Does anybody have any photos or memories of Dukes. I worked for them about 3 to 4 times over a 20yr period from 1980 - 2000.
Got to say they did go downhill but the first 5yrs I was on for them they were ok good money and always treated your family and children at Christmas. And you always were given new tackle Vovlos and Mercs; were the mainstay of the fleet and as a matter of interest all the registrations finished in 77.
One of the Mercs; I drove for 2yrs and covered over 200,000 Kms in was XOI 5377 it was a home from home for me, although my wife at the time didn’t agree with me on that and needless to say found another place to lay her head!!!
I have quite a few photys but I will have to search for them. There is one on the ‘Mighty F7’ thread travelling through London, it brought back memories of taking that particular F7 usually on a Sat evening up to Stranraer and sleeping on the dock for 8 hrs and waiting for the boat to unload with the return trailer.Getting paid 8 quid for sleeping on the dock and about 70/80 Quid for the weekend might not seem much now but on top of yer weeks wage it was a good extra.
Can you remember the huge scottish fella that used to drive for them back
in the late 80s he was a about 6"2 tall and built like a brick ■■■■ house,and
was in his 60s .Used to drive a F10 or F12 cant remember now but was
a twin his brother and won a medal in the Olympics shotting ! Anyway
he was a good old boy but was sadly found dead one day near Paris.
From memory i think he had died of a heart attack.Cant remember the
fellas name but someone must know it ?
Hi Folks,
Thanks Nianiamh & DEANB sorry I havn’t responded earlier, the pics certainly brought back memories, if my memory serves me right the picture of the ‘Highline’ Volvo coming out of Dover, GBZ 3277 was one of the first on the road for Dukes. The F10/12s were the staple of the continental fleet run by Ronnie Duke, Winston ran the Irish & UK operation.
DEANB:
I can’t recall the particular lad you mention but there were a quite a few who died of heart attacks whilst I was on for them, one old guy who looked about 80 but was only in his 50’s was found dead in the toilets at the depot they used to have at the back of Watford Gap services on the A5, before they opened the place at Crick next to Tescos RDC, in fact the pic of the merc looks like it was taken at the Crick depot?
Again thanks for the info & pics & I’m sure there must be a lot more of us who have memories of Dukes. At the time 1980 - onwards they were the largest privately owned transport co; in the whole of Ireland but I think they tried too hard to compete with the ‘Big Boys’ and it eventually brought them down.
I always thought the company was OK just like everyone at the time they sailed close to wind sometimes but I was never instructed to break the law, if & when I did it was always my decision and I was duly rewarded for it!!
I don’t think it works that way these days too much regulation and big penalties for anyone invovled in the slightest breach of the rules. Muggers & street robbers are dealt with more leniently than the average lorry driver.
I’ve no pics of Dukes but they used to run into Maltby and load chilled product for Tesco Belfast.I seem to recall that some of the units were still in the Duke’s livery but pulling Montgomery trailers.Were they taken over by them or did they just go bust?
They were all good lads and never seemed to be in a hurry as far as I remember.
Chris Webb:
I’ve no pics of Dukes but they used to run into Maltby and load chilled product for Tesco Belfast.I seem to recall that some of the units were still in the Duke’s livery but pulling Montgomery trailers.Were they taken over by them or did they just go bust?
They were all good lads and never seemed to be in a hurry as far as I remember.
chris, i think dukes lost their uk o licence due to maintinance and drivers hr infringements,then montgomerys bought out the uk mainland side of the operation.we pull ex dukes trs for montgomerys to birkenhead docks,they are very old and not in the best condition if you know what i mean we do a lot of this work now pulling our goods in contractors trs,gwined,montgomerys,roadferry etc to birkenhead/l/pool docks for export to ireland.
Right thanks for that rich.Yes on reflection some of their trailers were a bit on the ropey side and didn’t they have a depot in Manchester? I was surprised they went down like that - they were a big concern as somebody said earlier.After the Riverdance episode maybe ex Dukes trailers should be reserved for the NI ferries, eh.
Mind you Interland trailers weren’t much better.A lot of Irish lads pulled them and were quite regular visitors into Maltby.One or two were refused loading 'cos of scruffy/smelly fridge interiors.Good job the drivers didn’t see the state of some of ours.
