By heck, Buzzer is that 2016 (using data from 2002) Minford report still afloat?
Professor Minford did indeed use those figures quoted in that newspaper(?) article.
Here is a link to a review of Prof Minford`s figures.
cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf
“Minford describes in his model that an implication of the ‘Britain Alone’ policy (Minford et
al, 2016, p. 74 Table 4.3) is that it will ‘effectively eliminate manufacturing’ in the UK. Another
implication of his preferred policy is a dramatic increase in wage inequality: skilled workers’
nominal wages increase by around 11%, but unskilled workers’ wages fall by 14%.1 These
changes are unlikely to be an easy sell politically, to say the least.”
“require an understanding of how thinking about the economics
of trade has developed in the last five decades, and how these features are overlooked in the
Minford approach”
So even if we accept what he says*, Minford reckons we drivers being more than 10% worse off is OK in a competitive UK!
*I certainly dont see how he (almost alone) is right when [economistsforremain.org/](https://economistsforremain.org/) 175 UK economists and 12 Noble laureats think hes wrong…
Thank goodness for some sanity from Franglais.
We can manage quite well without replicating what was happening in Paris last night.
France has a long history of rioting at the drop of a hat that’s one custom they can keep on the other side of the channel. I
Looking at a few posts on here one suggests our manufacturing output will drop. Has anyone got the figures for manufacturing before we entered the EEC , our commercial vehicle and car industries are virtually gone compared with before joining . Many of our big corporates are foreign owned , we have HSBC threatening to move their headquarters to Paris if we leave , if I was one of their customers I would move my money to another bank now.
Do people walk around with their eyes closed , how can being part of the EU and all it stands for be the best option for this country. This country is full just listen to the opposition on the NHS , saying the government isnt doing enough even though they didnt do any different when they were in power . How can it survive when people are flooding into this country who have paid nothing into the system whatsoever but can use our facilities for free. My mother has been in a home for over two years with dementia and she has worked all her life never signed on but her savings are being drained by the high cost of the nursing home shes living in but the EU demands free movement throughout Europe . Theres an all party group getting together demanding to see the legal side of Mays deal something the government is holding back , they state the government isn`t coming clean … hello when did any politician ever do the right thing ,everything they do is in their best interests not the nation otherwise Brexit would have been dealt with 2 years ago . The EU … Our terms or nothing … UK … OK no deal … sorted . Only problem is none of them are wanting Brexit
By heck, Buzzer is that 2016 (using data from 2002) Minford report still afloat?
Professor Minford did indeed use those figures quoted in that newspaper(?) article.
Here is a link to a review of Prof Minford`s figures.
cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf
“Minford describes in his model that an implication of the ‘Britain Alone’ policy (Minford et
al, 2016, p. 74 Table 4.3) is that it will ‘effectively eliminate manufacturing’ in the UK. Another
implication of his preferred policy is a dramatic increase in wage inequality: skilled workers’
nominal wages increase by around 11%, but unskilled workers’ wages fall by 14%.1 These
changes are unlikely to be an easy sell politically, to say the least.”
“require an understanding of how thinking about the economics
of trade has developed in the last five decades, and how these features are overlooked in the
Minford approach”
So even if we accept what he says*, Minford reckons we drivers being more than 10% worse off is OK in a competitive UK!
*I certainly dont see how he (almost alone) is right when [economistsforremain.org/](https://economistsforremain.org/) 175 UK economists and 12 Noble laureats think hes wrong…
Absolutely.The EU would never do free markets pitting low wage areas of the Federation against high wage areas by taking advantage of the free movement of goods and people.Nor free markets competition laws which mean that a shop selling Brit or even EU produced goods can’t force cartel type wholesale pricing conditions on shops selling cheap Chinese crap.Oh wait.
