That single paragraph ^^^^^ sums the whole sorry mess up quite succinctly. We (the electorate) are sick to death of career politicians telling us how we should think and feel and patronising us like errant schoolchildren when we don’t.
Just today I heard some Labour twonk on the radio talking about their European election trouncing and stating that they must learn to listen to what the electorate are saying and if that means giving them a second referendum then so be it! I wanted to scream “nooooooooo you complete helmet, that sort of we know best thinking is exactly the sort of thing that has led to our complete and utter contempt for you”
I think where it all went wrong is that we the British believed in democracy. We sat and watched as the various treaties were signed over decades by politicians who reassured us it was OK and they weren’t important enough for a referendum. We watched as countries who were allowed to vote initially voted ‘No’ which was ignored and another country had to keep on voting three times until the answer was ‘yes.’ We heard and read EU politicians who boasted that was how they operated and our own politicians who promised for two decades that they’d give a referendum.
Eventually, we did get a referendum, but only when Cameron thought the country would vote ‘Yes.’
The country voted a majority ‘No’ and despite the promises of ‘Brexit means Brexit’, the wheeling and dealing (PM May) and vote again until you get it right tactics (Jose Barroso) continued. The lies and deceit involved in the EU are typical of every authoritarian system that ever existed. It’s only now that millions realize the EU is in fact a political elite power grab and why the 2016 referendum has been ignored by the very political class that dragged us into it. Brexit is more than a referendum of in or out, it’s also a referendum to leave something the people didn’t vote for in the first place.
And so the elite politicians got their just deserts recently as the main two parties were practically wiped out in the European elections. Meanwhile the remainers don’t even realize that the European elections produced a massive protest vote and think it was a call for remain. We need a second referendum because the political elite remainers refuse to understand what Brexit means? It’s because they didn’t listen to the people that caused their parties to collapse.
I reserve special contempt for the so-called socialist remainers who think trying to remove Britain from the EU is some kind of elitist political plot. Who do you think runs the EU, they are the corrupt political elite! You’ve got to laugh though, would politics have descended to this even thirty years ago? It just shows what damage can be done to people’s minds in a short space of time.
Vote the Maoster and Grandpa. Removing the remainers one brain cell at a time
Seldom do i have the radio on during the news, however by mistake heard that has been arse Blair gobbing off again today about a second referendum 
, no doubt a dewey eyed leftie reporter was fawning over the sod clinging to every word…puke time.
In some ways i’d like them to force that second (in/out) referendum and kick the can down the road another 2 years, would give Farage time to recruit the next parliament, because the Brexit Party will replace all those currently disgracing the house of commons if they don’t deliver Brexit in Oct…bring it on, neither cons or lab have realised what happened in the recent euro election, they are completely out of touch and will be booted out unceremoniously.
I’d also like to see the original referendum confirmed just to rub it in, but there’s a very great danger that if the result for whatever reason is remain, there will never be another referendum and the UK will be in the EU until it collapses and we go down with it. We only get one go at this and the last one was pretty close.
I was listening to Junker the other day and he said he regrets not getting involved in the first referendum. If the EU got involved in a referendum you could expect all sorts of things to happen to get the result they want and it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve changed the outcome of referendums.
I think Farage would make a good PM and especially now when you look at the both the anger at what’s happened over Brexit and available mainstream competition. I think this is now so serious that a clause in a new MPs oath of allegiance should be included to prevent them from transferring their allegiance to a foreign power.
Juddian:
In some ways i’d like them to force that second (in/out) referendum.
Ok, but why even think of giving them their own way by having their second referendum, the decision has been made on THEIR terms, !
The terms that were set out by them, because they were so bloody arrogant the last thing they predicted was an ‘‘Out’’ result.
I would not trust any of the ■■■■■ as far as I could ■■■■ over a wall, I would even strongly suspect that any second referendum would be rigged towards a remain vote, and then justified for the reasons of their own distorted and arrogant view of it… ‘‘Being in the national interest’’.
