Spardo why are you now singling out Mr Dunbar for his views you forget you gave me a rollicking for that when I did it to you, no one on here is stopping you putting in your 5 euro’s worth are they. At the end of the day we had a democratic vote to leave and that is what should happen and the sooner the better without any hindrance from any body, LB is right lets just get on with it and we shall see who was right, no deal and no penalties and watch the rest of the EU squirm without us, Buzzer.
Buzzer:
Spardo why are you now singling out Mr Dunbar for his views you forget you gave me a rollicking for that when I did it to you, no one on here is stopping you putting in your 5 euro’s worth are they. At the end of the day we had a democratic vote to leave and that is what should happen and the sooner the better without any hindrance from any body, LB is right lets just get on with it and we shall see who was right, no deal and no penalties and watch the rest of the EU squirm without us, Buzzer.
I don’t doubt all that, but us on this side are not telling you that you shouldn’t be allowed to put your point of view. It is you and now Laurence, who are doing that to us. If you don’t like our message, fair enough, but don’t try to deny us the right that we have, as citizens and members here, to do it.
Somebody much earlier in the thread said how strange it was that all those in here getting so angry are the ones who won the vote, it is us who lost who want to debate it, not join in a slanging match.
I won’t ask what you are all afraid off, because I know, you feel that in the end you will be let down and not get the full Brexit that you voted for, but that is not our fault, and we should not be the target of abuse just because we disagree with you. It’s called democracy, something you are always banging on about, so why are you so upset?
You are a Tory, stated as such. Nothing wrong with that, but if there is a General Election out of all this mess, and there may well be, and Labour get in, will you refrain from making any comment afterwards? Of course not, and why should you? So grant us the same right without all the insults please.
If you don’t know what an insult is and why I singled out Laurence, what do you think this is?
Laurence Dunbar:
So why dont the rsoles that voted to stay just [zb] shut up
Not worthy.
Spardo:
Franglais:
gazzer:
Your humorous analogy is not lost on me Franglais, well written!At risk of upsetting some, so you remember the old saying about
“You can please some people all of the time.
You can please all the people some of the time.
But you can’t please all the people all the time”?Looks like there may be a new line to add:
Brexit looks like displeasing all the people all the time!
It’s either happening when it shouldn’t or is too hard, or too soft, or is too slow, or is. …
Well. No offence meant to any one here as I said.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
You’re flogging a dead horse here Franglais. Sorry and sad to see Laurence Dunbar, whose views I have appreciated and respected over the years, join the ranks of the mob trying to drown out any reasoned arguement.
Why do you try to stop us putting forward our views, could it possibly be that you don’t have any reasoned arguement of your own?
That’s fine however the remoaners have become ever more desperate as March approaches. Instead of reasoned argument we get repeats of the scare stories their ‘experts’ tried to bamboozle us all with back during the campaign, which didn’t work. What angered me and I am sure many others was the way industry tried to ride roughshod over the views of its workers with a message that if you don’t vote how we want then you will be out of a job. ie we know better than you do so be good little boys and do as you are told. Go ■■■■ yourselves. The voters saw through it all and voted for what they wanted and not what they were being told to do. We British don’t like that sort of bullying and tend to react very strongly to it. They got it wrong and blew it. Now they are on their campaign again with ever more attempts to get the answer they want. My local paper’s letters column has been featuring demands from a remoaner for another referendum with a multiple choice choice ballot paper with the options designed to split the leave vote so he gets his heart’s desire. All the time now we get the same scare stories wrapped up in different clothes. We are not going to starve, we are not going to die because there are no drugs, we are not all going to go bankrupt, we won’t all be on the dole. I would like to say we are British, but they problem is that thanks to immigration only about 40% of us are now British, so many see their true first allegance to some other nation particularly those who think they are ‘European’.
