Eu referendum whats your vote

A question for the contributors who have time to research such matters. It’s well documented that the pan-European steel industry is struggling because of China “dumping” steel into Europe. All the European steel works will pay carbon taxes, as British Steel does. There must be trading tariffs applied to Chinese steel imported into Europe (the Chinese just can’t “dump” it, someone in Europe must buy it), so my question, now I’ve got to it, does the import duty on Chinese steel include an element of Carbon tax?

And another bit of useless information I read recently, it may or may not be true, is that China poured more concrete in the last four years than the USA used in all of the twentieth century.

Personally I don’t agree with government hand outs to big industry or company’s even on a loan basis, these loans are tax payers money and if these company’s are in such dire straights it is highly likely they will ultimately fail leaving the debt unpaid. This was similar to RBS and I think they should have been made to cease trading and disappear, if it was Joe Bloggs transport or John Smith plumber’s they would just cease to be in existence, am I alone with these thoughts or does any one else think like me, Buzzer

Buzzer:
Personally I don’t agree with government hand outs to big industry or company’s even on a loan basis, these loans are tax payers money and if these company’s are in such dire straights it is highly likely they will ultimately fail leaving the debt unpaid. This was similar to RBS and I think they should have been made to cease trading and disappear, if it was Joe Bloggs transport or John Smith plumber’s they would just cease to be in existence, am I alone with these thoughts or does any one else think like me, Buzzer

If a bank is about to fail and ordinary depositors are about to loose their savings, that’s a good use of Gov cash to protect ordinary citizens.
.
If a company makes a financial gamble and looses that’s a different story. (Privatisation of profits. Nationalisation of debts)
BUT the workforce of this riskily managed company will suffer through no fault if their own, won’t they? Fred the truck driver doesn’t know what the Financial Director is doing with the CO2 credits. They could be hard workers on low pay, but cowboy managers have stuffed up their job!
Plus you and I as taxpayers will pay for their dole. We can pay to keep them in work under new management, and contribute taxes in the future, or pay for them to do nowt. Doubtless the SoB managers will be OK.
It ain’t simple to say no bail outs at all.
.
Serial company collapses by bad managers should be punished more IMHO. Mistakes happen, but the risks taken by some managers are criminal. …or should be classed as such.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

I would agree about taxpayers money and big companies, however it does depend on what the industry produces. In the case of steel I see this as different, just as we would ‘hopefully’ never consider abolishing our armed forces the same applies to steel. Without the ability to manufacture military hardware we as a nation are left unable to defend ourselves. The useless politicians engage in spurious arguments about the actual threat we are likely to face. In reality they are ■■■■■■■ in the wind - they simply haven’t got a clue from where the next confrontation will come. Without attempting to list them, there are other industries which we simply cannot do without.

It angers me beyond belief that political morons have decided that we can manage without energy - COAL. Leaving our coal resources so that they can never be recovered was not just criminal, it was treason. They will argue about the emissions issue, which really only came along as a convenient afterthought years later (that’s handy Harry, bung it in the oven) but the truth is, forgetting the political hatred of the miners and unions for a moment, there was not the will to finance the research and development of neutralising the pollutant gases. They have managed to clean up diesel, with time they will achieve more with it, the same would have been true for coal; but they simply wanted an excuse to abandon coal. That decision will bite us in the arse.

gingerfold:
A question for the contributors who have time to research such matters. It’s well documented that the pan-European steel industry is struggling because of China “dumping” steel into Europe. All the European steel works will pay carbon taxes, as British Steel does. There must be trading tariffs applied to Chinese steel imported into Europe (the Chinese just can’t “dump” it, someone in Europe must buy it), so my question, now I’ve got to it, does the import duty on Chinese steel include an element of Carbon tax?

And another bit of useless information I read recently, it may or may not be true, is that China poured more concrete in the last four years than the USA used in all of the twentieth century.

