilots of the doomed Swiss Air flight 111 managed to dive the aircraft in to the sea ?
If you read the timeline of the events , it is clear that they had no way of controlling it , as the fire had caused the systems to fail , no way to pitch , roll or yaw .
Six minutes before the crash , the power for the black box fails , so unable to record the last minutes of the cockpit voice recorder .
The cockpit was full of smoke . And it was upside down , when it crashed ,are you are thinking of a controlled water landing ?
Do you mean diving it to put out the fire ?
As you know , there are many miles of wiring that run through the aircraft , then hydraulic pipes , cables , the list goes on .
Maybe the pilots were unconscious from the smoke.
A plane doesn’t ‘fall’ at over 300 mph especially from what I think was its height.You can control let alone put a plane into a power dive with nothing more than control of the engines as Sioux City showed.I did say it’s only my bet not absolute fact.
Carryfast:
Except it isn’t as easy as that.Suggest you check out what actually sank the Boccaccio
That’s actually a perfect example of what I was getting at, nobody should have died there, they had hours to sort that problem out but a combination of avoidable events meant people died.
Has anybody mentioned the Estonia disaster yet?
My other half remembers this as at the time she was waiting for the ferry to come into Helsinki that did the rescue of the survivors and even to this day remembers the survivors walking of the Europa…
She’s a Finn btw and that’s left an ever lasting memory on her…
Carryfast:
Except it isn’t as easy as that.Suggest you check out what actually sank the Boccaccio
That’s actually a perfect example of what I was getting at, nobody should have died there, they had hours to sort that problem out but a combination of avoidable events meant people died.
All foreseeable with the type of scenario which current regs could create and your own reference ‘how does a ship burn and sink when it’s surrounded by a limitless supply of water’.The ship is on fire we are trying to control it passengers must go to muster station/s and await further instructions.Sprinklers aren’t going to touch the fire in question being too fierce so loads of water is pumped on board effectively flooding the burning area.Ship then relatively suddenly capsizes under the weight of all the water being pumped on board to fight the fire.
As opposed to muster stations being on deck at the intended potential evacuation point/s.Master is informed that the fire is out of control and/or it’s taking too much water to fight the fire for the ship to remain stable and therefore orders an immediate abandon ship order.IE it’s easy to understand the potential conflict created by rigidly adhering to usual mustering plans in that specific type of emergency.Let alone also possibly having to return to a cabin to retrieve a life jacket.Bearing in mind that according to news reports many/most if not all the survivors took their chances in the water,possibly having ignored muster orders and contrary to the accepted wisdom here were fished out despite the totally chaotic rescue operation.
However as I said still a much better chance than those on Swiss Air 111 had though regardless and actually maybe ironically in that case having your life jacket available in your cabin,without needing to have it issued by a crew member at the muster stations,could actually be an advantage.
Senior Flying Instructor Carryfast quotes MPH , but in aviation Knots are used . So in your variables and on this note , please tell us the conversion rate from 300 MPH to Knots .
toby1234abc:
Senior Flying Instructor Carryfast quotes MPH , but in aviation Knots are used . So in your variables and on this note , please tell us the conversion rate from 300 MPH to Knots .
345 mph, (300 x 1.15) and no I didn’t need to Google it … (edit … navel architect as well cos he knows all about ships too)
toby1234abc:
Senior Flying Instructor Carryfast quotes MPH , but in aviation Knots are used . So in your variables and on this note , please tell us the conversion rate from 300 MPH to Knots .
345 mph, (300 x 1.15) and no I didn’t need to Google it … (edit … navel architect as well cos he knows all about ships too)
Let’s just say that co pilot CF ain’t going to listen to Captain Toby or flight engineer Raymondo when they say we can’t get the fire out so let’s just all sit here and burn to death because the thing will be well alight before we reach an emergency landing and the flight controls don’t seem to be working anyway.
I’m going to throttle back the port or starboard engine to idle and cut the power on the opposite side a just a bit then let the nose and the respective wing fall until we’ve got a vertical bank angle and we’re in a dive then I’m going to throttle up all engines to full power.Job done.This won’t take long and we won’t feel a thing.But there will be a lot of wreckage and it won’t be easy to make any conclusions from what’s left of the thing after it hits the water.
As for hitting the water at 300 knts or 345 mph the fact is a plane doesn’t free fall from a stall at that speed regardless.
As for ships I did at least know and remember where my life jacket is if I need it depending on crossing and again I’m not going to stay and burn to death or go down with the ship because I’m too scared to take my chances in the water.While freezing to death is better than frying or drowning anyway so what’s to lose.
(edit … navel architect as well cos he knows all about ships too)