We shall overcome, we are British and deep-down proud of it and our History. Twice in the last Century we the British, saved Europe and the Free World, as the far off fields in some foreign land testify. When it really mattered at Ypres in 1914 it was the cooks and bottle washers who held the line, in 1940 it was some 2500 mainly British pilots who stopped the tidal wave. Yes, we are genuinely forever grateful to those brave young men from other nations who somehow managed to get to these shores to join the fight. We have no beef with the people of Europe, we are moved almost to tears to realise that every evening there is a ceremony at the Menin Gate to honour those men from so long ago, and that in so many other small villages local school children take flowers to remote, sometimes individual, graves on anniversaries of the death. Our beef is with the politicians in those countries, who pay lip service when the cameras are about, but daily have forgotten that when all seemed lost it was those awkward stubborn British who said ‘we’re not having this’.
And we aren’t, we are not going to to be ruled or dictated to from Brussels.
Thank you Cav, that is the sort of reasoned debate that we, on the remain side have been trying to have, but so often shouting from the sidelines seems to get in the way.
I agree with much of what you say, perhaps a couple or so points where we might disagree.
I would like to say we are British, but they problem is that thanks to immigration only about 40% of us are now British,
I would like to see your source for that truly unbelievable ‘fact’. Without myself having any statistics to hand I would think the true figure is nearer 90%, and even then the 10% is not all European, but includes, perhaps a majority of Commonwealth origin people, West Indians, Africans and South Asians. Non of whom are going to go away after Brexit.
Twice in the last Century we the British, saved Europe and the Free World, as the far off fields in some foreign land testify.
Perfectly true, but much as I abhor the Yanks and there malign influence in the world today, they did play some part in that salvation, after waiting on the sidelines till they themselves were attacked. Something perhaps that we should have done, as I have expressed elsewhere in this thread.
And we aren’t, we are not going to to be ruled or dictated to from Brussels.
We aren’t now. At the moment Britain is part of a wider community which has its headquarters in Brussels, and in which Britain has a full say, that’s all. No different than the people of Lancashire being ‘ruled or dictated to from London’ .
You have to gather the representatives somewhere, be it Brussels or London, they are just cities. You can’t have them hovering in the ether somewhere.
As to those of us who would like a referendum on the final deal (not a re-run of the original), what’s wrong with that? You have already had 2, because of changed circumstances. Why not a 3rd now the facts have changed again out of all recognition?
At this point no doubt, CF, the champion word twister, will chime in to accuse me of advocating a referendum every 5 years. 
The Yanks and particularly their big business did very nicely thank you maam out of WW2 and Lease Lend. As already stated Europe got away with the financial support provided after WW2, GB had to pay it all back with interest which IIRC took us until 2006 to do. The list of British technical secrets given to the Yanks in return for military hardware is mindblowing, even more so when the financial rewards the Yanks subsequently reaped from that information are taken into account. Yeee Haa. As I said if it hadn’t been for GB there would have been no need for the US to do anything in 1940, it would all have been over. As for Kaiser Bill’s intentions once Paris had fallen following the Old Contemptibles being driven back into the sea if Ypres had fallen, we can only speculate if he was looking for Lebensraum.
The 40% is transposing the situation from some areas to a national picture, wrong maybe but that is how it feels to those who live there, fortunately I don’t but when I visit London in particular I get the same feeling. I don’t hear English spoken. As I mentioned there are many ‘British’ citizens who see themselves only secondly as British ie when it suits them, which is usually financially or if they are in trouble abroad.
Once the Referendum result has been implemented, Brexit has happened and the situation has stabilised in say five years after Total Brexit; not the wishy-washy no real change THEY are trying to con us into; then fair enough have another vote on the issue, but not until then. As has been said so many times this is not Eire or Greece with the surprise Wrong Answer so try again.
We are dictated to from Brussels all the time there is a Court above our own. Fair enough the International Court in the Hague is supreme, but that is not for domestic matters.
cav551:
The Yanks and particularly their big business did very nicely thank you maam out of WW2 and Lease Lend. As already stated Europe got away with the financial support provided after WW2, GB had to pay it all back with interest which IIRC took us until 2006 to do. The list of British technical secrets given to the Yanks in return for military hardware is mindblowing, even more so when the financial rewards the Yanks subsequently reaped from that information are taken into account. Yeee Haa. As I said if it hadn’t been for GB there would have been no need for the US to do anything in 1940, it would all have been over. As for Kaiser Bill’s intentions once Paris had fallen following the Old Contemptibles being driven back into the sea if Ypres had fallen, we can only speculate if he was looking for Lebensraum.The 40% is transposing the situation from some areas to a national picture, wrong maybe but that is how it feels to those who live there, fortunately I don’t but when I visit London in particular I get the same feeling. I don’t hear English spoken. As I mentioned there are many ‘British’ citizens who see themselves only secondly as British ie when it suits them, which is usually financially or if they are in trouble abroad.