Not to be trusted any of em, they are all a shower of ■■■■. 
@Grandpa.
I “went quiet about (the UK) having to pay extra tax”?
If a country makes more than it expected to, some extra goes into the pot.
Where’s the problem?
If the UK made less money than expected we would have paid less.
If a person increases their wages shouldn’t some of that be taken in taxes?
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@ Grandpa.
USA trade?
So far we have signed trade deals with
Andean Countries
Norway+Iceland
Caribbean Countries
Pacific Countries
Israel
Palestine
Faroe Islands
Chile
And as you say Switzerland.
Not quite the promised
“Queue of countries” or “easiest negotiations in history” we were promised by leavers.
Let alone the imaginary £350 million.
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Grandpa:
muckles:
Grandpa:
No Franglais. Brexit was about a clean break, no deals, which both PMs Cameron and May agreed to. The deals came from PM May as she went back on her word and tried to negotiate a way out.
If so why was there so much talk of they want us more than we need them?, and there was talk of trade deals by the leave campaign, as well as the remain campaign mocking us being able to get a deal with the EU agreed by the remaining 27 countries.
Britain is a net contributor and also a net importer into the UK, we buy more from Europe than we sell. That’s why if we left it would hurt Europe more than it would us. Hence the suggested figure of £39bn for what has been termed an EU ‘divorce bill.’
Brexit means we can do business with the EU on our own terms, or go elsewhere without the permission of another 27 countries. We can continue trade after Brexit if the EU want, but it shouldn’t be part of an exit deal and neither should we pay the EU anything for leaving.
There was loads from the leave campaign about EU trade deals, because they were rebutting the remain campaigners who said the EU wouldn’t do a deal with us, so Brexit was not about a total break from the EU, and dealing on our own terms, it doesn’t work like that, deals are a compromise that all parties hope to gain something from.
Even the so called no deal scenario has various deals attached such as, UK truck allowed to continue to operate in the EU provided there is a reciprocal arrangement for EU truck in the UK.
Stream of consciousness warning!!!
I’m not a political animal, in fact I’m probably best described as apolitical. To paraphrase Juddian (badly) I believe that most politicians are different cheeks of the same arse. I suspect that fear of a “real” job guided most of them into politics.
I am however fiercely patriotic in as much as I love Britain warts and all. I don’t care about immigration to be frank, I don’t subscribe to the view that it’s all Jonny foreigners fault, indeed we have enough homegrown indigenous shipheads who deserve far more attention than an asylum seeker who only wants to provide for his family. I don’t believe that we should close our borders and insulate ourselves from the outside world as that would imo be disastrous, in fact I’m kinda fond of the previous 1990 years prior to the EU which saw us doing ok in the grand scheme of things.
To me Brexit was only ever about one thing and one thing only; the right to self determination. I don’t believe we have the right to meddle in the affairs of Germans, Belgians, French et al, and I certainly do not believe that a foreign nation has the right to meddle in the affairs of Great Britain either.
I have a theory regarding Brexit which has no basis in any political fact and may quite possibly be rubbish, but it’s my theory anyway; Leaving the EU was never gonna be a smooth ride for one simple reason, other disillusioned countries are watching closely! If we simply walked away seamlessly you can bet your last Euro that they’d be next, therefore the unelected unaccountables will put absolutely any hurdle possible in our way as some kind of stark lesson to the uppity British that it was indeed them and their new order who ruled the roost.
the maoster:
Stream of consciousness warning!!!
I’m not a political animal, in fact I’m probably best described as apolitical. To paraphrase Juddian (badly) I believe that most politicians are different cheeks of the same arse. I suspect that fear of a “real” job guided most of them into politics.
I am however fiercely patriotic in as much as I love Britain warts and all. I don’t care about immigration to be frank, I don’t subscribe to the view that it’s all Jonny foreigners fault, indeed we have enough homegrown indigenous shipheads who deserve far more attention than an asylum seeker who only wants to provide for his family. I don’t believe that we should close our borders and insulate ourselves from the outside world as that would imo be disastrous, in fact I’m kinda fond of the previous 1990 years prior to the EU which saw us doing ok in the grand scheme of things.