On that note what rule says that we can’t actually have an anti free markets protectionist type of Brexit given a decent Labour government that actually works for Brit workers.Now awaits the convenient contradiction in the remain argument of actually being all for free markets while preaching protectionism when and as it suits them.When everyone knows that what they are really all about is centralised undemocratic rule and takeover of Europe’s nation states by an unelected politburo elite dictatorship enforced by a Federal Soviet style army while also being happy to say how high when their cultural Marxist Chinese cronies say jump as part of that.
ramone:
Looking at a few posts on here one suggests our manufacturing output will drop. Has anyone got the figures for manufacturing before we entered the EEC , our commercial vehicle and car industries are virtually gone compared with before joining . Many of our big corporates are foreign owned , we have HSBC threatening to move their headquarters to Paris if we leave , if I was one of their customers I would move my money to another bank now.
Do people walk around with their eyes closed , how can being part of the EU and all it stands for be the best option for this country. This country is full just listen to the opposition on the NHS , saying the government isnt doing enough even though they didnt do any different when they were in power . How can it survive when people are flooding into this country who have paid nothing into the system whatsoever but can use our facilities for free. My mother has been in a home for over two years with dementia and she has worked all her life never signed on but her savings are being drained by the high cost of the nursing home shes living in but the EU demands free movement throughout Europe . Theres an all party group getting together demanding to see the legal side of Mays deal something the government is holding back , they state the government isn`t coming clean … hello when did any politician ever do the right thing ,everything they do is in their best interests not the nation otherwise Brexit would have been dealt with 2 years ago . The EU … Our terms or nothing … UK … OK no deal … sorted . Only problem is none of them are wanting Brexit
Youre asking some very relevant questions. How do you count things though? Is a Honda Civic made in Swindon a UK car in your view? Nissan? Jaguar (owned by TATA)? All the above certainly provide UK jobs dont they? Even if the company owners are not UK citizens. statista.com/statistics/298 … d-kingdom/
Statista shows a definite drop from 1972 to 2009, but a steady increase from then, so in 2017 and 2018 we made more cars than ever. Headline, easy to understand figure, but not exactly what some politicos would have us believe, is it?
Introduce cost and delay in transport of necessary components? Will those cars still be made here? More importantly, what of future new factories?
The ONS for manufacturing and immigration stats. It`s all there, if you can spent the time on it.
“one suggests our manufacturing output will drop” maybe you`re referring to Buzzer quoting Minford, which I then quoted?
If so it shows how simple figures are easy to misinterpret: Minford is one of a small number of professional economists in favour of Brexit, and says the UK would be better off overall, in terms of GDP, but also says our manufacturing industry would be hit very hard, and many workers would be worse off!
Spending on NHS?
Not easy to pick the bones out of that either, is it? Adjusting for inflation, an aging population, etc.
Try this though. fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/
It is as clear and simple as youll find, without dumbing down to the point of being meaningless. And not surprisingly itll take more than 30seconds to read, and much longer to get your head around. But you may notice that the Governments of Blair and Brown did spent more than any Tory Govs, and even Thatcher spent more on the NHS than Cameron!
Franglais:
Youre asking some very relevant questions. How do you count things though? Is a Honda Civic made in Swindon a UK car in your view? Nissan? Jaguar (owned by TATA)? All the above certainly provide UK jobs dont they? Even if the company owners are not UK citizens. statista.com/statistics/298 … d-kingdom/
Statista shows a definite drop from 1972 to 2009, but a steady increase from then, so in 2017 and 2018 we made more cars than ever. Headline, easy to understand figure, but not exactly what some politicos would have us believe, is it?
'Statista are obviously conveniently comparing the oranges of assembly of imported foreign ‘made’ components with the apples of 1970’s UK car manufacturing in which the majority of the car was made here from steel producer to finished product.While ownership is obviously yet another can of worms.On that note it’s clear that the EU’s so called ‘protectionist’ credentials are anything but.While the Brits are in the lose lose position of getting hit from all directions both EU and Global wether it be Brit jobs for foreign workers in the form of the import of foreign made goods.Or the import of foreign labour.In addition to foreign ownership of previously household name blue chip firms.In which case it’s equally clear that the worst case deal we had,in the form of our pre EEC/EU US trading relationship,at least kept more manufacturing and jobs here in addition to more autonomy of the UK divisions of firms like Ford,GM,■■■■■■■ and Fuller.While if you bought a Leyland product at least the thing was generally all of domestic manufacture as opposed to assembly of foreign components.While in theory UK ownership meant that the profits also ( should have ) stayed in the UK economy added to the unarguable case that the wages earn’t here were spent here.Until we opened the flood gates to both global and EU imports and the foreign ownership free for all.The rest is history a foreign owned asset stripped nation of shopkeepers and pen pushers and warehouse staff and a manufacturing sector based on the assembly of foreign components and Brits having to compete with an open door immigration policy for what jobs remain.With a debt mountain to prove it.Then to add insult to injury the government sells out what remains of our sovereignty to rule by Juncker and Tusk and gives away what cash we have to the EU for the privilege.To which your answer is more of the same that’ll fix it.