Bill Gates said something about Chinese concrete. ‘China used as much concrete 2011-2013 as the US in the 20th century’?
I’m pretty sure Tim Harford covered it in “More Or Less” somewhen or other. Always a good understandable source, but you’ll need to dig into his podcasts.
Google “3 gorges dam” as well. That one, huge structure has 28 million cubic metres of concrete.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Chinese Concrete:
For sources check “More or Less” March 2017. Figures are for cement which is apparently a good proxy for concrete.

1900 to 1999 the US used
4.2 billion tons of cement.
2008 to 2011 China used
4.8 billion tons of cement.
Moreover
2014 to 2016 China used
7.2 billion tons of cement.
So in just those three years it used one and a half times as much cement as the US did in a whole century.
OK, it has a bigger population, and the figures may be out a tad, but that is a huge output.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

cav551:
I would agree about taxpayers money and big companies, however it does depend on what the industry produces. In the case of steel I see this as different, just as we would ‘hopefully’ never consider abolishing our armed forces the same applies to steel. Without the ability to manufacture military hardware we as a nation are left unable to defend ourselves. The useless politicians engage in spurious arguments about the actual threat we are likely to face. In reality they are ■■■■■■■ in the wind - they simply haven’t got a clue from where the next confrontation will come. Without attempting to list them, there are other industries which we simply cannot do without.

It angers me beyond belief that political morons have decided that we can manage without energy - COAL. Leaving our coal resources so that they can never be recovered was not just criminal, it was treason. They will argue about the emissions issue, which really only came along as a convenient afterthought years later (that’s handy Harry, bung it in the oven) but the truth is, forgetting the political hatred of the miners and unions for a moment, there was not the will to finance the research and development of neutralising the pollutant gases. They have managed to clean up diesel, with time they will achieve more with it, the same would have been true for coal; but they simply wanted an excuse to abandon coal. That decision will bite us in the arse.

^ This

Typical shortsighted Tories like Buzzer don’t understand the meaning of strategic industries until suddenly they need them and they ain’t there.Instead of which they are happy to throw our domestic strategic industries to the wolves of predatory,often state funded if not also potentially hostile,competitors.While expecting ours to then to compete with them or close.

Make no mistake it was the Tories including Thatcher who sold the country out to the EU and it was also the Tories who smashed this country’s industry.At worse to the advantage of potential enemies like China and at best German Federalism.Assuming they don’t nuke the country first in a Chernobyl type disaster.To which their answer is let’s prance around waving their Union Jacks and singing Land of Hope and Glory.Deluded muppets.

Now where to start with my slagging off by the one and only CF who only occasionally posts something that makes any sense, you are assuming that I am a Tory but what do you really know about me or my voting habits, for a start just how do you vote ? or are you one of those who does not bother and then complains about the elected probably so.
True I have voted Tory but when I look at it I used to see them as the best of what’s on offer on the voting card and I cant imagine Corbin and Labour back in power as all they ever do is spend money and lots of it they have not got, just borrow more from the money tree orchard it will be ok. Having said that IMO that I see the Tory’s as the best option I think this Brexit scenario has naffed up the whole political system, the Brexit party is riding the horse that is a protest vote by the public against the inept occupants of Whitehall and we are waving our Union Jacks and may be singing Land of Hope & Glory so what, all we want is our country back which I believe is your wish as well. By the way CF everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because mine is not the same as yours so what, life would be pretty boring if every one was as clever as you would it not, Buzzer.

Buzzer:
Now where to start with my slagging off by the one and only CF who only occasionally posts something that makes any sense, you are assuming that I am a Tory but what do you really know about me or my voting habits, for a start just how do you vote ? or are you one of those who does not bother and then complains about the elected probably so.
True I have voted Tory but when I look at it I used to see them as the best of what’s on offer on the voting card and I cant imagine Corbin and Labour back in power as all they ever do is spend money and lots of it they have not got, just borrow more from the money tree orchard it will be ok. Having said that IMO that I see the Tory’s as the best option I think this Brexit scenario has naffed up the whole political system, the Brexit party is riding the horse that is a protest vote by the public against the inept occupants of Whitehall and we are waving our Union Jacks and may be singing Land of Hope & Glory so what, all we want is our country back which I believe is your wish as well. By the way CF everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because mine is not the same as yours so what, life would be pretty boring if every one was as clever as you would it not, Buzzer.

