EU Referendem

[carryfast]

Buzzer:
Carryfast its no good ranting on about Heath and Wilson that time has long gone, water under the bridge and all that. We need to concentrate on what is happening right now. We import more from them than we sell to them so I cant see them kicking us into touch, and when Greece goes pop which is looking more likely by the day lots will want out, Buzzer.

The times and the players are different but the arguments regarding in v out remain just the same.Those being sovereignty,trade inbalance with no way of using tarrifs and barriers to control it,wealth ‘redistribution’ and now all the implications of Eastward ‘enlargement’ and an open door immigration policy.

While the trade deficit was an in built given from the time we joined it and was no accident.Bearing in mind the condition in Germany’s war debt repayments being conditional on Germany maintaining a trade surplus situation being just one example of the trade scam.The result being that we effectively gave them oil in exchange for manufactured goods which we could,and previously did,make for ourselves.While throwing our own workforce on the dole and subjecting ourselves to the same price for our own oil as our major European competitors were paying for it.

[saviem]

Evening all,

Well when we went into the Union, I misguidedly thought that we would be able to take the reins and lead the mob!!!

After all, it was our legal people who laid down the framework and legislation for the Coal and steel federation.

It was us, who had drafted the infamous Human Rights Legislation.

That De Gaulle held us out for so long is a sad reflection on the total lack of commercial ability of our political class…be they left, right, or centre.

When we did go in, the country as a whole, and industry in particular was utterly unprepared for membership. Our own industry, in terms of equipment manufactured by domestic producers was totally out of step with mainland Europe, and the changes that would naturally take place. Limited, (as ever), by domestic legislation, that stipulated weight, length, and operational legislation that simply was totally out of step with mainland Europe.

Edward Heath`s statement, that industry would feel the cold wind of competition…is quite simply an illustration of how the Political class, (right, or left), is unaware of the consequence, or responsibility of their actions.

The country was never prepared for membership, and should therefore have stayed outside the Union, which even a blind man on a Donkey, could see was heading for a political union as opposed to a trading relationship!

But now here we are in 2015. Perhaps the economy that has made the strongest recovery in the west. Our strength is in Technology, Pharmacuiticals, Engineering design, and innovation…but not the old labour intensive heavy manufacture that I remember, and enjoyed. That is too costly …(and before dear Carryfast screams “ow about the jerries”…my pals new Mercedes is produced in Brazil!

We come out?..bit negative after being in for so long…and the iconic “brands”, that we think of as British, are now in the hands of Global owners…and easily portable to where the market lies! A fact so easily ignored by the politicians, and moronic media!

Farming…without the CAP UK farmers, Livestock, and Arable could lead the World. Feather bed payments, are not that. They are payments to compensate for having to produce to a stupid centralised economic plan. And just as the Soviet centralised economy collapsed, then the same will happen in the EU unless it is reformed. My own farm could have quadrupled production of food on the same cost base, …but we could not…we were not allowed so to do…Agriculture is an interesting case…believe me it a`int free gift time at all. But it is a stupid, burocratic, and messy system.

Renegotiate…well yes…if we can…the Germans would welcome change, they suffer as we do…France…the socialist basket case of Europe…Italy…was, is, and always will be corrupt…so not much hope there! As is Greece…write of the Mediteranean basin…the Ottomans did, and history tells us they were right…the East, well they have got their noses in a full food trough, so they will not want change…(ever wondered why the Eastern Bloc always have new lorries…study how their Governments handle the EU funds for infrastructure development…ultra cheap lease deals for kit you old boys could only dream about…

So try to re-negotiate …will not be easy…particularly as our economy is one of Europes stronger ones…

If it does not succeed…well we are right back to the days of dear Edward Heaths stupid statement…because we have no preparation for plan B…only an in out referendum…ok we come out…where is the preparation for the future…WELL…there is none.

Why have we not entered negotiations with the BRICK grouping of countries…or any other emerging economies…

We a`int got a plan B…and if we had a plan B…then our plan A to re- negotiate would be much stronger…

And if we are out my Bollinger will cost more…

Cheerio for now.

[simon]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there Saviem.

[caffeine]

I will definitely vote ‘yes’ to stay in the EU. I have always supported the concept and I believe that leaving the EU would be a disaster. Too many people only look through one end of the telescope, regarding EU migrant workers coming to Britain. But if we left the EU British people would lose their EU citizenship and with that their automatic right to live and work anywhere in the EU. Furthermore, even from outside the EU, we would still need to abide by many EU regulations since a large portion of our trade is with the EU, but we’d no longer have any say in making the regulations.