No CF, we are where we are, and leaving the EU is not going to resurrect Leyland, Jaguar, British Steel etc. etc.
Whatever the reasons or mistakes of the past, that is current fact, and there is no going back.
Your solution is a little like saying we had a great navy till we cut down all the oak tress, so lets plant loads more oaks and we’ll be great again. Doesn’t work like that.
ramone:
Looking at a few posts on here one suggests our manufacturing output will drop. Has anyone got the figures for manufacturing before we entered the EEC , our commercial vehicle and car industries are virtually gone compared with before joining . Many of our big corporates are foreign owned , we have HSBC threatening to move their headquarters to Paris if we leave , if I was one of their customers I would move my money to another bank now.
Do people walk around with their eyes closed , how can being part of the EU and all it stands for be the best option for this country. This country is full just listen to the opposition on the NHS , saying the government isnt doing enough even though they didnt do any different when they were in power . How can it survive when people are flooding into this country who have paid nothing into the system whatsoever but can use our facilities for free. My mother has been in a home for over two years with dementia and she has worked all her life never signed on but her savings are being drained by the high cost of the nursing home shes living in but the EU demands free movement throughout Europe . Theres an all party group getting together demanding to see the legal side of Mays deal something the government is holding back , they state the government isn`t coming clean … hello when did any politician ever do the right thing ,everything they do is in their best interests not the nation otherwise Brexit would have been dealt with 2 years ago . The EU … Our terms or nothing … UK … OK no deal … sorted . Only problem is none of them are wanting Brexit
Youre asking some very relevant questions. How do you count things though? Is a Honda Civic made in Swindon a UK car in your view? Nissan? Jaguar (owned by TATA)? All the above certainly provide UK jobs dont they? Even if the company owners are not UK citizens. statista.com/statistics/298 … d-kingdom/
Statista shows a definite drop from 1972 to 2009, but a steady increase from then, so in 2017 and 2018 we made more cars than ever. Headline, easy to understand figure, but not exactly what some politicos would have us believe, is it?
Introduce cost and delay in transport of necessary components? Will those cars still be made here? More importantly, what of future new factories?
The ONS for manufacturing and immigration stats. It`s all there, if you can spent the time on it.
“one suggests our manufacturing output will drop” maybe you`re referring to Buzzer quoting Minford, which I then quoted?
If so it shows how simple figures are easy to misinterpret: Minford is one of a small number of professional economists in favour of Brexit, and says the UK would be better off overall, in terms of GDP, but also says our manufacturing industry would be hit very hard, and many workers would be worse off!
Spending on NHS?
Not easy to pick the bones out of that either, is it? Adjusting for inflation, an aging population, etc.
Try this though. fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/
It is as clear and simple as youll find, without dumbing down to the point of being meaningless. And not surprisingly itll take more than 30seconds to read, and much longer to get your head around. But you may notice that the Governments of Blair and Brown did spent more than any Tory Govs, and even Thatcher spent more on the NHS than Cameron!
I dont class a Nissan made in Washington with parts coming from all over Europe and profits going to Japan British.Yes we have many companies here that also supply Nissan creating lots of jobs but its not a British company. If we leave without a deal we should have the oportunity to start manufacturing again here and not being swamped with EU imports. We will have a choice who we want to trade with and we. can get the best deals for Britain not the EU. We can also put a stop to free movement taking pressure off the NHS and the non contributors who seem to use it most.Take a trip up to Bradford Royal Infirmary and you will know what i mean.