Hi Chris,
The last time I was on for Dukes was in1999/2000 when they had got on the Tesco RDC contract from Stakehill/Middleton to Livingston & Dundee RDC’. This appears to be what really finished them. A totally inexperienced TM at Hudds; depot just giving anybody a start and then they had to do exactly what was asked
Eventually they were caught up with by the Traffic Commissioners and they sold it all up to Montgomerys before they were put out of business. I am sure some of the drivers involved were sentenced at Leeds Crown Court and then had their HGV licences revoked by the TC for 12 months. Thats how Montys; trailers were being pulled by Dukes units, were they Renault Premiums by any chance?
This was a really big case of ‘Breach of Hours Rules’ in West Yorkshire at the time and some of of the drivers and the TM at Hudds had been told that they were facing custodial sentences!!
I do have first hand knowledge of this happening and I can only give this bit of advice if you are doing casual work or only working 3/4 days a week make sure your tachos & mileage correspond to days that you work, I was invited by the TC & the police to explain why there were mileage differences between me leaving the vehicle and me starting driving the vehicle again. At first the interviewers seemed to find it difficult to understand that I had worked from Friday to Sunday and then started again on the Wednesday and there was a different start mileage on the tacho; It took a bit explaining that the vehicles were used 24/7 and sometimes I was lucky to actually get the same unit twice, what happened and who drove it when I was off duty was not my concern. I couldn’t be held responsible for the work the vehicle had done when I had no control over it . They had been trying to say that sometimes because I’d only taken a 9 hour break at the depot the difference in mileage, because another driver and the shunter had used the unit during the day and it was earning, I had been on some kind of fiddle, doing the day work without a card in, and doing the night work with the card in and denying that I knew about it.
What really peed me off about this is that some lads where actually doing this, and more , and it was with the collusion of the so called “TM”. They had got rid of the real one 9 moths previously because he wouldn’t let a driver breach the hours rules. Nuff Said!!
Chris Webb:
Right thanks for that rich.Yes on reflection some of their trailers were a bit on the ropey side and didn’t they have a depot in Manchester? I was surprised they went down like that - they were a big concern as somebody said earlier.After the Riverdance episode maybe ex Dukes trailers should be reserved for the NI ferries, eh.
Mind you Interland trailers weren’t much better.A lot of Irish lads pulled them and were quite regular visitors into Maltby.One or two were refused loading 'cos of scruffy/smelly fridge interiors.Good job the drivers didn’t see the state of some of ours.
chris you are right about interland trs ,i had forgotten how bad they were,the funny thing about the riverdance saga was that a tr loaded with our goods was 1 of the first trs to fall off the ferry into the sea,this was being reinported to the uk,and they keep telling us there is no money in biscuits.
No loss that theyre gone. The 77 in the registration was a lodge number, shortly before they were closed they moved to republic plates as uk tax went sky high on 4x2 units. Bet that was a bitter pill for Ron Duke to swallow
Chris Webb:
Right thanks for that rich.Yes on reflection some of their trailers were a bit on the ropey side and didn’t they have a depot in Manchester? I was surprised they went down like that - they were a big concern as somebody said earlier.After the Riverdance episode maybe ex Dukes trailers should be reserved for the NI ferries, eh.
Mind you Interland trailers weren’t much better.A lot of Irish lads pulled them and were quite regular visitors into Maltby.One or two were refused loading 'cos of scruffy/smelly fridge interiors.Good job the drivers didn’t see the state of some of ours.
chris you are right about interland trs ,i had forgotten how bad they were,the funny thing about the riverdance saga was that a tr loaded with our goods was 1 of the first trs to fall off the ferry into the sea,this was being reinported to the uk,and they keep telling us there is no money in biscuits.
So UB ship biscuits to Eire and re-import into the UK,is that what you are saying rich12?
It seems very sad ‘ellies dad’ that you have bring up the religious divide in a response to a post that was only seeking photos & memories of a large well known transport co; You might think its best theyr’e gone but I bet the 300 other employees that had to sign on the dole after they went down didn’t.
As for ‘77’ being a lodge number seeing as 75% of their employees lived and worked on the mainland, what the F**K has it got to do with anything!!!
It sounds like you fit in to the class of idiots that tried to run me off the road during the 80’s because of my registration plate, It also seems like, even possibly being a parent, you haven’t grown up yet and are someone who likes to feel pretty hard done too by people who are long dead and gone.
And yes I actually know the history of Ireland check out The Penningtons of Sligo, my Dad has just passed away there but I still have cousins who live there.
Please keep your religious politics off a website that is meant for people who live and breathe transport!!!
