Election 2015 exit poll

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
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BillyHunt:
You don’t have any actual proof that they intended to rig anything, it’s just that your, not only a euro sceptic, but a government sceptic, assuming the worst at all times. On that point, why, after all your years of watching different parties come & go,many no doubt getting shafted by them all at some point, do you think ukip would be any different, assuming they ever get into a position to actually do anything worthwhile.
Given what you’ve put in the last paragraph I would say you fit the description very well.

Firstly the report actually stated that the idea of allowing the EU immigrant vote in any EU Brexit referendum was obviously on the agenda and it took some sort of ‘confrontaion’ between ‘Eurosceptic MP’s’ and ‘ministers’ to get the agenda changed.Which suggests a ‘bit’ more than just a wild ‘assumption’ on my part.

As for UKIP no one can possibly know wether they would match their stated policies with action in power without them being given the chance.As I’ve said personally I think the idea of a re invented Labour Party,which recognises the contradictions in its present policies v the interests of the domestic working class and the issue of sovereignty v Federalism would be just as relevant as UKIP.However the fact is UKIP is the only Party that,so far,gets close in that regard.IE the issue is more one of stated policy and ideology more than trust at this stage.However it is a reasonable bet that there wouldn’t be much point in UKIP’s stated aims and efforts in that regard so far if it wasn’t actually unquestionably committed to those stated aims. :bulb:

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Every party has stated aims, the trouble is everyone’s route to get to that stated aim is different. The conservatives are pro EU, except the ones that are euro sceptic, making the job a lot harder, deals have to be made to get things done. ukip would be no different in that respect, they would have to give up some, if not all, of their objectives to get anywhere. Thereby watering down the reasons people want to support them in the first place. Currently their aim is to get the UK out of the EU, what happens to them if,
A. We vote to stay in. Renders them pretty much useless.
B. We vote to get out. Job done, what next?
That’s the problem with single issue parties, all their efforts will be going towards their stated aim with nothing being said about whatever else they stand for. As a party trying to go forward it looks like a lose lose situation to me.

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The issue of Parties not doing what they say that they stand for is probably one of the main reasons why people stay at home and not choose to vote.Which then leads on to the question of the difference between a Party making a structural change in its ideological position because it chooses to.As opposed to just doing it to gain political tactical advantage according to whatever way the latest polls are moving.Being that realistically Eurosceptic anti Federalist Conservative/Unionist is a contradiction which would logically be expected to result in a move to UKIP.

Which in this case translates as probably the latter in the case of an ideologically Unionist Party making what seems to be a large scale move towards anti Federalism. :bulb:

While,with the exception of its UK descriptor,UKIP is an ideologically anti Federalist Party with obviously no expected logical possible compromise amongst its MP’s etc in regard to that.

While what I’ve described in the case of Labour would arguably be a case of the former.IE a structural change in ideology away from Socialism and Federalism towards a real Nationalist agenda that is in the interests of the domestic workforce it is supposed to represent.IE English Labour Party. :bulb:

As for the question of the future for UKIP assuming either an in or out referendum.There are arguably still sufficient differences,in regard to issues like its global warmist sceptic energy policy for example,to allow it to stand out from other Parties ( so far ).

While in the case of the former that would arguably depend on firstly on wether an in vote was decided on non English votes from the point of view of UKIP carrying on the fight on an English only basis.Bearing in mind its anti Federalist position.While obviously the the same would apply vice versa regards the SNP assuming an out vote.

IE the UK in/out referendum won’t be the end of either the issue of the breakup of the UK ‘or’ the EU or the respective policy content contained within the new small Parties like the SNP and UKIP.It will just be the start regardless of which way the vote goes.In which case both the SNP ‘and’ UKIP can arguably only become more relevant in that environment.Especially as I said if either England or Scotland are dragged somewhere that one or the other doesn’t want to be on the say so of one or the other.On that basis Scotland probably won’t accept an out vote based on an English majority.Just as the English have a right not to be taken further into the Federalist scam on a majority dependent on a non English vote. :bulb:

telegraph.co.uk/news/politic … endum.html

Which then leaves the question why are the in campaign so keen now to allow the voting age for the referendum to be lowered to 16.When I don’t remember them calling for same in 1975. :imp: :unamused:

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Hilarious, is that the same ukip that, other than their one aim, don’t have any policies they could bring in without the odd change. And yes, they would bend if getting some form of power was the result, they just don’t have any bargaining chips currently.
Still no interest in labour, but if you think they will do a 180 and join with ukip you need your bumps felt.
The referendum will decide if we are in or out & will have to be accepted by all regardless of wether any party doesn’t like it. Otherwise we end up going down the EU route of, keep voting until we get the result we want, something the jocks are now trying to have a go at. What’s changed in Scotland in the last few months to warrant another referendum? Yes the snp got bigger but that hasn’t changed people’s lifestyles in 3 weeks.

