ERF-NGC-European:
The Fuller 13-sp was offered optionally in the NGC as an RT9513 or an RTO9513. robert
Can you provide any confirmation which would now change the spec options from what I thought I’d read previously that the NGC was only available with direct top RT Fullers and that even the 13 speed RT option was only listed for the 290 version anyway not 335 ?.
While if you are now saying that the RTO was available in it after all whether 9 or 13 speed ? then that would obviously suggest some even more confused thinking going on at ERF in that surely they’d have specced the RTO not RT and preferably 13 speed at that,in the demonstrator used in the road test to optimise its fuel consumption figures.Bearing in mind that running on the governor at 55 mph obviously mean’t that the supposed higher final drive gearing,referred to by ERF’s designer/s,didn’t happen.Having definitely unarguably also counted out putting the obviously more efficient after cooled NTA ■■■■■■■ in it that regard.
While your reference now,to the RTO being an option,seems to contradict both what ERF themselves said and their ridiculous reasons for it and what you’d said above previously.
DEANB:
Looks like pountains tilted ! Message received from chap that took pics at Cossington Commercials.
0
The new cab fitted to the original mountings; the chassis was extended forward to provide the mountings for the steps■■?
Dont know the message i got back is the one i posted. But if i was fitting a new cab to a lorry i would
definately want it to tilt ■■ Robert those MW7 cabs, did the engine covers come off inside the cab ?
If they didnt then i would think it definately tilted as certain things like the tappets you need access
from above ! I had an old F6 Volvo when i started with a luton built over the cab which did not tilt but
the whole engine cover use to come off so you could get to the engine for certain maintenance ! You
are not going to have a lorry where you have to either drop the engine out below or take the bloody
cab off to replace gaskets etc !
Agreed. It must have been a cab shell then. The 7MW cab was a LHD design. The steering wheel in the old MDC would have been different, along with the gearstick and a lot more besides. Robert
ERF-NGC-European:
The Fuller 13-sp was offered optionally in the NGC as an RT9513 or an RTO9513. robert
Can you provide any confirmation which would now change the spec options from what I thought I’d read previously that the NGC was only available with direct top RT Fullers and that even the 13 speed RT option was only listed for the 290 version anyway not 335 ?.
While if you are now saying that the RTO was available in it after all whether 9 or 13 speed ? then that would obviously suggest some even more confused thinking going on at ERF in that surely they’d have specced the RTO not RT and preferably 13 speed at that,in the demonstrator used in the road test to optimise its fuel consumption figures.Bearing in mind that running on the governor at 55 mph obviously mean’t that the supposed higher final drive gearing,referred to by ERF’s designer/s,didn’t happen.Having definitely unarguably also counted out putting the obviously more efficient after cooled NTA ■■■■■■■ in it that regard.
While your reference now,to the RTO being an option,seems to contradict both what ERF themselves said and their ridiculous reasons for it and what you’d said above previously.
I’ve said nothing new. Although you could have an RT9513 or an RTO9513 there were, as far as I know, almost no takers for 13-speeders. Clearly, the operators of the day didn’t follow your passion for them. Six went out to Trans Arabia brand new. The remaining few single units went to Eyckmans in Belgian (RTO 9513 retro-fitted by the dealer), Schaap in Holland, Tony Jones (Vijore) in UK, De Meulemeester in Belgium and possibly Collin in France. So that’s four, then. John Simmons had his retro-fitted with one, as did Phil Horridge. Well, there’s another two. As you can see, they voted with their wallets. Robert
In the total absence of any further evidence to support various claims concerning the Cauvas NGC, I see absolutely no point in standing back any longer and I therefore feel entitled to re-enter the fray and speak as I find.
I know this thread is not about Book 3 but I am making every effort to avoid speculative news in its pages and to that end I will avoid any mention of 8MW cabs until I know for certain their relevance. Furthermore, in pursuit of actual (as opposed to speculative) news of the Cauvas NGC for the benefit of future transport historians, all I can safely say about it at this point in time, is this:
Their 4x2 unit later appeared in 6x4 configuration so it was either converted to 6x4 or its cab and identity passed to a donor non-NGC 6x4 chassis.