Montgomery bought Dukes for around £5m. The company never closed down, it demerged the rigids become Montgomery Distribution still based in Craigavon the fridge became Montgomery Refrigeration. It seems as if the Dukes had plenty to retire on, the company certainly did not go into insolvency.
always thought the 77 was something to do with dukes being christian/brethern or bible linked,not sure how but again never heard the lodge link.anyhow not that relevant to someone who is looking photos from the past i think.as someone said montgomery bought them,may be one of the early purchases he made, he also bought east west,ballyclare freight,connolly bros and millar carriers and some others but one common theme seems to be once bought the companies/liveries disappear.
I’m not sure were the Insolvency comment came from I said that they sold it all up to Montys; before their OPs licence for working in England & Scotland was going to be revoked because of drivers breaching the hours regs; on the Tesco RDC contract.
I’m sure Ronnie & Winston saw the writing on the wall and worked out some deal with Montgomery’s and good on em!!
I’m sure anybody using this website who had been put in the same position would have done the same, unless that is we still have a lot Victorian philanthropists working in the Transport game? I think not!!
glenman:
always thought the 77 was something to do with dukes being christian/brethern or bible linked,not sure how but again never heard the lodge link.anyhow not that relevant to someone who is looking photos from the past i think.as someone said montgomery bought them,may be one of the early purchases he made, he also bought east west,ballyclare freight,connolly bros and millar carriers and some others but one common theme seems to be once bought the companies/liveries disappear.
Glenman,Connolly Bros. were regular visitors into our depot at Maltby in the 80s with full loads of Irish cheddar .I didn’t realise they had been Montgomeryised as well as Dukes and East-West.Monty must be the biggest operator in N.I. and the Republic as well no doubt.
This was an appeal from a decision of the Traffic Commissioner for the Scottish Traffic Area on 29 October 2001 when he revoked the Company’s licence on grounds including loss of repute. The Company and its two managing directors, Ronald and Winston Duke, were disqualified for ten years. The operations director, Gary Diamond, was disqualified for six years and the other directors, Michael Duke, William Steele and Thomas Kerr, were each disqualified for two years. The Company and all the directors appealed. A finding of loss of repute was also made against the nominated transport manager, Derek McDowall, who appealed but did not appear at the hearing of the appeal.
The factual background to the appeal appears from the documents, the transcript of the public inquiry and the written decision of the Traffic Commissioner and is as follows:-
(i) The Company has held a Standard International operator’s licence in the Scottish Traffic Area for about 30 years. This currently authorises 47 vehicles and 121 trailers, of which 37 vehicles are specified, with about 115 trailers in possession. The principal operating centre in Scotland is at Stranraer and the Company’s headquarters are at Portadown in Northern Ireland. It also holds operator’s licences in the North Western, North Eastern and Eastern Traffic Areas in Great Britain.
(ii) A major investigation was carried out by the police and the Vehicle Inspectorate into the Company’s activities during 1999. A surveillance operation of vehicle movements was carried out for the period 23 May-11 July 1999 and in October 1999 the Company’s premises were raided and tachographs and other records seized.
(iii) As a result of the investigation a total of 42 drivers have so far been convicted of 176 offences of knowingly making a false record. 12 drivers had their cases committed to the Crown Court for sentence. The Vehicle Inspectorate also allege that a total of over 500,000 kilometres could not be accounted for from the tachographs provided by the Company and that numerous other drivers’ hours offences were detected but were not prosecuted because they had become time-barred.
It was agreed by the Traffic Commissioners that the Traffic Commissioner for the Scottish Traffic Area should hold the first public inquiry. The call-up letter was sent out on 20 August 2001 and the public inquiry took place at Edinburgh on 15 October 2001, lasting for five days. An application by the Company to increase its authorised number of vehicles was heard at the same time. The Company was represented by Mr Jonathan Lawton and in consequence of permission granted by the Traffic Commissioner the Vehicle Inspectorate was represented by Mr Richard Wadkin.
(v) The principal witness for the Vehicle Inspectorate was Mrs Tracey Collins. Although maintenance was also in issue it took up little time and was not a continuing concern. Mrs Collins gave details of the investigation. A total of some 8059 tachograph charts in the names of 448 drivers were analysed and this revealed that a total of 543,374 kilometres were missing from five different Company depots. A total of 392 drivers’ hours and tachograph offences were found in relation to the Scottish licence; and a further 137 were found in relation to the English licences. These were additional to the offences which were subsequently prosecuted. Most of the 42 drivers were convicted at Dewsbury Magistrates’ Court, with 12 being committed for sentence to Leeds Crown Court. Substantial fines and orders for costs were imposed, together with orders for community service.
