DVSA Publish New Drivers Hours Guidance

Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

You say you can’t see ( much difference ) what difference have you spotted.
Some times it’s the simplest of things that don’t look important but can close the simplest of loop holes

shep532:
Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches - Guidance - GOV.UK

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

Rjan:

shep532:
Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches - Guidance - GOV.UK

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

yet they are withdrawing the mileage allowance? nobody is paying me to commute and i cant claim so how exactly is it defined as working time? i will apply the same principle as with the DCPC: not being paid therefore not working time!

Rjan:
1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

This rule hasn’t changed at-all, it doesn’t say anything about travelling to a temporary workplace being working time, travelling to take charge of a vehicle that’s not at the operators centre or the drivers home cannot be counted as rest or break, that’s the way it’s been for years.

The case you’ve mentioned has been discussed before and has nothing to do with the way agency workers travel to or from work.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=130078

scanny77:

Rjan:
1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

yet they are withdrawing the mileage allowance? nobody is paying me to commute and i cant claim so how exactly is it defined as working time? i will apply the same principle as with the DCPC: not being paid therefore not working time!

The one doesn’t relate to the other here. The mileage allowance is an allowance for travelling costs, not for your travelling time. I also don’t believe they have withdrawn the mileage allowance itself - just changed the criteria for entitlement.

Also, the NMW will apply to working time, but there are no other restrictions on paying for time. The employer does not have to pay for specific periods of working time, as long as the average hourly rate for all working time is above NMW.

shep532:
Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches - Guidance - GOV.UK

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

The biggest difference for me is the lack of the books…I’ve just about got to grips with the previous PDF version to download & print off as and when required but these updates seem to only be available as an on-line version, not printer friendly at all!!!

Does anyone know if or when they will become available in PDF format?? Or is there an easy way to download the guide other than screen shot (not very good with the old laptop - but I’m sure I’m not on my own!!)

Cheers.

scanny77:

Rjan:

shep532:
Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches - Guidance - GOV.UK

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

yet they are withdrawing the mileage allowance? nobody is paying me to commute and i cant claim so how exactly is it defined as working time? i will apply the same principle as with the DCPC: not being paid therefore not working time!

Completely agree with you Ritchie.

tachograph:

Rjan:
1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

This rule hasn’t changed at-all, it doesn’t say anything about travelling to a temporary workplace being working time, travelling to take charge of a vehicle that’s not at the operators centre or the drivers home cannot be counted as rest or break, that’s the way it’s been for years.

The case you’ve mentioned has been discussed before and has nothing to do with the way agency workers travel to or from work.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=130078

The text of the DVSA guidance hasn’t changed at all.

What has been clarified since it was written, is the definition of “working time” as including the first leg of commuting time to a temporary workplace (or series of temporary workplaces).

Before Tyco, it appeared that this may not have been the case. It seems to have been known in the care sector not to pay workers (on NMW) for that first leg of travel, so it was some good news for them as it means they must be paid NMW for that time too.

That much sounds sensible, but under English law (and as regards agency workers and contractors), the operator is not the employer (and therefore none of your workplaces appear to be the “employer’s operational centre where you are normally based” - or “permanent workplace” as it is usually called by HMRC and the rest).

Since it has now been clarified that the first and last leg of your commute is indeed working time for a worker without a permanent workplace, and not non-working or “rest” time (as it is for a worker with a permanent workplace), the same old DVSA rule (and the same old tachograph rules) may now be applied differently.

Carl Usher:

scanny77:

Rjan:

shep532:
Apologies if this might have already been posted but I just received the email from DVSA today and thought you may all be interested.

Here’s the text from the email:

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) has published new guidance on drivers’ hours and tachographs.

The guidance is for drivers and operators of goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles in Great Britain and Europe, whether used privately or commercially.
If you drive a goods vehicle or a passenger-carrying vehicle you must follow the rules on how many hours you can drive and the breaks that you need to take.
Aims of the new guidance
The new guides explain the rules for drivers’ hours and the keeping of records, and update previous guidance from 2011.
Read the following guides for more information:

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK

Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches - Guidance - GOV.UK

I reckon to have had a look through it all and can’t see much difference to the original GV262 or PSV 375 books.

1.7, travel to a temporary workplace is working time. For temps, agency workers, and contractors, wonder how that interacts with the Tyco case at the ECJ, stating that travelling time spent commuting to a temporary workplace is working time?

yet they are withdrawing the mileage allowance? nobody is paying me to commute and i cant claim so how exactly is it defined as working time? i will apply the same principle as with the DCPC: not being paid therefore not working time!