As always that was only meant on an if the cap fits wear it basis.On that note you were clearly making the case for closing down strategic industries like the steel industry and I’m guessing coal just as cav was referring to.

So regardless of which ideology you actually say you support do you think it’s ok to close down strategic national assets like coal and steel in the face of obvious predatory foreign competition ?.IE there’s not much point in you supposedly supporting your country in song and flag waving if on the other hand you intend to help the foreign competition to wipe it out and/or take it over.Bearing in mind that Thatcher and Heath were clearly both acting against the interests of the country in that regard.

As for Labour yes we know the Party is historically crippled by erroneously thinking that Socialism has the monopoly of the interests of the working class.Voting for the Cons instead,including the Blairites,ain’t going to fix that.When the fact is ‘if’ the Bennites and Shorites had won out and defeated Heath and Thatcher and their puppets like Jenkins and Callaghan we wouldn’t be in this mess of a country staggering around among the wreckage of its strategic and wealth creating industry.Which the Soviet Socialist/Thatcherite/Blairite alliance inflicted on the country by opening the doors to the foreign competition with the help of those like you taking ideological no borders,free market economics and government,to its mad logical conclusion.In this case obviously providing more power for megalomaniacs like Juncker and turning China into a superpower while this country is turned into a subservient dependent joke. :unamused:

Carryfast:

Buzzer:
Now where to start with my slagging off by the one and only CF who only occasionally posts something that makes any sense, you are assuming that I am a Tory but what do you really know about me or my voting habits, for a start just how do you vote ? or are you one of those who does not bother and then complains about the elected probably so.
True I have voted Tory but when I look at it I used to see them as the best of what’s on offer on the voting card and I cant imagine Corbin and Labour back in power as all they ever do is spend money and lots of it they have not got, just borrow more from the money tree orchard it will be ok. Having said that IMO that I see the Tory’s as the best option I think this Brexit scenario has naffed up the whole political system, the Brexit party is riding the horse that is a protest vote by the public against the inept occupants of Whitehall and we are waving our Union Jacks and may be singing Land of Hope & Glory so what, all we want is our country back which I believe is your wish as well. By the way CF everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because mine is not the same as yours so what, life would be pretty boring if every one was as clever as you would it not, Buzzer.

As always that was only meant on an if the cap fits wear it basis.On that note you were clearly making the case for closing down strategic industries like the steel industry and I’m guessing coal just as cav was referring to.

So regardless of which ideology you actually say you support do you think it’s ok to close down strategic national assets like coal and steel in the face of obvious predatory foreign competition ?.IE there’s not much point in you supposedly supporting your country in song and flag waving if on the other hand you intend to help the foreign competition to wipe it out and/or take it over.Bearing in mind that Thatcher and Heath were clearly both acting against the interests of the country in that regard.

As for Labour yes we know the Party is historically crippled by erroneously thinking that Socialism has the monopoly of the interests of the working class.Voting for the Cons instead,including the Blairites,ain’t going to fix that.When the fact is ‘if’ the Bennites and Shorites had won out and defeated Heath and Thatcher and their puppets like Jenkins and Callaghan we wouldn’t be in this mess of a country staggering around among the wreckage of its strategic and wealth creating industry.Which the Soviet Socialist/Thatcherite/Blairite alliance inflicted on the country by opening the doors to the foreign competition with the help of those like you taking ideological no borders,free market economics and government,to its mad logical conclusion.In this case obviously providing more power for megalomaniacs like Juncker and turning China into a superpower while this country is turned into a subservient dependent joke. :unamused:

Now then CF you being such an authority on history and what is good for this country and its politics past and present how is it with the wealth of knowledge you have that you have not got yourself elevated to a position of power in our political system so that all these faults could have been avoided or at least corrected, you could have been a national hero with a cape with CF emblazoned on the front ready for immediate action, a sort of superman figure able to solve all problems however big they are :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

Buzzer:
Now then CF you being such an authority on history and what is good for this country and its politics past and present how is it with the wealth of knowledge you have that you have not got yourself elevated to a position of power in our political system so that all these faults could have been avoided or at least corrected, you could have been a national hero with a cape with CF emblazoned on the front ready for immediate action, a sort of superman figure able to solve all problems however big they are :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

Just an answer to the question would do.The foreign competition go on a mission to take the Brits strategic industries out.Including the use of state subsidies in whatever form to allow predatory pricing and dumping tactics if not buying up our firms and closing them down and/or replacing them with their own puppet operations like French and Chinese power generation and charging us for the privilege.

So do we retaliate by imposing trade barriers and stopping the sale of Brit industry to foreign wreckers and providing state subsidies/investment to provide the incentive to keep us in the game.

Or do we just say who cares let it all go and the Germans and the Chinese etc win not to mention sooner or later turning this small Island into an irradiated uninhabitable wasteland having chosen nuclear over coal.All as part of a typical Tory cutting off their nose to spite their face exercise using the bs global warming and heavy industry is bad lie,to indoctrinate the sheep.All because they hate to see the Brit working class get ahead.Land of Hope and Glory indeed.

dexxy57:
in the last few days this thread has become very courteous and civilised.
What’s going on?

I’m not complaining. I’m just wondering.
Have we all given up on making our Leave/Remain points? Have we all just accepted that what will be, will be?

Good to see normal business has resumed dexxy!

whiplash:

dexxy57:
in the last few days this thread has become very courteous and civilised.
What’s going on?

I’m not complaining. I’m just wondering.
Have we all given up on making our Leave/Remain points? Have we all just accepted that what will be, will be?

Good to see normal business has resumed dexxy!

Hell I just noticed you joined TNUK on my birthday in 2008 a present I never knew about till just now, life is full of little surprises how lucky am I, Buzzer

Seems like Mrs May is getting a lot closer to her last days as P.M.
She hasnt played her cards as well as she might have, and she certainly started out with a bad hand anyway, but there we go. Anyway, it seems like we may get a new Prime Minister soon. The individual will be one of the current elected M.P.s but we, the UK electorate, wont get any say in who it is. The 1922 committee are kicking her out and Conservative Party members get a say in her successor. Less than a perfectly democratic system, but its all our own. Boris Johnson is after the job, and seems ahead in the polls. Doubt the Zaghari-Ratcliffs will be supporting him. He is making news elsewhere too: [independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 04286.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-court-prosecution-vote-leave-bus-westminster-magistrates-a8904286.html) He used false figures. He was told he was using false figures. "Earlier this year he told The Guardian: “There was an error on the side of the bus. We grossly underestimated the sum over which we would be able to take back control" He tells us lies, and when challenged exaggerates those lies! Playing us all for fools. Heres a BBC podcast from May 2017 about Mr Johnson`s accuracy and reliability:
bbc.co.uk/programmes/p050nqjq

There aren’t enough buses in the country on which to write all all the lies populated by both sides in the pre Brexit vote .

Boris Johnson as the new PM, chosen by the 124 000 members (I think that’s correct)of the Tory party. Just like Mrs.May chosen by a few for the 66 million people wether they like it or not. He will be an excellent match for Trump. Oh, and Prince Philip for Foreign secretary and failing Grayling at the Exchequer.
Wow, the future is looking good.