(vi) As set out in the decision:-
“14. Mrs Collins … had analysed the various ways in which the drivers had committed the False Records offences (eg.by the use of “ghost” drivers’ names, by winding back tachograph clocks, by removing fuses from tachographs or speed limiters, by driving without (or by subsequently destroying) tachograph charts etc. VI accepted that some of the offences would not have been detectable without further information from booking sheets held by contractors etc., but concluded that approximately 70% of the False Records offences, and all the other ones, could have been detected had the Company properly checked the charts. A number of drivers have claimed that they had never been given instruction about the hours’ rules.”
(vii) The Vehicle Inspectorate had carried out an analysis of two of the Company’s larger contracts and had concluded that the work could have been done legitimately, although drivers would have received lower earnings. Records were falsified by drivers both to maintain pay levels and to enable them to return for the weekend.
(viii) The Company’s case was summarised in the decision:-
“18. It was essentially the company’s case that drivers had not been instructed or put under any pressure to break the law. The company was satisfied that all work could be done within the drivers’ hours’ limitations and that drivers who, for instance, might run out of time due to congestion or shipping delays needed only to telephone their depots for assistance. It was accepted that there had been a widespread failure to check tachograph charts and that there was a huge amount of missing mileage, but the Directors and senior
management in Northern Ireland were quite unaware of all this until alerted by VI. None of their managers at any deport had ever told them of a problem. The company had not felt it necessary to carry out any internal quality control or other audit checks on record keeping at its depots because all its managers were qualified (as holders of the appropriate Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC)) and were well paid. They could easily have alerted Portadown if they had felt the need, but none had done so, nor had any drivers ever complained to senior management.”
(ix) The position was amplified in evidence by Mr Diamond:-
“22. Mr Diamond has full responsibility for all the Company’s operations. He is based with the other directors at Portadown but would make frequent visits to depots on the mainland. He, along with the other Directors, was shocked and horrified by the raid and the results that emerged. He had had absolute confidence in the depot managers and had ensured that they were involved in his workings for, for instance, the Tesco contract. … He had never been told of any problems by depot managers. … There was no proactive system within the company to carry out internal quality control or audit of drivers’ records at depots, although there had been some checking of tachograph records by independent consultants. He had felt, in the absence of any indication to the contrary, that this was adequate and neither he nor Mr Scroggie, who by his own statement had some rather ill defined responsibility for this, felt a need for further audit. They took the view (and so, I should add, did Mr Lawton very firmly both during the interviews and at Inquiry) that the well-paid depot managers should have been responsible and were therefore to blame.”
(x) Mr Ronald Duke gave evidence that the depot managers had total authority over their depots:-
“25. … they had every opportunity to discuss problems with company headquarters yet they had never alerted the company to the problems of drivers hours and tachographs. He had not been personally involved in their appointments because he needed to delegate: if he were to try to do everything himself it would be impossible. Decisions on whether and what disciplinary action should be taken against the convicted drivers had been the responsibility of Mr Diamond, but the firm was run on Christian principles whereby charity was exercised whenever possible. As to the depot managers, who he too blamed for the failings, the Huddersfield depot had been closed and the manager and his assistant had left.”
(xi) Evidence was given of the changes that had been made since in order to ensure that there was no repetition of the failings found in 1999. The last witness called was Mr McDowall, who had been the nominated transport manager on the Scottish Licence. He had also been the depot manager at Stranraer from 1991 until September 1998 when he left on doctor’s advice because he was suffering from stress. He returned to work in May 1999 as assistant manager and found that the TachoDisc system that he had been using before his illness was no longer working properly. He accepted that “the system that was in place had been inadequate, that checks were not being done closely enough and that there was no excuse for so many infringements to be found when VI investigated …”.
(xii) Mr Lawton made various submissions on the Company’s behalf:-
“33. On the question of responsibility, Mr Lawton emphasised that there was no evidence that senior management of Portadown were aware of the problem - nobody had advised them of it. Even the depot manager as Huddersfield had stated that he was unaware of the problems there yet he had not been prosecuted, although he should have known what was going on and he should have advised Portadown. Indeed Mr Webb, who was now Operation Manager for all depots in Great Britain, had confirmed that tachograph control was a fundamental part of a depot manager’s job. In this respect all the depot managers held the CPC: whilst there may be some shortcomings with this qualification it did include knowledge of tachograph legislation. Portadown had no reason to believe that depot managers were deprived of information; they had the TachoDisc system albeit it had proved unsatisfactory, and they had external tachograph analysis, admittedly ineffective.