Spardo:
No CF, we are where we are, and leaving the EU is not going to resurrect Leyland, Jaguar, British Steel etc. etc.
Whatever the reasons or mistakes of the past, that is current fact, and there is no going back.
Your solution is a little like saying we had a great navy till we cut down all the oak tress, so lets plant loads more oaks and we’ll be great again. Doesn’t work like that.
It’s so much better to go on with the status quo of surrendering the country to foreign rule and inflicting austerity at home to pay for the resulting sabotage and theft of the country’s assets and cash reserves.
My ‘solution’ is more like quisling fifth column sabateurs within allowed our enemies to burn and take our oak trees so now we have to start building ships made of steel.Or we hand over the country to those enemies and admit defeat.( Unlike you I regard the EU as a hostile enemy illegitimate rogue state ) that,unlike even despotic China,doesn’t even have international recognition as a so called country.
On that note if we are going to get the courts involved maybe it’s time to start questioning the legality of a non recognised,but obviously wannabee rogue state ( EU Federation ),acting for all intents and purposes like a country in terms of enforcing its illegitimate government and policies across Europe.To the point where it now only recognises the borders of the Federation.It’s time to start to view the stinking Soviet style EU for what it is being an insidious illegal hostile takeover of Europe’s nation states using subterfuge and subversion within.Which obviously includes the sabotage and theft of the British economic wealth creating sectors.Then as a result laughably trying,as in your case,to say that we are now dependent on the goodwill of these mafia like criminals to look after us now that they have taken and continue to take everything we had/have.Even the Krays provided London’s traders with a better deal and more autonomy to run their affairs than these amateur Continental con men are trying to foist onto this country.
ramone:
We will have a choice who we want to trade with and we. can get the best deals for Britain not the EU. We can also put a stop to free movement taking pressure off the NHS and the non contributors who seem to use it most.Take a trip up to Bradford Royal Infirmary and you will know what i mean.
We have always been able to trade with who we want
Put a stop to some free movement but remember anyone from the commonwealth countries can come here freely
Of course all those that voted to leave will not want to go abroad for their holidays so they can stay here spend there money here to help the economy or & if wine etc goes up nobody will complain due to the extra tax on it or import duty
ramone:
We will have a choice who we want to trade with and we. can get the best deals for Britain not the EU. We can also put a stop to free movement taking pressure off the NHS and the non contributors who seem to use it most.Take a trip up to Bradford Royal Infirmary and you will know what i mean.
We have always been able to trade with who we want
Put a stop to some free movement but remember anyone from the commonwealth countries can come here freely
Of course all those that voted to leave will not want to go abroad for their holidays so they can stay here spend there money here to help the economy or & if wine etc goes up nobody will complain due to the extra tax on it or import duty
Commonwealth citizens are not so bad its all the other freeloaders that are the main problem like the economic migrants not from a war torn scenario, as for the wine we now produce quite a lot here in Blighty that beats the European stuff in competitions and there are many other producers around the world to fill that void, they wont tax that too much they want to unload the stuff. As for holidays they will still want our business as its what keeps the like of Spain & Portugal afloat as they rely on that trade so I don’t see much change there either.
Now for France I think Macron needs to sort out his own backyard before he starts threatening us over fishing rights, the Frogs are not happy bunnies at the moment high fuel taxes and employment taxes but they all want 4 day working weeks and to retire at 50 and that’s fine if you can afford it but they cannot and if we leave we wont be helping out with funds either, Buzzer.
animal:
We have always been able to trade with who we want
Put a stop to some free movement but remember anyone from the commonwealth countries can come here freely
Of course all those that voted to leave will not want to go abroad for their holidays so they can stay here spend there money here to help the economy or & if wine etc goes up nobody will complain due to the extra tax on it or import duty
Try to import an Australian truck or spec a Fuller box in a Volvo or import an American car without paying loads of duty or running into EU quota barriers and type approval issues.