Once the Referendum result has been implemented, Brexit has happened and the situation has stabilised in say five years after Total Brexit; not the wishy-washy no real change THEY are trying to con us into; then fair enough have another vote on the issue, but not until then. As has been said so many times this is not Eire or Greece with the surprise Wrong Answer so try again.
We are dictated to from Brussels all the time there is a Court above our own. Fair enough the International Court in the Hague is supreme, but that is not for domestic matters.
I agree wholheartedly with your first paragraph, and have put forward much the same earlier in this thread, and, as you say, it is only speculation that Kaiser Bill or Hitler, would have attacked Britain eventually, but even if they did, Britain would have been more prepared, certainly in the 2nd WW and Dunkirk would not have happened. But, as we both say, speculation.
However:
The 40% is transposing the situation from some areas to a national picture, wrong maybe
is not maybe at all, it is downright wrong not to take the country as a whole into the calculation…
I think it was Eire and Denmark who had 2 votes, rather than Greece, but the point is taken nevertheless. If it was not wrong to have a referendum in 2016, because the situation had drastically changed from the 1st one, then it is not wrong in 2019 to have one because the situation is drastically changed from the 2nd one.
As regards Brussels v London, we will have to agree to differ. I have more than one friend in the north who really resents being governed/dictated to/bullied by London.
Spardo:
Thank you Cav, that is the sort of reasoned debate that we, on the remain side have been trying to have, but so often shouting from the sidelines seems to get in the way.I agree with much of what you say, perhaps a couple or so points where we might disagree.
I would like to say we are British, but they problem is that thanks to immigration only about 40% of us are now British,
I would like to see your source for that truly unbelievable ‘fact’. Without myself having any statistics to hand I would think the true figure is nearer 90%, and even then the 10% is not all European, but includes, perhaps a majority of Commonwealth origin people, West Indians, Africans and South Asians. Non of whom are going to go away after Brexit.
Twice in the last Century we the British, saved Europe and the Free World, as the far off fields in some foreign land testify.
Perfectly true, but much as I abhor the Yanks and there malign influence in the world today, they did play some part in that salvation, after waiting on the sidelines till they themselves were attacked. Something perhaps that we should have done, as I have expressed elsewhere in this thread.
And we aren’t, we are not going to to be ruled or dictated to from Brussels.
We aren’t now. At the moment Britain is part of a wider community which has its headquarters in Brussels, and in which Britain has a full say, that’s all. No different than the people of Lancashire being ‘ruled or dictated to from London’ .
You have to gather the representatives somewhere, be it Brussels or London, they are just cities. You can’t have them hovering in the ether somewhere.
As to those of us who would like a referendum on the final deal (not a re-run of the original), what’s wrong with that? You have already had 2, because of changed circumstances. Why not a 3rd now the facts have changed again out of all recognition?
At this point no doubt, CF, the champion word twister, will chime in to accuse me of advocating a referendum every 5 years.
The only facts that ‘changed beyond all recognition’ were the ones which Heath among others sold to the country in 1973 in the form of a ‘Common Market’ v the the Single European Act and Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.All that combined with us being a net contributor for the privilege of being a net importer are the ‘facts’.
As for the Leave vote which part of the word ‘Leave’ obviously meaning leaving the EU rule over the country and by definition leaving that disadvantageous economic liabilty don’t you understand.Just as it was clearly laid out in the Leave manifesto.While no we know you don’t want a referendum every 5 years you you just want to repeat the exercise until you get the answer you want.All on the basis of it only then being binding and not subject to any further dissent.Also didn’t see anything in cav’s comments which didn’t match my own in that regard.Although the bit I do disagree with him on is the level of the EU Federalist plot that continues to be foisted on the country and which unfortunately can only go right to the top including HM.On that note no Hammond’s sham referendum isn’t going to be enough to get the country out of the EU.It’s doubtful that even a strong UKIP vote in the coming GE would either.