True enough there has been misinformation from all directions.
But when a figure has been pointed out as false, and that same figure is repeated etc, then it is either a deliberate lie, or the perpetrator must have lost contact with reality, surely?
Or does Johnson think that repeating the same nonsense gives it credibility? So, is he a liar or an idiot? Or does he take us all for idiots?
I find it literally incredible that he is still here. Maybe he is correct and many out there are fools?

It seems to be beyond any sort of reason that I can see, so maybe I`m the idiot? (pause for roars of YES!)

Mind you was it Capn Bob Maxwell who said something about lies? "Its easy to get a lie believed: If you tell people what they want to hear, theyll believe anything". Or similar. Works well enough for Trump doesnt it? I thought we Brits were a bit more savvy than that.

Franglais:
True enough there has been misinformation from all directions.
But when a figure has been pointed out as false, and that same figure is repeated etc, then it is either a deliberate lie, or the perpetrator must have lost contact with reality, surely?
Or does Johnson think that repeating the same nonsense gives it credibility? So, is he a liar or an idiot? Or does he take us all for idiots?
I find it literally incredible that he is still here. Maybe he is correct and many out there are fools?

It seems to be beyond any sort of reason that I can see, so maybe I`m the idiot? (pause for roars of YES!)

Mind you was it Capn Bob Maxwell who said something about lies? "Its easy to get a lie believed: If you tell people what they want to hear, theyll believe anything". Or similar. Works well enough for Trump doesnt it? I thought we Brits were a bit more savvy than that.

Lies don’t get any worse than signing over a country to a foreign power claiming that it’s only a ‘Common Market’ and a so called Confedration of Sovereign States,which the EU clearly ain’t.

As for Johnson yes a liar.Just as would be expected of another pro EU Federalist,as part of an ideologically Federalist party,to follow on from Cameron and May,pretending that he’s the opposite. :unamused:

Doesn’t matter who takes over from May, all that matters is they deliver the referendum properly, as both major parties of betrayal promised at the last election.
Failure to do so will see the complete ruination of the fake conservative party.

I’m no Farage shill, but as is becoming increasingly obvious to the betrayed of the country, a large swathe of those 17.4 million, TBP is now the driving force in British politics that people are uniting behind and they are going to sweep the coming european elections.
If the tories are stupid enough to try to force a May type BRINO or a second referendum onto the country, then the people will revolt, not like the French (though i have every sympathy with the French people over what is happening there), but in a very British way, they’ll wait patiently until the general election and then the tories will be wiped out and TBP will form the next govt, and they will undo the treason of the last 3 years and do what the majority of the British voters wanted.

Trump is the best thing that has happened to the USA, you don’t have to like the man, he has faults like any of us, but he’s doing the best he can given the hostility of his opposition to carry out what he promised.
Farage, unlikely as it seems, is now our Trump, you don’t have to like the man but he really is the best chance we have, we are in a time now where the Brexit cause is hand in hand with the very real risk of the total loss of democracy in this country.

We arn’t yet at political violence in the streets, that is not the natural British way unless you’re a lefty or another of many groups associated with the left with their own agendas, but we are at the end of the initial stages of the beginning of the coming war over how this country, and much of the rest of europe is governed.
If we get a Brexit, it won’t be cheering all round, those of us that can still think know that the globalists socialists and their BBC/media propaganda wing will never stop, we will merely have come out on top at the end of the first battle, there will be decades of political and propaganda wars to follow, institutional swamps (no better example than the educational system) infested with decades of left indoctrination, where these days only left approved opinions can be heard taught or implemented.

We cannot be too choosy abut our comrades in the coming battles for the country, we will be fighting beside people we would not normally regard as allies, the common thread being the rule of democracy and the saving of the home country.
How sad that Britain, the mother of all parliaments, has lost its way and its nerve, led by donkeys who have no faith in the country or its people, thankfully the people have woken up just in time (once again), you can almost feel the atmosphere has changed out there away from the westminster/media bubble.

Funniest of what’s happening is how the BBC has become a total laughing stock, along with almost all of the printed press at last seen for what they really are, Marr’s most recent Farage interview must have seen the scales falling from millions more eyes.