As for free movement of Commonwealth citizens the Immigration Acts of 1968 and 71 say different and as we know try telling that to Australian or Canadian immigration for any Brit wanting to move there.
As for going abroad for holidays that doesn’t mean that I expect the destination country to take over the government of my own.On that note there’s obviously no need to become a US state just to go there on holiday and I can remember some great holidays touring around Europe before we joined the EEC.So where’s the difference in the case of us leaving the EU Federal government system now.As for the minor inconvenience caused by justified retaliation against hostile EU trade sanctions that seems moot when people have had to give their lives for the country’s freedom and the national interest.
Buzzer:
Now for France I think Macron needs to sort out his own backyard before he starts threatening us over fishing rights, the Frogs are not happy bunnies at the moment high fuel taxes and employment taxes but they all want 4 day working weeks and to retire at 50 and that’s fine if you can afford it but they cannot and if we leave we wont be helping out with funds either, Buzzer.
More like the reality is dawning of EU policies regarding ‘global warming’ and race to the bottom economics imposed on the working classes by people like May,Macron and Blair v the blind idealism and lies of the Labour/Union leadership for example.As for can’t afford civilised living standards and a fair taxation system that’s exactly what Macron and Blairite elites would say and it’s why the ‘Labour’ Party and Conservatives are allied in keeping us tied to this unholy elitist cheap labour and regressive taxation race to the bottom alliance sold to the naive sheep as pro workers rights and ‘environmental’ policy.On that note it’s ironic that there are Con leave voters who would be expected to have more in common with May’s and Blair’s rabble as opposed to Labour remain voters who would be expected to have more in common with people like Benn and Hoey.
ramone:
We will have a choice who we want to trade with and we. can get the best deals for Britain not the EU. We can also put a stop to free movement taking pressure off the NHS and the non contributors who seem to use it most.Take a trip up to Bradford Royal Infirmary and you will know what i mean.
We have always been able to trade with who we want
Put a stop to some free movement but remember anyone from the commonwealth countries can come here freely
Of course all those that voted to leave will not want to go abroad for their holidays so they can stay here spend there money here to help the economy [emoji38] [emoji38] or & if wine etc goes up nobody will complain due to the extra tax on it or import duty
Commonwealth citizens are not so bad its all the other freeloaders that are the main problem like the economic migrants not from a war torn scenario, as for the wine we now produce quite a lot here in Blighty that beats the European stuff in competitions and there are many other producers around the world to fill that void, they wont tax that too much they want to unload the stuff. As for holidays they will still want our business as its what keeps the like of Spain & Portugal afloat as they rely on that trade so I don’t see much change there either.
Now for France I think Macron needs to sort out his own backyard before he starts threatening us over fishing rights, the Frogs are not happy bunnies at the moment high fuel taxes and employment taxes but they all want 4 day working weeks and to retire at 50 and that’s fine if you can afford it but they cannot and if we leave we wont be helping out with funds either, Buzzer.
Macron surely has problems at home. How does that compare to the UK where our Gov is criticised by yourself for not listening to the people?
How does his Gov compare with ours regarding Health Rail Education Roads Energy?
Re ‘funding’ the French economy (GDP) is about the same size as ours, but they pay the EU about 20% more to the EU than us.
What’s your definition of a ‘freeloader’?
There are some excellent British wines today. Hooray! We agree.
British wines account for about a thousandth of the domestic market. So you’re right it seems we’ll need to carry on importing it. We can pay transport and emit CO2 for collection from our next door neighbours, or from halfway around the world. Hmmmm.
Franglais:
Macron surely has problems at home. How does that compare to the UK where our Gov is criticised by yourself for not listening to the people?
How does his Gov compare with ours regarding Health Rail Education Roads Energy?
Re ‘funding’ the French economy (GDP) is about the same size as ours, but they pay the EU about 20% more to the EU than us.
What’s your definition of a ‘freeloader’?
There are some excellent British wines today. Hooray! We agree.
British wines account for about a thousandth of the domestic market. So you’re right it seems we’ll need to carry on importing it. We can pay transport and emit CO2 for collection from our next door neighbours, or from halfway around the world. Hmmmm.