To me Brexit was only ever about one thing and one thing only; the right to self determination. I don’t believe we have the right to meddle in the affairs of Germans, Belgians, French et al, and I certainly do not believe that a foreign nation has the right to meddle in the affairs of Great Britain either.
I have a theory regarding Brexit which has no basis in any political fact and may quite possibly be rubbish, but it’s my theory anyway; Leaving the EU was never gonna be a smooth ride for one simple reason, other disillusioned countries are watching closely! If we simply walked away seamlessly you can bet your last Euro that they’d be next, therefore the unelected unaccountables will put absolutely any hurdle possible in our way as some kind of stark lesson to the uppity British that it was indeed them and their new order who ruled the roost.
Sorry matey …
I’ve some bad news for you…
You ARE a political thinker !
Maybe you are non-partisan and subscribe to no one party, but none the less, you are a political animal.
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the maoster:
I was actually thinking of some of your posts Franglais as I wrote that, without wishing to blow smoke up your ■■■■■■ I admire the way you post and I admire your passion on the whole Brexit thingy. Obviously we are polar opposites on our thinking but any right minded individual would admire anyone who was passionate about their beliefs.
Unfortunately you are wrong on this subject my friend 
I thank you sir, for the undeserved compliments.
But you are addressing political issues here.
I’m not calling you a party politician, of course not!
But I repeat my previous statement: you are a political thinker.
Although I agree that too many, most, of our current crop of MPs are more concerned with party rather than country. Politics shouldn’t be a dirty word, but it’s easy and sad to see why it is.
.
.
PS. I won’t tell R.R. that U wuz finking of me. Promise.
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the maoster:
Grandpa:
You have noticed the huge backlash against the two main political parties in the elections recently who are trying to ignore the Brexit vote? Look on that as revenge by the population for all the years of lies and deceit by a remainer political elite.
That single paragraph ^^^^^ sums the whole sorry mess up quite succinctly. We (the electorate) are sick to death of career politicians telling us how we should think and feel and patronising us like errant schoolchildren when we don’t.
Just today I heard some Labour twonk on the radio talking about their
European election trouncing and stating that they must learn to listen to what the electorate are saying and if that means giving them a second referendum then so be it! I wanted to scream “nooooooooo you complete helmet, that sort of we know best thinking is exactly the sort of thing that has led to our complete and utter contempt for you”
The electorate hasn’t taken revenge against the remainer establishment at all.What’s actually happened is that we’ve got a clear majority having voted for a Remain coalition of Remain parties.Together with an equally clear collapse in the turn out figure compared to the referendum.In which case the real question is what caused that collapse in the turnout figure ?.The biggest gainers here being Remain.While the Leave vote are actually the biggest losers caused by the collapsed turnout figure.Assuming this election was supposed to be all about support for Brexit v Remain.
Some might say that the whole agenda was all about giving credibility to the Remain side.When the best tactic for the Leave side would have been an all out boycott on the basis of why do we need to take part in an EU election.Oh wait we’ve been here before in the form of Farage’s enthusiasm for Cameron’s dodgy referendum based on the premise that it’s ok to vote the nation out of existence and into EU vassalage.The fact is we ain’t leaving the EU unless/until the Head of State says so in which case she’ll have to admit to at least dereliction of duty in 1972 and she isn’t going to do that.More like Charles and Wills are full on Remainers/European Federalists.This isn’t going to have a happy ending.
If we get a “remain” result the coming referendum, we can withdraw article 50 and carry on as we are at the moment (which we know is a system that works) and we can negotiate sensible terms in a measured way rather than the scramble from which we are suffering at the moment.
Optimum:
If we get a “remain” result the coming referendum, we can withdraw article 50 and carry on as we are at the moment (which we know is a system that works) and we can negotiate sensible terms in a measured way rather than the scramble from which we are suffering at the moment.