This argument can only get worse much worse and realistically now being a case of whether the army is prepared to put country before Queen and Federation with her having made her position absolutely clear in going rogue together with her parliament in that regard. 
youtube.com/watch?v=M5X3ZB15qiU
As for Britain’s supposed ‘full say’ in the EU only a Confederal Europe with the provision of national opt out and substitution would provide that.Let alone the laughable Soviet inspired politburo and majority foreign federal rubber stamp type system that is the EU Federal government system.
As for the idea that we should have stayed neutral in 1939 that seems to confirm the conspiracy theory that the EU has its roots in the continuation faction of the zb ■■■■ Party.Bearing in mind that the Nazis were also predictably allied with the Soviet Union at that point.Now awaits you telling us that I’ve ‘twisted your words’. 
I’m sick of hearing all the scaremongering from MPs who instead of doing what’s best for the general public are doing whats best for them .It was a democratic vote with a majority wanting to leave but MPs who love to get one over on the opppsition are this time trying to get one over on the majority voters. Why dont MPs have to be qualified why dont they have to spend £1000s on training and retraining like we have to do .We should bring back manufacturing tothis country and become more dependant on ourselves and we should definitely stop immigration now. How can Labour complain about the NHS but still want to allow immigration to continue .Its farcical
ramone:
I’m sick of hearing all the scaremongering from MPs who instead of doing what’s best for the general public are doing whats best for them .
It helps to understand what’s going on if you realise that they are actually doing what they see as being best for ‘their country’.It’s just that they view the EU as ‘their country’ not the small subservient state of Britain.Which is why they call leave voters little Englanders.( The German connotation of Englander being no coincidence in that ). 
ramone:
I’m sick of hearing all the scaremongering from MPs who instead of doing what’s best for the general public are doing whats best for them .It was a democratic vote with a majority wanting to leave but MPs who love to get one over on the opppsition are this time trying to get one over on the majority voters. Why dont MPs have to be qualified why dont they have to spend £1000s on training and retraining like we have to do .We should bring back manufacturing tothis country and become more dependant on ourselves and we should definitely stop immigration now. How can Labour complain about the NHS but still want to allow immigration to continue .Its farcical
Because it is only immigration that keeps the NHS going now. It is struggling to cope as it is, so how will it fare if you stop all immigration? Add to that the possibility of forcibly returning aged and possibly sick citizens who will only add to the burden.
They may not have a vote, they may not immediately become entitled to medical care (though I know of one case where the elderly woman returned to England and recieved immediate health care and also a warden controlled flat), but as citizens they will be entitled to everything very quickly.
Just had a quick look at the Irish, Danish and Greek referendums seeing as how they are often quoted to demonstrate the fickleness of the EU to public opinion.
Yes Greece did have a referendum, but not on membership (unless I have missed another ). It was to accept or reject the EU financial baillout. The newly elected anti EU government campaigned for a no vote, and got it by a large majority. Then ignored it and negotiated an even bigger baillout than that voted down.
The Irish vote was to accept the Lisbon treaty, voted down by a very slim majority, then re-run a year later when a larger majority was in favour. Possibly because in part of better explanation that Irish neutrality and internal issues like abortion would not be affected… Not a referendum on membership.
The Danish one was to accept the Maastricht Treaty. The vote was no but certain opt outs to the treaty were negotiated and confirmed by a 2nd referendum which said yes.
Up to now the UK is the only country to hold a referendum on leaving the EU, although Norway has had 2 to apply or not for entry. Both rejected. The Norwegian driver I once met in a routier near Besancon was bemoaning the fact that he had spent the best part of the day clearing customs nearby. He was very envious of the rest of us round the table who had hardly noticed passing from one country to another.
Today the FA have announced that the premier league may be doomed as European players may not be able to gain entry to play in the UK, this is the latest scare mongering issue and the FA want exemption granted for these players. For me they can go and play for other clubs within Europe and earn just as much money which is at a stupendous levels anyway, they are frightened that it will give home grown talent more chance of playing high level football in this country. We should have restricted the amount of foreign players within one club team a long time ago as at present money buys success, half the teams in the premier league you have difficulty pronouncing there names, Buzzer.