ERF-NGC-European:
I’ve said nothing new. Although you could have an RT9513 or an RTO9513 there were, as far as I know, almost no takers for 13-speeders. Clearly, the operators of the day didn’t follow your passion for them. Six went out to Trans Arabia brand new. The remaining few single units went to Eyckmans in Belgian (RTO 9513 retro-fitted by the dealer), Schaap in Holland, Tony Jones (Vijore) in UK, De Meulemeester in Belgium and possibly Collin in France. So that’s four, then. John Simmons had his retro-fitted with one, as did Phil Horridge. Well, there’s another two. As you can see, they voted with their wallets. Robert
Firstly I’ve seen no actual details here of any factory fit RTO listed option for the NGC ?.As opposed to the clear confirmation in the article which clearly states that it’s designer/s actually deliberately counted out that option for the reasons stated related to unfounded fears of prop shaft over speed.Which you seemed to agree with in the previous post.
While like the 6 x 4 heavy haulage issue,the fact that people were probably,agreed,retro fitting RTO boxes,preferably 13 speed,actually seems to confirm that ERF had messed up with its marketing and production policies.Bearing in mind it’s not how few carried out such conversions it’s how many walked away and bought something like a DAF 2800 instead. On that note it isn’t a case of any ‘passion’ for any particular spec on my part it’s just the fact that an RTO spec 13 speed would obviously provide the essential much tighter control over the operating rev range of the ■■■■■■■ motor and thereby optimise its fuel consumption figures.Which in the case of the trade media road test example could foreseeably be the difference between gaining or losing loads of potential sales.
The conclusion being that given the right aftercooled engine spec and a standard fit 13 speed RTO driveline spec that road test example would unarguably have provided an even higher average speed for a lower average fuel consumption.Not to mention also having the 9 speed direct drive box and a 6 x 4 axle configuration in the options list to meet the requirements of the heavy haulage sector.
DEANB:
Looks like pountains tilted ! Message received from chap that took pics at Cossington Commercials.
0
The new cab fitted to the original mountings; the chassis was extended forward to provide the mountings for the steps■■?
Dont know the message i got back is the one i posted. But if i was fitting a new cab to a lorry i would
definately want it to tilt ■■ Robert those MW7 cabs, did the engine covers come off inside the cab ?
If they didnt then i would think it definately tilted as certain things like the tappets you need access
from above ! I had an old F6 Volvo when i started with a luton built over the cab which did not tilt but
the whole engine cover use to come off so you could get to the engine for certain maintenance ! You
are not going to have a lorry where you have to either drop the engine out below or take the bloody
cab off to replace gaskets etc !
Maybe the 8MW was a kit containing the chassis extension, to allow the tilt hinge to be placed in the correct position relative to the axle? In all other regards, the cab itself would be identical to a 7MW.
DEANB:
Looks like pountains tilted ! Message received from chap that took pics at Cossington Commercials.
0
The new cab fitted to the original mountings; the chassis was extended forward to provide the mountings for the steps■■?
Dont know the message i got back is the one i posted. But if i was fitting a new cab to a lorry i would
definately want it to tilt ■■ Robert those MW7 cabs, did the engine covers come off inside the cab ?
If they didnt then i would think it definately tilted as certain things like the tappets you need access
from above ! I had an old F6 Volvo when i started with a luton built over the cab which did not tilt but
the whole engine cover use to come off so you could get to the engine for certain maintenance ! You
are not going to have a lorry where you have to either drop the engine out below or take the bloody
cab off to replace gaskets etc !
Maybe the 8MW was a kit containing the chassis extension, to allow the tilt hinge to be placed in the correct position relative to the axle? In all other regards, the cab itself would be identical to a 7MW.
ERF-NGC-European:
I’ve said nothing new. Although you could have an RT9513 or an RTO9513 there were, as far as I know, almost no takers for 13-speeders. Clearly, the operators of the day didn’t follow your passion for them. Six went out to Trans Arabia brand new. The remaining few single units went to Eyckmans in Belgian (RTO 9513 retro-fitted by the dealer), Schaap in Holland, Tony Jones (Vijore) in UK, De Meulemeester in Belgium and possibly Collin in France. So that’s four, then. John Simmons had his retro-fitted with one, as did Phil Horridge. Well, there’s another two. As you can see, they voted with their wallets. Robert
Firstly I’ve seen no actual details here of any factory fit RTO listed option for the NGC ?