The EU is far from perfect and it needs reforms, but the concept is too good to throw away and I believe we and other countries should work together to improve the EU, so it can concentrate on matters where pooling resources or standardisation make sense, but keeping its nose out of things that are best left to individual nations.

[buzzer]

Saviem:
Evening all,

Well when we went into the Union, I misguidedly thought that we would be able to take the reins and lead the mob!!!

After all, it was our legal people who laid down the framework and legislation for the Coal and steel federation.

It was us, who had drafted the infamous Human Rights Legislation.

That De Gaulle held us out for so long is a sad reflection on the total lack of commercial ability of our political class…be they left, right, or centre.

When we did go in, the country as a whole, and industry in particular was utterly unprepared for membership. Our own industry, in terms of equipment manufactured by domestic producers was totally out of step with mainland Europe, and the changes that would naturally take place. Limited, (as ever), by domestic legislation, that stipulated weight, length, and operational legislation that simply was totally out of step with mainland Europe.

Edward Heath`s statement, that industry would feel the cold wind of competition…is quite simply an illustration of how the Political class, (right, or left), is unaware of the consequence, or responsibility of their actions.

The country was never prepared for membership, and should therefore have stayed outside the Union, which even a blind man on a Donkey, could see was heading for a political union as opposed to a trading relationship!

But now here we are in 2015. Perhaps the economy that has made the strongest recovery in the west. Our strength is in Technology, Pharmacuiticals, Engineering design, and innovation…but not the old labour intensive heavy manufacture that I remember, and enjoyed. That is too costly …(and before dear Carryfast screams “ow about the jerries”…my pals new Mercedes is produced in Brazil!

We come out?..bit negative after being in for so long…and the iconic “brands”, that we think of as British, are now in the hands of Global owners…and easily portable to where the market lies! A fact so easily ignored by the politicians, and moronic media!

Farming…without the CAP UK farmers, Livestock, and Arable could lead the World. Feather bed payments, are not that. They are payments to compensate for having to produce to a stupid centralised economic plan. And just as the Soviet centralised economy collapsed, then the same will happen in the EU unless it is reformed. My own farm could have quadrupled production of food on the same cost base, …but we could not…we were not allowed so to do…Agriculture is an interesting case…believe me it a`int free gift time at all. But it is a stupid, burocratic, and messy system.

Renegotiate…well yes…if we can…the Germans would welcome change, they suffer as we do…France…the socialist basket case of Europe…Italy…was, is, and always will be corrupt…so not much hope there! As is Greece…write of the Mediteranean basin…the Ottomans did, and history tells us they were right…the East, well they have got their noses in a full food trough, so they will not want change…(ever wondered why the Eastern Bloc always have new lorries…study how their Governments handle the EU funds for infrastructure development…ultra cheap lease deals for kit you old boys could only dream about…

So try to re-negotiate …will not be easy…particularly as our economy is one of Europes stronger ones…

If it does not succeed…well we are right back to the days of dear Edward Heaths stupid statement…because we have no preparation for plan B…only an in out referendum…ok we come out…where is the preparation for the future…WELL…there is none.

Why have we not entered negotiations with the BRICK grouping of countries…or any other emerging economies…

We a`int got a plan B…and if we had a plan B…then our plan A to re- negotiate would be much stronger…

And if we are out my Bollinger will cost more…

Cheerio for now.

Saviem my friend the more I read your inputs to these threads I wish you could have been my dad, you would make a great leader in any situation and I feel you would have past on a little of your knowledge and made me a wiser person. That said you always seem to do your writing before taking of the Bollinger so it is done with a clear mind, thank you Buzzer.

[rog]

I started a poll here = viewtopic.php?f=15&t=126588

[shirtbox2003]

The Big question is. Will we be able to leave.? Look at what happened in Ireland, keep voting till the e.u. get the vote they want.If we do leave it will be the end of London as a financial centre for sure.Needs a lot of thought this one.

[3300john]

Hiya…although it hurts to say i think stay in is the answer… its a case of better you know than what might happen.
if we say NO. we could be left to rot…

[ramone]

Definitely voting out , I don’t understand why we have to all work from the same hymn sheet .What works for France may not work here what works for Italy may not suit Germany , I think it should be a trade only union and let the individual countries govern their selves then we wouldn`t have the ridiculous regulations that have been forced upon us

[carryfast]

shirtbox2003:
The Big question is. Will we be able to leave.? Look at what happened in Ireland, keep voting till the e.u. get the vote they want.If we do leave it will be the end of London as a financial centre for sure.Needs a lot of thought this one.