Completely agree with you Ritchie.

thank you :slight_smile:

this week would have been an interesting one had this meant commuting meant working time. i had a planned night out on sunday followed by an unplanned night out on monday (breakdown) then a 15 hour shift on tuesday (currently the end of my working week) so would i have had to night out in my car before driving home? :laughing:

Wait… I’m agreeing with what you wrote but in my defence I hadn’t actually read the article. The article states :

Where a vehicle coming within the scope of the EU rules is neither at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, but is at a separate location, time spent travelling to or from that location to take charge of the vehicle, regardless of the mode of transport, cannot be counted as a rest or break, unless the driver is in a ferry or train and has access to a bunk or couchette. Even if the driver is not paid or makes the decision themselves to travel to or from home/base the travel time cannot be counted as rest or break.

For example: If a driver had to drive for 1 hour by car to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not the driver’s home or his normal operating base then this driving would count as other work. Similarly, if he had to drive back by car from a location that was not his normal operating base, this would count as other work.

That doesn’t have anything to do with travelling to a firm to do an agency shift, for example, so doesn’t apply. People are misinterpreting what it says.

Rjan:
What has been clarified since it was written, is the definition of “working time” as including the first leg of commuting time to a temporary workplace (or series of temporary workplaces).

Those are employed workers who do not have a depot to work from or who start work from their home, the EU have decided that going straight from home to their first appointment is working time, that’s totally different to an agency worker going to a temporary place of work.

Commuting to or from work is not and is never likely to be counted as working time, but where a worker has no place of work to start from, or travels to the first appointment from home, it’s been decided by the EU that the workers home is the workplace they start from.

Indeed it could be said that they have been brought into line with mobile workers, a driver who travels to a vehicle that’s not at his home or usual place of work cannot count the travelling time as break or rest, that’s basically what has been decided in the Tyco case for their employees except they travel to an appointment instead of a vehicle.

so nothing has really changed then…its still a 15 hour day…3 days a week…and 90 hrs a fortnight driving hours, with 80hrs plus per week on duty…and a take home of £400…i might just retire…

tachograph:

Rjan:
What has been clarified since it was written, is the definition of “working time” as including the first leg of commuting time to a temporary workplace (or series of temporary workplaces).

Those are employed workers who do not have a depot to work from or who start work from their home, the EU have decided that going straight from home to their first appointment is working time, that’s totally different to an agency worker going to a temporary place of work.

Commuting to or from work is not and is never likely to be counted as working time, but where a worker has no place of work to start from, or travels to the first appointment from home, it’s been decided by the EU that the workers home is the workplace they start from.

Indeed it could be said that they have been brought into line with mobile workers, a driver who travels to a vehicle that’s not at his home or usual place of work cannot count the travelling time as break or rest, that’s basically what has been decided in the Tyco case for their employees except they travel to an appointment instead of a vehicle.

That is not how I read it at all. To say the case concerns workers with “no depot” or who “start work from home” is begging the question - the case declared that the destination of the first leg of a worker’s commute is not his “depot” if it is not his permanent workplace or “fixed place of work”, and as a consequence then his working time started from leaving home to commute to the first destination as specified by the employer.

The concept of a “fixed place of work” means more than “whatever the employer says it is that day”, otherwise the concept has no meaning. The effect of the case is that, for a worker whose workplace is not sufficiently regular over time to be considered a “fixed” workplace, travelling to and from work is working time.

For most agency workers and contractors, their working arrangements (unless they are very stable and almost never subject to variation by the agency or client) will usually mean they have no fixed workplace.

As for the DVSA guidance, the fact that agency workers are not the operator’s employees means that travelling to the operator’s premises can never be the “employer’s normal operating centre”. But that might just be sloppy use of the word, and the test in law is whether the worker’s workplace is “fixed” or “habitual” (presumably as opposed to ‘varying’).

The concept seems to be identical to HMRC’s concept of a “permanent workplace” versus a “temporary workplace” - and I believe a temporary workplace can be months or even a year or two.

A good standard to illustrate the difference would be to ask “would a worker consider resettling their home to be nearer to their workplace” - since health and wellbeing is really what the EU rules are designed to promote (and we’d all accept that a 15 hour working day plus an hour’s total commute is not even a safe way of operating, let alone healthy for the worker). If no worker would ever consider resettling even if the workplace was a fair distance away, it probably indicates that the workplace is temporary.

nick2008:
You say you can’t see ( much difference ) what difference have you spotted.
Some times it’s the simplest of things that don’t look important but can close the simplest of loop holes

If you click on “see all updates” on the DVSA page, you can see exactly what has changed.