Those details have been posted on here several times. Below are two examples of the same brochure page from different years (of production run), one showing the RT 9513 option and the other (earlier) the RTO 9513 option. They appear at the bottom of the right-hand column. Robert
[zb]
anorak:
Maybe the 8MW was a kit containing the chassis extension, to allow the tilt hinge to be placed in the correct position relative to the axle? In all other regards, the cab itself would be identical to a 7MW.
Interesting theory. Robert
What we have so far:
8MW was an aftermarket replacement for non-7MW cabs (we are assuming).
The chassis which Dean mentions had a tilting cab, after it was converted. It had previously had a 4/6MW cab.
I conclude (probably erroneously LOL) that the difference between 7 and 8MW was that the latter was adapted to fit 3/4/5/6MW chassis. Both cabs were tilters. Was the 8MW exclusively a 4/6MW replacement?- that is the question.
[zb]
anorak:
Maybe the 8MW was a kit containing the chassis extension, to allow the tilt hinge to be placed in the correct position relative to the axle? In all other regards, the cab itself would be identical to a 7MW.
Interesting theory. Robert
What we have so far:
8MW was an aftermarket replacement for non-7MW cabs (we are assuming).
The chassis which Dean mentions had a tilting cab, after it was converted. It had previously had a 4/6MW cab.
I conclude (probably erroneously LOL) that the difference between 7 and 8MW was that the latter was adapted to fit 3/4/5/6MW chassis. Both cabs were tilters. Was the 8MW exclusively a 4/6MW replacement?- that is the question.
Firstly, we don’t know yet that UGE 852R’s replacement cab actually tilted. Its 6MW certainly didn’t. Dean is looking into that today. As this Pountains vehicle was RHD (and they didn’t do RHD 7MWs, remember) I strongly suspect that this was a cab shell only and a lot of creative messing about occurred. The only other loose cab situation we know about is Loste’s pacific and again, as this was such a different vehicle I suspect that a 7MW cab - possibly one of Loste’s own (as they had two NGCs) - was heavily modified.
The other potential situation is A-J’s suggestion that Cauvas might have used the 7MW cab from their 4x2 NGC and transferred it, along with the number plate, to Hye’s 6x4 unit that previously had a 3MW cab - which of course was set forward, unlike the 6MW on Pountains unit. But that’s still a 7MW cab rather than an 8MW.
To sum up we appear to be dealing with 7MW cabs here, rather than factory modified ones. I’ll be surprised if any of them turns out to tilt (other than the Cauvas unit if it can be shown that it had a Volvo back end!).
ERF-NGC-European:
I’ve said nothing new. Although you could have an RT9513 or an RTO9513 there were, as far as I know, almost no takers for 13-speeders. Clearly, the operators of the day didn’t follow your passion for them. Six went out to Trans Arabia brand new. The remaining few single units went to Eyckmans in Belgian (RTO 9513 retro-fitted by the dealer), Schaap in Holland, Tony Jones (Vijore) in UK, De Meulemeester in Belgium and possibly Collin in France. So that’s four, then. John Simmons had his retro-fitted with one, as did Phil Horridge. Well, there’s another two. As you can see, they voted with their wallets. Robert
Firstly I’ve seen no actual details here of any factory fit RTO listed option for the NGC ?
Those details have been posted on here several times. Below are two examples of the same brochure page from different years (of production run), one showing the RT 9513 option and the other (earlier) the RTO 9513 option. They appear at the bottom of the right-hand column. Robert
10
Thanks for that clarification Robert.But if I’ve got it right is that saying the RTO options were only available early on in the production run then changed to RT only later ?.Which would obviously fit in with the designer’s comments that the NGC was subject to such a change.While also seeming to confirm that the 13 speed was never an option with the 335 whether RTO or RT regardless ?.
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
While as I’ve said an after cooled NTA engined and 13 speed RTO equipped,vehicle would have been a game changer in terms of its efficiency v the worst possible of all worlds combination of non after cooled 335 and direct drive 9 speed box.In which case it would be fair to say that ERF didn’t seem to have a clue in making the best of the potential contained in the NGC.