Buzzer:
Today the FA have announced that the premier league may be doomed as European players may not be able to gain entry to play in the UK, this is the latest scare mongering issue and the FA want exemption granted for these players. For me they can go and play for other clubs within Europe and earn just as much money which is at a stupendous levels anyway, they are frightened that it will give home grown talent more chance of playing high level football in this country. We should have restricted the amount of foreign players within one club team a long time ago as at present money buys success, half the teams in the premier league you have difficulty pronouncing there names, Buzzer.
At least that we can agree on. 
I gave up watching football years ago when it all started to go barmy. 
Spardo:
[
I agree wholheartedly with your first paragraph, and have put forward much the same earlier in this thread, and, as you say, it is only speculation that… Hitler, would have attacked Britain eventually, but even if they did, Britain would have been more prepared, certainly in the 2nd WW and Dunkirk would not have happened. But, as we both say, speculation. .
I think you actually meant to put something different unless this was presumptive on Kaiser Bill having attacked Britain in 1914. Dunkirk was before the Battle of Britain so had already happened by the time Hitler’s invasion fleet was being assembled. Having rid Continental Europe of the British Army, Hitler then it seems thought that he might be able to strike a peace deal with Britain, but on August 25th Bomber Command had put paid to that idea with its raid on Berlin, so by the time of his September 4th Auf Rasieren British cities speech his intentions are clear. It is the impracticalities put forward by his Navy and Army leaders and ultimately the losses to his Luftflotte on September 15th which seem to have brought about the realisation two days later that a planned, now autumn invasion, would most likely go wrong.
The following is argued from a slightly different standpoint, but still makes clear what influenced the decision for delay.
Spardo:
The Norwegian driver I once met in a routier near Besancon was bemoaning the fact that he had spent the best part of the day clearing customs nearby. He was very envious of the rest of us round the table who had hardly noticed passing from one country to another.
Doesn’t say much for Norway’s EEA member state status or the definition of goods in free circulation within the EU especially including within Schengen area. Meanwhile the Norway/Sweden border is well known for it’s 1-2 months wait for clearance.As for Swiss France don’t even go there the load will be obsolete and its owner/consignee long retired or gone before it will be allowed to move.
Seriously sounds like yet more remainer bs.
Carryfast:
ramone:
I’m sick of hearing all the scaremongering from MPs who instead of doing what’s best for the general public are doing whats best for them .It helps to understand what’s going on if you realise that they are actually doing what they see as being best for ‘their country’.It’s just that they view the EU as ‘their country’ not the small subservient state of Britain.Which is why they call leave voters little Englanders.( The German connotation of Englander being no coincidence in that ).
I think its called patronising , i cant put on here what it really is. We may pay their wages but we are the little people, they know best. I think it`s time for a total rethink on how MPs perform they should have some sort of qualification other than not being born under wedlock, they dont represent the majority they represent themselves. Just look at the only time ALL MPs agree ,when their ANNUAL pay rise comes around no squabbling on that one . I would sooner have a no deal Brexit than pander to the EU schisters and the pro remain MPs of this country
Spardo:
Because it is only immigration that keeps the NHS going now. It is struggling to cope as it is, so how will it fare if you stop all immigration? Add to that the possibility of forcibly returning aged and possibly sick citizens who will only add to the burden.
Oh wait we’re actually paying more than the cost of any returnable citizens needing NHS treatment in the form of our net contributions bill.
While for every underpaid over worked foreign worker there are lots more immigrant patients looking for treatment within the international health service.Bonus points if they can make it a maternity case meaning automatic right of citizenship for the child and the parents.
No one should be under any illusions that the immigrant workforce in the NHS is mostly about exploitation and Brits wanting the job but not wanting the silly hours obviously being imposed to cut the staffing/employment requirement.Even if they can afford to take the wage.As proven by the amount of Brit health workers emigrating to Canada,Oz and NZ but for ‘some’ reason obviously few if any Australian or Canadians etc wanting to work here.Nor ironically any issues with Canadian or Australian Brit ex pats having to worry about their health care arrangements.So why the big deal concerning Brexit in that regard.