“Negotiate sensible terms”?
Wash your mouth out with soap!
We voted out on promises of a good deal, and if we can’t get that, we’ll accept any ole bollicks just to show 'em who’s boss.
Bring on “No deal” now.
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Franglais:
We voted out on promises of a good deal,
This is what I’ve been saying…We would maybe have got one if negotiations had been done by a pro Brexit contingent.
How can you get a good deal when our so called negotiators are opposed to the situation, and are basically on the same wavelength and side as the EU reps they are pretending to be opposed to.?
I aint a political animal either, but I can see what is going on, it’s so bloody transparent a kid of 5 could.
robroy:
Franglais:
We voted out on promises of a good deal,
This is what I’ve been saying…We would maybe have got one if negotiations had been done by a pro Brexit contingent.
How can you get a good deal when our so called negotiators are opposed to the situation, and are basically on the same wavelength and side as the EU reps they are pretending to be opposed to.?
I aint a political animal either, but I can see what is going on, it’s so bloody transparent a kid of 5 could.
I see what you’re saying, but who was the lead UK negotiator?
Wasn’t it Davies who previously was full of how easy it would all be? Of course he blamed May for tying his hands, but was that truthful?
The promises made by ‘Leave’ were never really credible. Why did so many choose to believe politicians of the likes of Gove Rees-Mogg Johnson and Farage? I can see why they would want to stick two fingers up to Blair, Cameron etc, but to ignore the majority of professional economists? Do so many ignore the many times experts get near the truth, but remember any prat falls?
We don’t see headlines about predictions but do when experts ■■■■-up.
If you want medical advise would you ask a politician or a Doctor? Why so different with macro economics?
Politicians with second class degrees in history or English may be good communicators and be persuasive but are not always even vaguely numerate. Experts are not always right, but if most come down on one side of an argument and the population sides with a few other economists and establishment merchantbankers (pun intended[emoji5]) surely you gotta wonder why?
.
Why dismiss expert’s warnings of likely problems, but believe the predictions of arts graduates?
.
Remain, had a poor campaign and Leave played well…few fouls maybe…But…
A good salesman will sell an old dog quicker than you or I could sell a gem.
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Optimum:
If we get a “remain” result the coming referendum, we can withdraw article 50 and carry on as we are at the moment (which we know is a system that works) and we can negotiate sensible terms in a measured way rather than the scramble from which we are suffering at the moment.
Isn’t that what Cameron tried to do in 2012? and look what that led to, the EU doesn’t do negotiations if the end result is a watering down of any of their treaties or a reduction in their power
Franglais:
Wasn’t it Davies who previously was full of how easy it would all be? Of course he blamed May for tying his hands, but was that truthful?
The promises made by ‘Leave’ were never really credible.
Are you seriously suggesting that May wasn’t always in overall control of the process just as Cameron intended.You’re avin a larf.
As for the promises made by ‘‘Leave’’.They are a lot more credible than your status quo.Of more rule by Juncker etc.More trying to sustain an unsustainable trade deficit.More austerity at home to pay for EU spending budgets elsewhere within your Federal zb pile.Bearing in mind that we don’t have to stay with Con policies when we return to having democratic control over our own government.
Mazzer2:
Optimum:
If we get a “remain” result the coming referendum, we can withdraw article 50 and carry on as we are at the moment (which we know is a system that works) and we can negotiate sensible terms in a measured way rather than the scramble from which we are suffering at the moment.
Isn’t that what Cameron tried to do in 2012? and look what that led to, the EU doesn’t do negotiations if the end result is a watering down of any of their treaties or a reduction in their power
So the EU doesn’t negotiate weakly, and doesn’t give away cheaply any advantage it’s members may have?
Well, sounds like they’re doing a good job for their members then. Why would anyone expect any different?
.
.
Clearly Davies, Redwood, and others did expect otherwise, but it’s difficult to see why?
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