Carryfast:
Thanks for that clarification Robert.But if I’ve got it right is that saying the RTO options were only available early on in the production run then changed to RT only later ?.Which would obviously fit in with the designer’s comments that the NGC was subject to such a change.While also seeming to confirm that the 13 speed was never an option with the 335 whether RTO or RT regardless ?.
It appears to be the case that RTO then became an RT option as you suggest. And you’re right about the 335 / 13-sp (RT or RTO) option apparently not offered; though I add the rider that the brochures don’t say so and I obtained this info from drivers/mechanics who report that earlier 13-sp Fullers didn’t like the torque-load from the 335 so ERF matched them to 290s (this was discussed at some length early in the thread and included your input). Also, we know that the Belgian importer/dealer did retro-fit a 335-powered NGC with an RTO 9513 when new (Eyckmanns/Corbishley unit). Robert
Carryfast:
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
One of their field engineers informed me that ERF’s demonstrators were considered to show the model at its best and were fitted with 335s and 9-sp Fullers. They were very popular with drivers so they must have got something right. Robert
Carryfast:
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
One of their field engineers informed me that ERF’s demonstrators were considered to show the model at its best and were fitted with 335s and 9-sp Fullers. They were very popular with drivers so they must have got something right. Robert
To be fair we’ll never know what the road test results would have been had they instead gone for NTA and 13 speed RTO.It’s my guess probably sensational enough in the day to leave its competition,looking silly.
On that note non after cooled 335 engine spec and 9 speed RT box,when the after cooled NTA and 13 speed RTO box were all available,seems like a strange definition of ‘showing it to its best’ in that regard.Also bearing in mind that none of what’s being discussed here would have been or is a matter of hindsight.
Carryfast:
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
One of their field engineers informed me that ERF’s demonstrators were considered to show the model at its best and were fitted with 335s and 9-sp Fullers. They were very popular with drivers so they must have got something right. Robert
Agree with Robert 100%. Every advert i have seen for a new NGC for sale,has quoted the 9 speed fuller !
Like he says the 13 speed was an option.
Carryfast:
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
One of their field engineers informed me that ERF’s demonstrators were considered to show the model at its best and were fitted with 335s and 9-sp Fullers. They were very popular with drivers so they must have got something right. Robert
To be fair we’ll never know what the road test results would have been had they instead gone for NTA and 13 speed RTO.It’s my guess probably sensational enough in the day to leave its competition,looking silly.
On that note non after cooled 335 engine spec and 9 speed RT box,when the after cooled NTA and 13 speed RTO box were all available,seems like a strange definition of ‘showing it to its best’ in that regard.Also bearing in mind that none of what’s being discussed here would have been or is a matter of hindsight.
Morning CF!
It’s a pity they didn’t employ you to lead the apparently dysfunctional engineering board at BL; then at least we would have had a 13-sp Fuller equipped Austin Princess amphibious 6x6 cabriolet with a Merlin engine in it . That would have given the grandmothers of current ‘Chelsea tractor’ drivers in Surry’s leafy lanes something to cut their teeth on and hopefully pass skills down to the incompetent school-run mafia of today. You’d have been an instant hero with the great unwashed, but ‘Flat Stanley’s’ mum would have damned you for sewages because she would have been rendered penniless in the absence of any reason for anyone to write about her son (he not having been squished by a Range Rover). You’d have been crowned in Guildford on the first of May and the headlines in the local rag, reporting the resultant traffic congestion would have read: MAY KING HAVOC IN SURREY.
Carryfast:
To be fair we’ll never know what the road test results would have been had they instead gone for NTA and 13 speed RTO.It’s my guess probably sensational enough in the day to leave its competition,looking silly.
On that note non after cooled 335 engine spec and 9 speed RT box,when the after cooled NTA and 13 speed RTO box were all available,seems like a strange definition of ‘showing it to its best’ in that regard.Also bearing in mind that none of what’s being discussed here would have been or is a matter of hindsight.
Morning CF!