While it’s obvious that we can’t fund the NHS properly while also having to pay off the loans that we have to borrow to pay for our EU contributions and the trade deficit and cover the in work benefits required to top up the wages of under paid workers in our over supplied labour market.Let alone the lose lose of the low tax revenues resulting from it all.
Spardo:
ramone:
I’m sick of hearing all the scaremongering from MPs who instead of doing what’s best for the general public are doing whats best for them .It was a democratic vote with a majority wanting to leave but MPs who love to get one over on the opppsition are this time trying to get one over on the majority voters. Why dont MPs have to be qualified why dont they have to spend £1000s on training and retraining like we have to do .We should bring back manufacturing tothis country and become more dependant on ourselves and we should definitely stop immigration now. How can Labour complain about the NHS but still want to allow immigration to continue .Its farcicalBecause it is only immigration that keeps the NHS going now. It is struggling to cope as it is, so how will it fare if you stop all immigration? Add to that the possibility of forcibly returning aged and possibly sick citizens who will only add to the burden.
They may not have a vote, they may not immediately become entitled to medical care (though I know of one case where the elderly woman returned to England and recieved immediate health care and also a warden controlled flat), but as citizens they will be entitled to everything very quickly.
Im not the sharpest tool in the box , you will know that if youve read any or most of my posts but i cannot get my head around this one. I may be missing something here but if you have mass immigration (which we have had) and these migrants have paid zilch into our system how can this be the only thing that is keeping it going? Drinking ,smoking eating fatty foods and lots of other things have been blamed for putting a strain on the NHS . Over use is whats killing it by people who have paid nothing in. If everyone stopped drinking and smoking this country would be virtually bankrupt with the loss of tax alone not to mention the jobs that would go. Its not under funding by either party it`s over use by freeloaders who have contributed nothing. Anyone who wants to come to this country should have to take out medical inurance until they have paid in to the system for at least 10 years ,the same should go for social security .The EU insist on free movement between member states … out sooner the better 
Well said “ramone” I resemble all your remarks ! As regards Brexit well Geoff Boycott gave a good analysis on Tele to-day saying it is similar to tossing a coin in cricket to see who is first in to bat ! But hang on “I didn’t like the result 'cause I wanted to bat” so can we have best out of three ! “I still don’t like the result” “so can we have best out of five and so on until I get the result I want” !! That MP Chukka Umooner or whatever his name did not like Boycott’s analogy one bit ! Priceless it was to watch ! Cheers Dennis.
cav551:
Spardo:
[
I agree wholheartedly with your first paragraph, and have put forward much the same earlier in this thread, and, as you say, it is only speculation that… Hitler, would have attacked Britain eventually, but even if they did, Britain would have been more prepared, certainly in the 2nd WW and Dunkirk would not have happened. But, as we both say, speculation. .I think you actually meant to put something different unless this was presumptive on Kaiser Bill having attacked Britain in 1914. Dunkirk was before the Battle of Britain so had already happened by the time Hitler’s invasion fleet was being assembled. Having rid Continental Europe of the British Army, Hitler then it seems thought that he might be able to strike a peace deal with Britain, but on August 25th Bomber Command had put paid to that idea with its raid on Berlin, so by the time of his September 4th Auf Rasieren British cities speech his intentions are clear. It is the impracticalities put forward by his Navy and Army leaders and ultimately the losses to his Luftflotte on September 15th which seem to have brought about the realisation two days later that a planned, now autumn invasion, would most likely go wrong.
The following is argued from a slightly different standpoint, but still makes clear what influenced the decision for delay.
No, I am not confusing the 2, it was you who said
As for Kaiser Bill’s intentions once Paris had fallen following the Old Contemptibles being driven back into the sea if Ypres had fallen, we can only speculate if he was looking for Lebensraum.
and I was referring to that remark and then went on to Hitler and WW2, because you had brought that up as well. Dunkirk wouldn’t have happened if we hadn’t declared war on Germany in '39 because the British Army would not have been there to be ejected and rescued… The speculation that we both referred to was whether or not Germany would have invaded in either war if we had not declared war first. He may not have intended to invade but his hand was forced in that direction by our declaration of war. But we will never know. That’s all.