According to the bankers it is more a case of vice versa.IE EU rules and regulations that as expected favour Frankfurt.

That’s even if anyone believes that we can carry on basing the economy on the services and financial sectors rather than get back to a manufacturing base and we won’t do that in the ongoing situation where the Germans think they have the god given right to keep the market cornered in that regard.While what the Germans don’t do/want is done by cheap labour East Euro industrial operations.

[carryfast]

3300John:
Hiya…although it hurts to say i think stay in is the answer… its a case of better you know than what might happen.
if we say NO. we could be left to rot…

Define ‘left to rot’.In an environment where we pay a fortune as a net contributor to a trade scam that puts us in a trade deficit situation since we joined it and in which to add insult to injury we have to hand over the sovereignty of the country’s government to majority Federal vote with no right of opt out or veto.

[bewick]

For a start the EU is akin to FIFA both are corrupt (and mainland European) what other UK company could carry on for over 20 years who’s Accountants refused to sign off their accounts as a true and honest reflection of the business ? The EU has managed it ! As we have been a trading nation for 1000 years I don’t believe we have anything to fear by exiting the EU and then strengthening our trading ties worldwide,and do not worry Mr Mercedes/VW MAN Scania Volvo and a host of other mainland Euro suppliers will still wish to carry on supplying us as we are too large a market for them to turn their backs on.How come Norway and Switzerland prosper very well outside the EU.Do not believe the BS from Chancellor Merkel when she says she wants the UK to remain within the EU,yes she wants our fiscal contribution but we will have to play second fiddle to her and her French poodles at all times.They will never succeed in forming a European Superstate as the differences between Northern and Southern Europe,never mind the West and the East of the continent are just so deeply rooted together with a miriad of “vested” interest between the various countries.However,it will be interesting to see what ,if any,substantial improvements Cameron can negotiate.Very few of any consequence I would guess then just watch the Slimy ■■■■ try to convince us that the few sops the Germans and French have thrown him are major successes (in his mind) then he will do his very best “con job” to get us to vote to stay in ! Mark my words! Cheers Bewick.

[carryfast]

The reality is that in an environment where much of the world’s industrial capacity has increased to levels of more than self sufficiency,but the wage structure remains locked in a non Fordist race to the bottom.‘Trade’ for the developed economies is now mostly a liability,of cheap labour competition and resulting de industrialisation and imports.

When what’s needed is neither the EU version of ‘free trade’ nor the global free market version.It’s now a race for survival as to which of the developed nations decides first to go for a protectionist trade policy in which the aim is to minimise imports and/or stop the exploitation of cheap labour.

As for the EU that was always about the appeasement of Heath’s fears of Germany kicking off again if we didn’t submit to EU Federalist economic blackmail.By an ideologically Federalist Party in the form of the Cons.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

3300John:
Hiya…although it hurts to say i think stay in is the answer… its a case of better you know than what might happen.
if we say NO. we could be left to rot…

Define ‘left to rot’.In an environment where we pay a fortune as a net contributor to a trade scam that puts us in a trade deficit situation since we joined it and in which to add insult to injury we have to hand over the sovereignty of the country’s government to majority Federal vote with no right of opt out or veto.

1. Provide evidence that GB is a net contributor to the EU. A link to a reliable source, not streams of waffle like usual.
2. We are in a trade deficit situation because the European-made goods are superior to the British ones. Any observer of the vehicle industry would know that that has been the case since the 1950s, possibly earlier.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

3300John:
Hiya…although it hurts to say i think stay in is the answer… its a case of better you know than what might happen.
if we say NO. we could be left to rot…

Define ‘left to rot’.In an environment where we pay a fortune as a net contributor to a trade scam that puts us in a trade deficit situation since we joined it and in which to add insult to injury we have to hand over the sovereignty of the country’s government to majority Federal vote with no right of opt out or veto.

1. Provide evidence that GB is a net contributor to the EU. A link to a reliable source, not streams of waffle like usual.
2. We are in a trade deficit situation because the European-made goods are superior to the British ones. Any observer of the vehicle industry would know that that has been the case since the 1950s, possibly earlier.