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BillyHunt:
Hilarious, is that the same ukip that, other than their one aim, don’t have any policies they could bring in without the odd change. And yes, they would bend if getting some form of power was the result, they just don’t have any bargaining chips currently.
Still no interest in labour, but if you think they will do a 180 and join with ukip you need your bumps felt.
The referendum will decide if we are in or out & will have to be accepted by all regardless of wether any party doesn’t like it. Otherwise we end up going down the EU route of, keep voting until we get the result we want, something the jocks are now trying to have a go at. What’s changed in Scotland in the last few months to warrant another referendum? Yes the snp got bigger but that hasn’t changed people’s lifestyles in 3 weeks.

Firstly my idea that Labour ‘should’ move towards UKIP isn’t the same thing as saying it ‘will’ move.

While ironically it shouldn’t be surprising that issue of Federalism v anti Federalism isn’t an argument which can ever be sorted out by democratic process.Being that no one has the right to give away the sovereignty of the nation and Federalism is basically an inherently un democratic form of government.

Even more ironically in this case that argument translating as the SNP standing on an anti Federalist agenda to create a pro Federalist vote result. :unamused:

On that note no whatever the result one side or the other won’t ever accept it.Rightly in the case of the out campaign and typically true to form in the case of the in campaign.

So far as usual it being the in campaign that is taking a typically Federalist stance in trying to ‘arrange’ the vote structure to whatever it perceives as being in its best interests.Wether it be calling for the reduction in the voting age,which it obviously didn’t want to do in 1975 because of the difference in attitudes of potential young voters of my age in the day.Or allowing EU immigrants to vote.Or the SNP trying to take advantage of the selective use of anti Federalism when it suits it to create a pro Federalist result for Scotland.

IE the inevitable result being that,assuming an in vote,either UKIP would/should arguably,hopefully,( rightly ) continue the fight on the grounds that no one should have the right to vote to give away the sovereignty of the country.

While an out vote will at least result in the SNP calling for a new independence referendum and/or possibly the EU as usual true to form calling for the vote to be re held until it gets the answer it wants.

Realistically Cameron and the in campaign either have the option of letting Scotland go and all those who want to remain part of the EU move to Scotland.Then take what remains of the ‘UK’ out without referendum.

Or end up with an ungovernable mess split between the pro Federalist agenda v the anti Federalist one.Bearing in mind what ( should be ) the supremacy of sovereign national government and the fact that no one had/has the right to vote that supremacy away as happened as of 1975.

Ironically that argument applying contradictory to each other and at the same time in the case of the anti UK but pro EU SNP agenda.Which would want to secede from the UK Federation,so that it can remain part of the EU one,regardless. :open_mouth: :confused: :unamused:

While even more ironically in that case it is possible to foresee a situation,at some time in the long term future,of future generations of Scots,calling on support of the English.Having found themselves in a war of secession from the EU and cursing their so called ‘Nationalist’ forebears for putting them into the situation.

Just as could be the case in England assuming we don’t get out now while we’ve got the chance. :bulb:

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Well in or out it will have to be accepted, and it will have to be accepted by the United Kingdom. It’s ridiculous to have the likes of the pro eu snp saying if it’s an out vote we want another referendum, they had one, the people spoke, this EU referendum was already on the cards when they had it. Same with ukip, they want us out of the EU, that’s fine, but if it goes against them that’s just tough on them, they won’t have anywhere to go.

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BillyHunt:
Well in or out it will have to be accepted, and it will have to be accepted by the United Kingdom. It’s ridiculous to have the likes of the pro eu snp saying if it’s an out vote we want another referendum, they had one, the people spoke, this EU referendum was already on the cards when they had it. Same with ukip, they want us out of the EU, that’s fine, but if it goes against them that’s just tough on them, they won’t have anywhere to go.

Firstly it seems obvious that something will have to give between the contradiction of an SNP majority and no to independence referendum vote.