Rjan:

tachograph:

Rjan:
What has been clarified since it was written, is the definition of “working time” as including the first leg of commuting time to a temporary workplace (or series of temporary workplaces).

Those are employed workers who do not have a depot to work from or who start work from their home, the EU have decided that going straight from home to their first appointment is working time, that’s totally different to an agency worker going to a temporary place of work.

Commuting to or from work is not and is never likely to be counted as working time, but where a worker has no place of work to start from, or travels to the first appointment from home, it’s been decided by the EU that the workers home is the workplace they start from.

Indeed it could be said that they have been brought into line with mobile workers, a driver who travels to a vehicle that’s not at his home or usual place of work cannot count the travelling time as break or rest, that’s basically what has been decided in the Tyco case for their employees except they travel to an appointment instead of a vehicle.

That is not how I read it at all. To say the case concerns workers with “no depot” or who “start work from home” is begging the question - the case declared that the destination of the first leg of a worker’s commute is not his “depot” if it is not his permanent workplace or “fixed place of work”, and as a consequence then his working time started from leaving home to commute to the first destination as specified by the employer.

The concept of a “fixed place of work” means more than “whatever the employer says it is that day”, otherwise the concept has no meaning. The effect of the case is that, for a worker whose workplace is not sufficiently regular over time to be considered a “fixed” workplace, travelling to and from work is working time.

For most agency workers and contractors, their working arrangements (unless they are very stable and almost never subject to variation by the agency or client) will usually mean they have no fixed workplace.

As for the DVSA guidance, the fact that agency workers are not the operator’s employees means that travelling to the operator’s premises can never be the “employer’s normal operating centre”. But that might just be sloppy use of the word, and the test in law is whether the worker’s workplace is “fixed” or “habitual” (presumably as opposed to ‘varying’).

The concept seems to be identical to HMRC’s concept of a “permanent workplace” versus a “temporary workplace”.

See my post at 4:19pm - I have highlighted the relevant bits from the text. It’s pretty clear to me. I think you are reading things that aren’t there.

Carl Usher:
See my post at 4:19pm - I have highlighted the relevant bits from the text. It’s pretty clear to me. I think you are reading things that aren’t there.

I did note your quotation, but didn’t really understand it. It seems pretty clear to me that, for the commute to be treated as rest, the place travelled to must be the driver’s “employer’s operational centre”, and that such a place must be where that driver is “normally based”.

If the operator is not the employer, and/or if the driver is not “normally based” there, then the commute is working time.

And that is just the DVSA guidance, which clearly stands to catch agency workers as it is written. The law itself does not refer to the “employer’s operational centre” - the law refers to a workplace which is fixed or habitual for that worker.

I’d be interested to understand more specifically where you feel my interpretation is differing from yours. An “agency shift” is, in general, at a temporary workplace, and therefore the commute is working time (albeit unpaid).

Sack the proof reader(s)!

1.3 2 week driving limit includes 20 hours diving!!! Too cold at this time of year!!!

Rjan:

Carl Usher:
See my post at 4:19pm - I have highlighted the relevant bits from the text. It’s pretty clear to me. I think you are reading things that aren’t there.

I did note your quotation, but didn’t really understand it. It seems pretty clear to me that, for the commute to be treated as rest, the place travelled to must be the driver’s “employer’s operational centre”, and that such a place must be where that driver is “normally based”.

If the operator is not the employer, and/or if the driver is not “normally based” there, then the commute is working time.

And that is just the DVSA guidance, which clearly stands to catch agency workers as it is written. The law itself does not refer to the “employer’s operational centre” - the law refers to a workplace which is fixed or habitual for that worker.

I’d be interested to understand more specifically where you feel my interpretation is differing from yours. An “agency shift” is, in general, at a temporary workplace, and therefore the commute is working time (albeit unpaid).

Quite simply because of the highlighted statements in my OP : “Where a vehicle coming within the scope of the EU rules is neither at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, but is at a separate location”

  • The vehicle will be at the employer’s operational centre and that’s where the driver (regardless of employment status) will be going to drive it, ergo the commuting does not count as working time.

“For example: If a driver had to drive for 1 hour by car to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not the driver’s home or his normal operating base then this driving would count as other work.”

  • Again, the vehicle location will be at the employer’s operational centre and that’s where the driver (regardless of employment status) will be going to drive it, ergo the commuting does not count as working time.

I don’t know why you’re having such issues understanding this. Are you not of English descent per chance?

unpaid working time is a contradiction. you are on PAID working time or you are unpaid. other than a 45 minute break, if it is on the card then it is paid time. if it is not paid time then it is not on the card and is therefore not working time