Firstly have you thought that the Brit GDP figures are a smoke and mirrors fabrication based on printed or even electronic fake money being paid to people,in exchange for office workers sending e mails and electronic money transactions between each other and warehouse charges for storing imported stuff that we could make for ourselves.While the fact that the French are being screwed more than us just means that they are stupid enough to be up for more of the self inflicted economic harm,caused by their enthusiasm for the wanabee EU superstate,than our government is.Although you can bet that will all change when May finishes the job of selling out the country.
As for importing wines from around the world we are already doing that anyway with the supermarkets shelves here actually full of more South American,Australian and North American wines than French,Italian and German combined.While you seem to be conveniently missing the point that any trade war arising from us leaving the EU would be of the EU’s making not ours.That’s ‘if’ we had a government which was working in the national interest as opposed to the EU’s.
The " up their own backside " powers that be in the EU must be getting desperate for us not to leave. They said today that, in case we were wondering, if we wanted to change our minds and stay, WE WOULD NOT NEED THEIR PERMISSION !!!
The absolute arrogance of the bar stewards. It says it all really, we should now just tell them we’ve tried to do it the decent way, but if they want to play silly buggers then sod it , we’re off.
Now that the Government is digging itself deeper and deeper into the smelly brown stuff over its Brexit dealings, it seems that more and more outsiders are popping up to give the Government “advice” on the subject. Mark Carney is predicting a steep drop in the economy if we leave - and this is the same chap who said confidently that Britain would be back in recession within three months of a Leave vote. Well, he got that wrong, didn’t he - and he runs the Bank of England. Vince Cable has awoken from his slumbers to press for another referendum, nowt new there then. OK Vince, what if we had another one, and the leave majority was bigger than before - what next - demand a recount? Give it a rest, man. Then, as Old 67 mentioned, our pals across the North Sea are now telling us that we can stay if we like, and we don’t even have to ask their permission. The next few days are going to be very interesting. What other things will be revealed, who will fall and who will rise? One thing I’m pretty sure of is that no matter which way they voted, the majority of the British public are heartily fed up of the way that the job is being handled. We voted to leave the EU, not to be shackled to the parts of it that suit the unelected dictatorship across the water, and the sooner everyone accepts that, the better.
Well quite a day on the Brexit scene Nigel Farage has quit the UKIP party as he does not like the tendencies of its new leader and the direction it is heading, Mrs May takes a battering in parliament and for sure there is more of that heading her way. Brussels told us that the deal on the table was final take it or leave it only last week but are frantically working on something different as they can see which way the commons vote is likely to pan out so may change there mind and rehash the job to help it through here.
As for France Macron is running scared of his countrymen and backed down and has put a hold for six months on the proposed tax increase on fuel because he does not want any more rioting like last weekend so you can see who really is in charge there. Imagine what he will be up against if we take back our fishing waters for sure there will be riots then so not looking so rosy for him as his bait has fallen from his hook and threatening us is not the way forward.
All in all the news is everything Brexit and you cannot escape it and I for one cant wait for the vote next Tuesday and what happens after that, no one can forecast that not even the political bods in Whitehall who are supposed to know what is going on. Wont be surprised at all what they will come up with next and when it is all done and dusted what the hell will we talk about no one knows either, Buzzer.
PS. oh and the TV debate between Mrs May & Jerry is off as the BBC cant agree with both sides & Jerry will only do it on ITV for some reason, wonder what that is.
I didn’t have much on to-day so I watched most of the shambles unfolding in Parliament, but one thing is certain that ■■■■ Corbin hasn’t a ■■■■■■■ clue and certainly him and his Marxist Buddies are a disaster waiting to happen if we are unfortunately inflicted with them as our next Government ! Surely a sensible Electorate will not vote Corbyn into No 10, although Teresa has ■■■■■■ me off big time the Conservatives are still a far better bet than the “Smelly Socks” aka The Labour lot ! Someone out of the Conservative ranks has got to step forward in our hour of need and sort this ■■■■■■■ shambles out ! Cheers Bewick.