While the logic of UKIP and the out campaign giving up because of an in referendum vote obviously contradicts the fact that we’ve had an in vote in 1975 and it hasn’t been accepted.While ‘if’ your logic applied there never would have been a UKIP or any Euro Sceptic argument after 1975. :bulb:

The fact is,as I said,the issue of giving away sovereignty can’t be decided by democratic process.Which is why historically the argument between Federalism v anti Federalism never goes away and usually degenerates into civil unrest/rebellion/war.‘Unless’ it is settled by way of non democratic compromise which recognises the supremacy of local/national sovereignty over Federalism. :bulb:

With the exceptions to that rule usually involving financial inducements such as the former Yugoslav secessionist states and Ireland for example fighting to leave one Federation only then to join another. :unamused: Perceived financial benefit probably also explaining the contradiction in the SNP’s wish to leave the UK in order to stay in the mire of the EU.

The common link in all cases being that where a secessionist anti Federalist cause exists it ( rightly ) never goes away and always ‘eventually’ wins out.Possibly even in the case of the US example which was one of the rare cases where your ideas were taken to their logical conclusion by Lincoln in 1861-65 and won out.Suggest you check out the casualty count and price of that ‘conclusion’. :frowning: Bearing in mind that the anti federalist cause was never actually crushed even in that case. :bulb:

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Firstly the Scottish had their chance & voted accordingly, the beating of a pretty poor Labour Party won’t get them a new referendum anytime soon. Cameron has already said its a non starter, as I said before the scots knew their was an EU referendum coming, they know the snp are pro Europe, they voted for them so from that, it would appear,mthe scots are happy with their lot from the EU.
There will always be some who don’t get what they want regarding Europe. We went in, we had a referendum, the majority voted to stay. That was 40 years ago & plenty has changed since then, some good & some bad. After this one their will be some that are unhappy with the result but that’s what happens in a democratic society. You cannot please everyone. Even your beloved ukip had some that were unhappy with Nigel’s change of heart, they aren’t there now of course, but that’s life.

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BillyHunt:
Firstly the Scottish had their chance & voted accordingly, the beating of a pretty poor Labour Party won’t get them a new referendum anytime soon. Cameron has already said its a non starter, as I said before the scots knew their was an EU referendum coming, they know the snp are pro Europe, they voted for them so from that, it would appear,mthe scots are happy with their lot from the EU.
There will always be some who don’t get what they want regarding Europe. We went in, we had a referendum, the majority voted to stay. That was 40 years ago & plenty has changed since then, some good & some bad. After this one their will be some that are unhappy with the result but that’s what happens in a democratic society. You cannot please everyone. Even your beloved ukip had some that were unhappy with Nigel’s change of heart, they aren’t there now of course, but that’s life.

As I said the mark of a Unionist/Federalist and Federalism is the idea that secession is conditional on the permission of the government of the Federation.As opposed to the idea of self determination/Nationalism or at most a Confederation based on sovereignty of each member in a much looser form of Union.In which case your observations are obviously based on the former and therefore a typically dictatorial draconian irrelevance from the point of view of the latter.IE as in the case of Ireland the argument is then just one of any state can secede from any so called ‘Union’ any time it wants to and unconditionally and without the permission of any zb Unionist dictator like Cameron ( or Churchill or Lincoln ).

It seems obvious that the argument has reached the usual ultimate point in history of the former v the latter.My own credentials in that regard being at least some historic family link to the Nationalist v Unionist cause to the point of giving a life and the breakup of a whole family as result,to the former. :frowning: On that basis I’d suggest that you’re setting the UK Union on yet another Unionist v Nationalist collision course this time with the Scots when it seems obvious that it is time to let the UK Union go.

Let alone,as I said,condemning future generations of Brits to a possible potential war of secession with the EU.Having by your logic committed them to a Federation which they would most likely have to go to war with to leave. :unamused:

On that note I’d suggest that UKIP could have done no better than to at least keep Farage in his place.Being that his anti Federalist credentials seem as good as any Brit politician in history.As for Sturgeon and the SNP it is anyone’s guess how they can possibly sort out the contradiction between their Nationalist stance regarding the UK v their support for the EU.It is my guess that Cameron’s main aim,in trying to cling on to a UK ‘Union’ that has already lost its credibility and is effectively finished,is all about using that contradiction to help him keep us tied to the EU. :bulb: :unamused:

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As I’ve said it would seem that the scots are happy with being in the EU, they voted for the snp after all whose preference is to stay in. Now, if we vote to leave they say they want another referendum, does this mean that every time someone gets upset with the way things are going we are off to the ballot box? I think not. Cameron has made his position clear, labour want their seats back so they won’t be onside.
Do you really believe that the vast majority of voters think of anything but their own situation when voting? It’s my opinion that most wouldn’t have a clue about federalism v unionism, they’re more interested in “what’s in it for me” do you think the likes of DP sit & ponder wether an out vote will, or at least could, lead to secession, a break up of the Union, a war with the EU? No my friend, he thinks there’s too many poles here, there’s only 2 bin men on the wagon these days, too many rules etc.