“34. Mr Lawton took the view that the fundamental consideration in my decision would be the issue of delegation. The company were not aware of the offences, and this was the fault of the depot managers. He personally strongly supported the company in its view that responsibility for tachographs lay with depot managers and that there was no need for further audit: there was no evidence of subversion or indeed of all charts being abused, rather, it was accepted that there had been incompetence of administration. …
“35. Mr Lawton emphasised finally that this was a long standing family company, a significant employer that trusted its employees. It had not shut its eyes, but had needed time to reconsider and regroup after VI’s findings came to light. A whole raft of new measures were now in place to ensure that there could be no repetition of the 1999 offences, and there was no evidence to suggest that the Company had done anything other than operate properly since then …”
(xiii) The Traffic Commissioner concluded that there was no evidence of direct pressure by senior management in Portadown but reviewed the circumstances in which local management were under pressure at Stranraer:-
“38. Many drivers did allege that they were put under more than routine pressure, and this is clear from their statements … With one or two exceptions most agreed that they had not specifically been told to break the law but that pressure had been applied by inference. … there is compelling evidence in this case that local management turned a blind eye to the offences and did not ask questions, indeed the drivers were told on occasions to “sort things out for themselves”: how otherwise could 114 False Records offences by 28 drivers at Stranraer within a seven-week period have gone unnoticed? In my opinion this was not just a matter of failing to check tachographs: it was rather the intentional and deliberate turning of a blind eye. Put quite simply it suited local management for vehicles to be returned promptly and at best they did not discourage the irregularities involved.”
Mr Lawton submitted that the sentencing comments by the judge at Leeds Crown Court “reflected unfairly on the Company because they had not had an opportunity to put their side of the story”:-
“40. … [Mr Lawton] also believed that the drivers at that stage were so frightened by the possibility of going to prison that they had allowed their defence team to blame the company in the hope that they would escape jail. I have seen all the drivers’ statements and do not believe that anything was said at Leeds that they had not previously said, and I understand that they had all given similar statements … [in] pre-sentencing reports …
“41. I quote three extracts from comments by Judge Charlesworth in the transcript of the Leeds Crown Court proceedings with which I say, quite categorically, that I agree:
a) “… that what was going on looks very much as if, if not with their encouragement, it was with their knowledge and acceptance”.
b) “There was a culture of non-compliance and the beneficiaries were not just them”(the drivers).
c) “Above all, as I have said in my judgment, you were pressurised either directly or indirectly to commit these offences. That is a very careful reading of all the papers that are placed before me in this case and of what had been said by both Counsel. That pressure you were all under came from Dukes Transport …”.
(xv) The “missing mileage” was considered in detail:-
“46. There appeared to be confusion as to just what policy the Company had been following for tachograph analysis in 1999. Certainly some charts were being sent away, but Mr McDowall had thought that at Stranraer this was for about 10-12 drivers per week, selected at random. He acknowledged that the bureau analysing the charts would in those circumstances be quite unable to look at continuity of drivers’ hours within the fortnightly rule, that they would not know whether the charts were genuine or in “ghost” names since the bureau was given no other employment information, neither would they be able to check for missing mileage as drivers frequently changed vehicles. Furthermore … the depot manager at Huddersfield … in 1999 had told VI in interview in February 2001 that instructions had been received in about May 1999 from Mr Scroggie in Portadown to the effect that their previous tachograph analysis had been too expensive and that they should then just send off charts at random and that this had coincided with the period investigated by VI.
“50. I conclude that the proper control of tachographs had completely broken down throughout the company during the period investigated. Mr McDowall had thought that the system was running satisfactorily at Stranraer when he left in September 1998 … but Mr Webb had felt the same system to be unsatisfactory when he joined the company as depot manager at Crick in May 1999 so changed the system there in mid-June 1999. … It is not for the Commissioner to dictate what system of control a company uses; it is for the professional operator to ensure that an effective system is in place. Quite clearly this was not so.”
he is big for sure but it seems when he buys up a company all the trailers and units get sold or auctioned,but he dosent appear to get bigger fleet wise.it may be just the work hes after and less competition for him.rumours are always about that hes looking to buy someone or other.
hi chris, ub sell to a customer in eire,then he sells back to a buyer in the mainland, and still makes money!!! dont know how this works,grey market imports ,is the name i have heard used.