If European ( German ) made ‘goods’ are/were ‘superior’ to British ( given the same or possibly even less production and development budget ) then you’d now be speaking German under a 1,000 year Reich anyway.At least so long as your face fits.

As for us not being a net contributor to a Federalist scam for the privilege of being in a trade deficit to please ze Germans.It seems obvious that the conditions which you’ve applied just amount to the typical in campaign propaganda of not accepting any evidence that doesn’t suit the EU in campaign view.

telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina … -know.html

‘‘Britain 2nd largest net contributor’’.

The difference being that we don’t have the luxury of Germany’s trade surplus with the EU to pay for it.While even if we did that would still effectively mean that British workers would be paying taxes to the EU for the privilege of going to work.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:

1. Provide evidence that GB is a net contributor to the EU. A link to a reliable source, not streams of waffle like usual.
2. We are in a trade deficit situation because the European-made goods are superior to the British ones. Any observer of the vehicle industry would know that that has been the case since the 1950s, possibly earlier.

If European ( German ) made ‘goods’ are/were ‘superior’ to British ( given the same or possibly even less production and development budget ) then you’d now be speaking German under a 1,000 year Reich anyway.At least so long as your face fits.

As for us not being a net contributor to a Federalist scam for the privilege of being in a trade deficit to please ze Germans.It seems obvious that the conditions which you’ve applied just amount to the typical in campaign propaganda of not accepting any evidence that doesn’t suit the EU in campaign view.

Errr… none of that answers either of the above simple questions. Have another go. Try putting the answers after the number corresponding to the question, like so:

1. Blah blah blah.
2. Blah etc.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:

1. Provide evidence that GB is a net contributor to the EU. A link to a reliable source, not streams of waffle like usual.
2. We are in a trade deficit situation because the European-made goods are superior to the British ones. Any observer of the vehicle industry would know that that has been the case since the 1950s, possibly earlier.

If European ( German ) made ‘goods’ are/were ‘superior’ to British ( given the same or possibly even less production and development budget ) then you’d now be speaking German under a 1,000 year Reich anyway.At least so long as your face fits.

As for us not being a net contributor to a Federalist scam for the privilege of being in a trade deficit to please ze Germans.It seems obvious that the conditions which you’ve applied just amount to the typical in campaign propaganda of not accepting any evidence that doesn’t suit the EU in campaign view.

Errr… none of that answers either of the above simple questions. Have another go. Try putting the answers after the number corresponding to the question, like so:

1. Blah blah blah.
2. Blah etc.

I’ve told you the answers as above.

(1) Yes if you want to compare an Allegro with a Merc 500 then the Germans obviously made ‘better’ products.Which is more or less the argument which the pro EU side uses to justify paying a fortune for the privilege of being in a trade deficit.

(2) Which part of Britain is the 2nd highest net contributor to the tune of 10bn as of 2013 and probably more for 2014 don’t you understand.Or should that be don’t want to understand.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:
(2) Which part of Britain is the 2nd highest net contributor to the tune of 10bn as of 2013 and probably more for 2014 don’t you understand.Or should that be don’t want to understand.

According to the Telegraph article you linked above (after editing your initially vacuous post), Germany’s net contribution to the EU was about 50% greater than GB’s. How do you square that with your earlier rant about pro-German conspiracies, or whatever drivel it was?

[bewick]

To sum up then ! When the UK was eventually allowed to join the “Common Market” membership was “sold” to us as just being part of a European trading group ! However it has turned, or is steadily turning, into both a Political and Monetary Superstate,I wonder if the devious ■■■■■■■■ had spelled out the true aims of the “EU” at the time of the first referendum in '75 they would have got a YES vote,doubtful I would say ! Cheers Bewick.

[lawrence_dunbar]

Bewick:
To sum up then ! When the UK was eventually allowed to join the “Common Market” membership was “sold” to us as just being part of a European trading group ! However it has turned, or is steadily turning, into both a Political and Monetary Superstate,I wonder if the devious [zb] had spelled out the true aims of the “EU” at the time of the first referendum in '75 they would have got a YES vote,doubtful I would say ! Cheers Bewick.

I agree with you on that point Dennis, Of course the way it was put to us at that time made it look good, And its all gone ■■■■ up IMOO, where will It all end I wonder, I think a lot of the younger generation haven’t got a clue as to what is happening these days, So I will retired to my bed with a couple of large Glenmorangies just to keep me sane Eh, Hope you are keeping well my friend, Regards Larry.