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BillyHunt:
As I’ve said it would seem that the scots are happy with being in the EU, they voted for the snp after all whose preference is to stay in. Now, if we vote to leave they say they want another referendum, does this mean that every time someone gets upset with the way things are going we are off to the ballot box? I think not. Cameron has made his position clear, labour want their seats back so they won’t be onside.
Do you really believe that the vast majority of voters think of anything but their own situation when voting? It’s my opinion that most wouldn’t have a clue about federalism v unionism, they’re more interested in “what’s in it for me” do you think the likes of DP sit & ponder wether an out vote will, or at least could, lead to secession, a break up of the Union, a war with the EU? No my friend, he thinks there’s too many poles here, there’s only 2 bin men on the wagon these days, too many rules etc.

people will think whats in it for them billy

low wages thanks to the huge number of imported people who come here is there main concern, stop the flood and wages will have to go up, it all makes sense to most working class people, there fed up of it big time

hence ukip forced the issue, do you remember all the rants and slagging off that went ukips way during the euro elections, its a bunch of racisits branded the same as a the bnp and if remember right billy it was your tune you sang back then as well

the papers tried there best to smash ukip and look what happend

the people spoke loud and clear by voing ukip it sent a huge message they want out of europe as they all knew what ukip stands for

the torys put in there manifesto a referendum on europe and saved themselves if they didnt then they would of ended up like labour did

hence labour have now changed there tune.

i am growing more and more confident that the vote will be to get out of europe billy and we might at long last be able to police our shores and get back to a decent living for all rather than those who happend to end up in good firms

there are not that many good jobs around these days with good firms as most have gone down the cheap labour route

so yes people will vote for whats in it for them and they know what they have at the moment isnt good enough

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BillyHunt:
As I’ve said it would seem that the scots are happy with being in the EU, they voted for the snp after all whose preference is to stay in. Now, if we vote to leave they say they want another referendum, does this mean that every time someone gets upset with the way things are going we are off to the ballot box? I think not. Cameron has made his position clear, labour want their seats back so they won’t be onside.
Do you really believe that the vast majority of voters think of anything but their own situation when voting? It’s my opinion that most wouldn’t have a clue about federalism v unionism, they’re more interested in “what’s in it for me” do you think the likes of DP sit & ponder wether an out vote will, or at least could, lead to secession, a break up of the Union, a war with the EU? No my friend, he thinks there’s too many poles here, there’s only 2 bin men on the wagon these days, too many rules etc.

It seems obvious that Scotland wants to take a UK secession course to the point where the UK ‘Union’ is already effectively over and not before time.

The issue of the SNP’s pro EU stance is probably irrelevant in that regard in just the same way that Ireland’s EU membership didn’t include any wish to be part of the UK again.However it seems equally obvious that ‘if’ England wants out of the EU that will just increase the differences between Scotland and England to the point where Scotland will inevitably finish the job of leaving the ‘UK’.Assuming that scenario then there is no point in Cameron trying to use his UK ‘powers’ to over rule the wishes of the Scots/SNP.The only possible reason being the hope that clinging onto the already holed below the waterline and sinking ‘UK’ Union will keep the Federalist dreams of his and his Europhile Cons alive both in regards to the UK and EU.