Juddian:
Doesn’t matter who takes over from May, all that matters is they deliver the referendum properly, as both major parties of betrayal promised at the last election.
Failure to do so will see the complete ruination of the fake conservative party.

I’m no Farage shill, but as is becoming increasingly obvious to the betrayed of the country, a large swathe of those 17.4 million, TBP is now the driving force in British politics that people are uniting behind and they are going to sweep the coming european elections.
If the tories are stupid enough to try to force a May type BRINO or a second referendum onto the country, then the people will revolt, not like the French (though i have every sympathy with the French people over what is happening there), but in a very British way, they’ll wait patiently until the general election and then the tories will be wiped out and TBP will form the next govt, and they will undo the treason of the last 3 years and do what the majority of the British voters wanted.

Trump is the best thing that has happened to the USA, you don’t have to like the man, he has faults like any of us, but he’s doing the best he can given the hostility of his opposition to carry out what he promised.
Farage, unlikely as it seems, is now our Trump, you don’t have to like the man but he really is the best chance we have, we are in a time now where the Brexit cause is hand in hand with the very real risk of the total loss of democracy in this country.

We arn’t yet at political violence in the streets, that is not the natural British way unless you’re a lefty or another of many groups associated with the left with their own agendas, but we are at the end of the initial stages of the beginning of the coming war over how this country, and much of the rest of europe is governed.
If we get a Brexit, it won’t be cheering all round, those of us that can still think know that the globalists socialists and their BBC/media propaganda wing will never stop, we will merely have come out on top at the end of the first battle, there will be decades of political and propaganda wars to follow, institutional swamps (no better example than the educational system) infested with decades of left indoctrination, where these days only left approved opinions can be heard taught or implemented.

We cannot be too choosy abut our comrades in the coming battles for the country, we will be fighting beside people we would not normally regard as allies, the common thread being the rule of democracy and the saving of the home country.
How sad that Britain, the mother of all parliaments, has lost its way and its nerve, led by donkeys who have no faith in the country or its people, thankfully the people have woken up just in time (once again), you can almost feel the atmosphere has changed out there away from the westminster/media bubble.

Funniest of what’s happening is how the BBC has become a total laughing stock, along with almost all of the printed press at last seen for what they really are, Marr’s most recent Farage interview must have seen the scales falling from millions more eyes.

:confused:

If I’ve got it right you were rightly along the lines that Farage is a controlled opposition establishment plant ?.Have to say as one of the 17.4 million if the country thinks that Batten is an extremist just for agreeing with TR and prefers to trust Farage then I certainly won’t be helping the sheep to deliver the final nail in the form of laughably named Brexit Party.When Farage is much closer to Thatcher than Le Pen in that regard not to mention HM obviously being part of the whole stinking conspiracy.The fact is this country keeps on making the same mistakes over and over again and expects a different outcome each time and seems hell bent on continuously voting for people like Thatcher and Blair.Or at best controlled opposition figures like Farage who’s main claim to fame is scamming the country with the red herring that it’s ok to vote a nation state out of existence and into EU vassalage if Cameron could fool enough of the electorate and/or rig the vote well enough.Including the tactic of a referendum based on binding if Remain wins and non binding if it doesn’t and it’s ok to hand the country over to Saudi radical Islamic takeover as part of the deal.No thanks if the place is that keen on its own destruction and trusting people like Farage over Batten then put it out of its misery and let it go.Which seems to be the conclusion which Batten has already reached.

Like your post this Sunday Juddian, just a little footnote and that is I have a lady who buys her eggs from me each week and she works as a counter when an election arises and this week she has been on duty counting postal votes for the upcoming Euro elections and whispered to me that she should not really say ought but Brexit are streets ahead and also a lot have disfigured there ballot slips with all types of derogatory comments which is understandable given the circumstances many stating these Euro elections we should never be involved in, cheers Buzzer.