It’s a pity they didn’t employ you to lead the apparently dysfunctional engineering board at BL; then at least we would have had a 13-sp Fuller equipped Austin Princess amphibious 6x6 cabriolet with a Merlin engine in it . That would have given the grandmothers of current ‘Chelsea tractor’ drivers in Surry’s leafy lanes something to cut their teeth on and hopefully pass skills down to the incompetent school-run mafia of today. You’d have been an instant hero with the great unwashed, but ‘Flat Stanley’s’ mum would have damned you for sewages because she would have been rendered penniless in the absence of any reason for anyone to write about her son (he not having been squished by a Range Rover). You’d have been crowned in Guildford on the first of May and the headlines in the local rag, reporting the resultant traffic congestion would have read: MAY KING HAVOC IN SURREY.
Robert
To be fair it’s a bit of a leap from using the NTA engine in the NGC with a 13 speed RTO fuller instead of obsolete inefficient 335 and under geared,wider ratio 9 speed RT,to all of that.
While the headlines might have gone more along the lines of Surrey school leaver shows inept ERF management how to build a truck. As for Leyland,having already effectively thrown away their fortunes to DAF,leaving themselves with the Marathon v 2800,they were already well beyond any help from me in that regard.Although the idea of putting a 4 litre 32 valve V8 based on the Dolomite Sprint motor in the Stag and the 2.5 saloon,instead of going for the SD1 and stroking the XJ 12 to 6 litres and putting a manual box in it at that point might have done wonders for the car side by killing the BMW competition in Surrey at least.Again none of that being a case of hindsight on my part.
Carryfast:
Also bearing in mind that it was without doubt a 9 speed RT box equipped truck that ended up being provided as the road test demonstrator example and thereby the definitive product from a trade media and therefore customer point of view.Which leaves the obvious question if an RTO box option was available at that point then surely that’s what ERF would have chosen to put in it.
One of their field engineers informed me that ERF’s demonstrators were considered to show the model at its best and were fitted with 335s and 9-sp Fullers. They were very popular with drivers so they must have got something right. Robert
To be fair we’ll never know what the road test results would have been had they instead gone for NTA and 13 speed RTO.It’s my guess probably sensational enough in the day to leave its competition,looking silly.
On that note non after cooled 335 engine spec and 9 speed RT box,when the after cooled NTA and 13 speed RTO box were all available,seems like a strange definition of ‘showing it to its best’ in that regard.Also bearing in mind that none of what’s being discussed here would have been or is a matter of hindsight.
Morning CF!
It’s a pity they didn’t employ you to lead the apparently dysfunctional engineering board at BL; then at least we would have had a 13-sp Fuller equipped Austin Princess amphibious 6x6 cabriolet with a Merlin engine in it . That would have given the grandmothers of current ‘Chelsea tractor’ drivers in Surry’s leafy lanes something to cut their teeth on and hopefully pass skills down to the incompetent school-run mafia of today. You’d have been an instant hero with the great unwashed, but ‘Flat Stanley’s’ mum would have damned you for sewages because she would have been rendered penniless in the absence of any reason for anyone to write about her son (he not having been squished by a Range Rover). You’d have been crowned in Guildford on the first of May and the headlines in the local rag, reporting the resultant traffic congestion would have read: MAY KING HAVOC IN SURREY.
I have now heard back from transport P.Brame regarding the NGC that they operated.
He has confirmed that they only operated the one,and at this moment in time he cannot find any
more photos of the truck or a registration number. However he is going to contact me should he
find either.
He has also told me that the truck had a bad accident and was written off and they broke the
vehicle for spares as they also operated two ■■■■■■■ powered Ford Transcontinentals.
On that note it isn’t a case of any ‘passion’ for any particular spec on my part it’s just the fact that an RTO spec 13 speed would obviously provide the essential much tighter control over the operating rev range of the ■■■■■■■ motor and thereby optimise its fuel consumption figures.Which in the case of the trade media road test example could foreseeably be the difference between gaining or losing loads of potential sales.
. That would have given the grandmothers of current ‘Chelsea tractor’ drivers in Surry’s leafy lanes something to cut their teeth on and hopefully pass skills down to the incompetent school-run mafia of today. You’d have been an instant hero with the great unwashed, but ‘Flat Stanley’s’ mum would have damned you for sewages because she would have been rendered penniless in the absence of any reason for anyone to write about her son (he not having been squished by a Range Rover). You’d have been crowned in Guildford on the first of May 
and the headlines in the local rag, reporting the resultant traffic congestion would have read: MAY KING HAVOC IN SURREY. 