As for EU referendum voters not having a clue as to all the implications of it being an argument for or against Federalism v National sovereignty that’s just more reason as to why it is an argument which can’t/shouldn’t be settled by democratic process.In that no one has the right to vote away the nation’s sovereignty in favour of foreign federal government. :unamused:

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desypete:
there are not that many good jobs around these days with good firms as most have gone down the cheap labour route

so yes people will vote for whats in it for them and they know what they have at the moment isnt good enough

Which explains why Labour’s vote has ( rightly ) collapsed.While leaving the question how can a so called ‘Party’ that is supposedly there for the interests of the working class,continue to support the CBI and the EU federal scam.In which UK tax payers pay massive net contributions for the privilege of being in a trade cartel which is all about British jobs for German relatively skilled labour or East European semi/un skilled labour. :unamused:

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Ah DP I do find your one eyed view amusing, how ukip have come along and saved us all. Yes they spoke and we listened, so much so they now have an MP all of their own, weren’t you one of those saying they needed double figures or it’s a waste of time? Yes your right, get all those immigrants sent home or stopped & we can all flock to get those jobs left behind, I can see you working at McDs flipping burgers. Once they’ve all gone you’ll no doubt be on complaining about how things aren’t getting done anymore & wondering why.
For the record there are plenty good jobs out there, you just have to go & find them, and be qualified of course.

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Carryfast:

BillyHunt:
As I’ve said it would seem that the scots are happy with being in the EU, they voted for the snp after all whose preference is to stay in. Now, if we vote to leave they say they want another referendum, does this mean that every time someone gets upset with the way things are going we are off to the ballot box? I think not. Cameron has made his position clear, labour want their seats back so they won’t be onside.
Do you really believe that the vast majority of voters think of anything but their own situation when voting? It’s my opinion that most wouldn’t have a clue about federalism v unionism, they’re more interested in “what’s in it for me” do you think the likes of DP sit & ponder wether an out vote will, or at least could, lead to secession, a break up of the Union, a war with the EU? No my friend, he thinks there’s too many poles here, there’s only 2 bin men on the wagon these days, too many rules etc.

It seems obvious that Scotland wants to take a UK secession course to the point where the UK ‘Union’ is already effectively over and not before time.

The issue of the SNP’s pro EU stance is probably irrelevant in that regard in just the same way that Ireland’s EU membership didn’t include any wish to be part of the UK again.However it seems equally obvious that ‘if’ England wants out of the EU that will just increase the differences between Scotland and England to the point where Scotland will inevitably finish the job of leaving the ‘UK’.Assuming that scenario then there is no point in Cameron trying to use his UK ‘powers’ to over rule the wishes of the Scots/SNP.The only possible reason being the hope that clinging onto the already holed below the waterline and sinking ‘UK’ Union will keep the Federalist dreams of his and his Europhile Cons alive both in regards to the UK and EU.

As for EU referendum voters not having a clue as to all the implications of it being an argument for or against Federalism v National sovereignty that’s just more reason as to why it is an argument which can’t/shouldn’t be settled by democratic process.In that no one has the right to vote away the nation’s sovereignty in favour of foreign federal government. :unamused:

I’ve done the Scotland thing to death, they’re going nowhere, end of.
So as you think the process of in/out of the EU shouldn’t be left to the public by way of a referendum as, and I would agree with this, they don’t know, understand or even care about the implications regarding federalism. How, in your opinion, should that be achieved?

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BillyHunt:
So as you think the process of in/out of the EU shouldn’t be left to the public by way of a referendum as, and I would agree with this, they don’t know, understand or even care about the implications regarding federalism. How, in your opinion, should that be achieved?

The out campaign should have done it/do it through the courts.By having Heath’s actions,in taking us in,in 1973,declared an act of treason in compromising the sovereignty of the government and thereby declaring the referendum of 1975 and its result as illegal and void and thereby our past present and future membership of the EU. :bulb:

eutruth.org.uk/fco30.html

As for how the Scottish would deal with that same question, regarding a similar ( justified at least from Scotland’s point of view ) case against the act of Union of 1707 and the contradiction of that v its EU membership,is their choice.

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I could be wrong here, I am sometimes, but don’t you think if that was a viable option it would have been tried before? Still, you could always pass it along to Lord farage & see if he fancies it, my guess is hell prefer to go down the referendum route, he could always have it in his back pocket in case of another defeat.
I think the 1707 thing has passed its sell by date.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32899104
Here is some light reading on why I could be wrong on one point, I told you it happens.

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BillyHunt:
Ah DP I do find your one eyed view amusing, how ukip have come along and saved us all. Yes they spoke and we listened, so much so they now have an MP all of their own, weren’t you one of those saying they needed double figures or it’s a waste of time? Yes your right, get all those immigrants sent home or stopped & we can all flock to get those jobs left behind, I can see you working at McDs flipping burgers. Once they’ve all gone you’ll no doubt be on complaining about how things aren’t getting done anymore & wondering why.
For the record there are plenty good jobs out there, you just have to go & find them, and be qualified of course.

how many euro mps do the torys have ? i forget the figure billy care to remind me ?

the people spoke loud and clear in the euro elections billy they voted ukip as they want out. if the people didnt want to be out of europe they would of voted labour in

i love the way you see things to billy if i remember right your from the north east which i find amazing there are any well paid jobs up that way as its always been one of the worst hit areas for low pay
i can remember many years ago working out of manchester for a company and doing work alongside heron transport that were based in the north east, i was on £5.25 an hour back then with o/t after 8 hours, the heron lads were on £3.60 flat rate. a huge difference in wages for the same job

its the same now in parts of wales as some of the lads working out of there are paid minimum wage per hour, the company’s get away with it as people will not move away from there homes

i am not surprised you dont have the same problems with emigration as the rest of us billy as even the immigrants wouldnt come and work in the north east as they flock to were the better money is to be had so they can send it home, meanwhile those who live here will end up like you say billy working out of macdonalds feeding the polish truck drivers and the indian nhs staff lol

hence you will find out billy that the country is looking to the future and can only see more of the same year in year out unless we put our foot down and say enough is enough

its not racist behaviour its common sense

if you want them here so much billy i would suggest you make room for them to live in your home, feed them and let them run your home just how they wish. i am sure your wages can afford to keep them and as you feel the need to help them so much then you can bloody way pay for them yourself and not expect me or anyone else to pay for them or give up jobs or homes for them.

our council has had to spend out a lot of money in our area to provide a mosque for 60 Muslims in our area to attend, it can not afford to do other vital jobs in the areas so they have to be put on hold, but has to be seen to be political correct in its treatment of migrants who come here to live and then demand we turn our town into a place that is more like home for them.

this sort of thing is happening all around and people are going to food banks while money get wasted on this sort of nonsense, its created real racial tensions in our area, some have nailed pigs heads to the doors of the mosque in protest

the police now have to have more money to make sure the place gets extra protection, so people are just not listened to and money goes on getting wasted time and time again for all sorts of silly things all aimed at trying to promote harmony by political correct nutters

i love the road sign that says welcome to England, and someone added, you will feel more at home more than we do :smiley:

personally i would of added welcome to England, what’s left of it

thats the mood many people feel billy these days as the problem is huge in many parts hence ukip smashed the torys in the euro votes and thats what counts now as we are facing the in out vote

and may i say it will be an honour to come on here after the vote is done and smile at you billy,
it will be the end of all the rules and regs coming over from Europe, we will be able to police our shores and control who comes in, there will be jobs flying around in the hgv world and the money wil have to go up to attract drivers and drivers will start getting some real value for there job they do firms will not be in to much of a hurry to get rid of them as there will need there skills and not relay on the steady import of cheap labour

dare i say it but the cpc card might be a thing of the past, what a waste of time and money that has proved to be, and all the other rules and regs that come over to us from Europe

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BillyHunt:
I could be wrong here, I am sometimes, but don’t you think if that was a viable option it would have been tried before? Still, you could always pass it along to Lord farage & see if he fancies it, my guess is hell prefer to go down the referendum route, he could always have it in his back pocket in case of another defeat.
I think the 1707 thing has passed its sell by date.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32899104
Heated some light reading on why I could be wrong on one point, I told you it happens.

In the case of the treasonous act of handing over national/state sovereignty to foreign federal government there can be no sell by date.The act of Scottish Union being no different to Heath’s actions in 1973 in that regard.

While it seems obvious that the in campaign is realistically based on the combination of the self interest groups made up of socialism ( therefore ideologically opposed to the idea of the nation state ),the CBI who perceive an ‘advantage’ whatever that ‘advantage’ might be,Conservative Unionist/Federalist ideology.

Then last but not least the fact that ‘if’ any EU state is seen to secede on grounds of sovereignty.Or ‘if’ the EU system of government is changed to a Confederal type one in which the individual Sates have supreme sovereignty,that would obviously raise questions and implications regarding the future stability of the US Federal system as of at least 1865.While vice versa in the case of closer EU integration to the point where it becomes the USE. :bulb:

As for the ‘question’.Unlike 1975 and bearing in mind the implications.

The question should include the statement that ‘‘the domestic government has reviewed the decision to join the EEC/EU in 1973 and has decided it wasn’t and therefore isn’t in the national interest’’.

Therefore.Do you agree that we should leave the EU with immediate effect. :bulb:

As for the reasons why that won’t happen see above. :unamused:

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I blame Sep Blatter