Driving without an ABS lead connected

Juddian:

Bking:
EBS is only a pair of can wires which tell the trailer electronically how much braking pressure is being applied to the tractor brakes.

Thats why some trailers can operate the foundation brakes without the service line connected.

The ABS is,apart from the power supply,independent of the tractor unit and is controlled on most trailers by center axle signal on tri axles and front axle on tandems.

Lose one or both can signals and you still have full abs modulated braking.

The ABS is the important system which has to work to be legal.

That’s interesting, i didn’t know some at least modern trailers could operate the brakes via signals from the tractor ABS lead without a service air line, say for example if the yellow line snapped.
How would one know, apart from trying it out in the yard, if your regular trailer responded like this?
Say for example if you had a 2006 Belgian made trailer with Wabco EBS fitted (my regular tank), would you be able to tell by looking without testing it practically if it was capable, or is this very new technology.

I remember when pulling Dutch megas with a UK unit in late 90s the warning lights always came on. When I first reported it I was told the two were not compatible. The first time I got pulled by VOSA I told them this and after they checked some diagrams they had, and done a couple of phone calls I was let away. I reckon things must have improved by now.

Personally i saw bugger all wrong with the proper 3 line systems, one fails there’s a very good chance you’ve still got a full secondary system via the dead man or initial pull on the parking brake, depending on the make, via the blue line.

For newer drivers, our lorries used to have 3 line braking systems instead of 2, the third being blue, it was fully independently piped right through and down the trailer, and operated on some old stuff via the dead mans handle, which was usually a lever of some sort which operated (though happy to be corrected as there were many variations) on the front axle of the tractor and the trailer brakes only…in the days before ABS it was an emergency brake that in the event of a jack knife starting (drive axle locking up), you could, in theory at least, release the footbrake and apply the rest of the brakes, hopefully to straighten it up again and stop it straight, in practice a real jack knife is sudden and terrifying to the poor blighter and it would take nerves and instant reactions to do this.
It was also a secondary system in case the yellow line system failed for any reason.
Notably some Scanias in particular you also has a large lever which acted on the trailer brakes alone as well, this needed to be treated with great respect, for many vehicles had no load sensing brake variance and the trailer brakes were instant on lock up, but for the owner driver very useful (cheap) on traction work cos you could use the trailer to do all the braking.

I’m almost certain that the initial pull on some lorries without a dead mans handle, the parking brake operated this system the same way (some designs, later Fodens for example, the secondary brake was a stright pull in the parking brake, and to engage the park brake fully you eased the park brake lever round a gate of some sort, other makes there would be a release handle incorporated in the park brake lever), but again happy to be put right if i’m wrong her, often am…

My first artic, a mickey mouse Foden, as with other lorries of the era, didn’t have an air operated parking brake at all, it had a transmission drum brake like a Landrover but in the Foden case was a drum fitted to the back of the diff, these designs obviously would have a dead man as the park brake is effectively useless as an emergency brake…wasn’t much better than useless as a park brake come to think of it at all, and for hill starts etc you’d use the dead man just as you might use hold your new lorry on partial park brake for smooth hill starts.

What i should have mentioned, is that these old vehicles didn’t have spring brakes, and when the air drained out the brakes released themselves, so even though it was safer to leave your vehicle with the dead man supplementing the drum park brake, in practice after about an hour the air would have drained out and the air brakes released themselves…the trailer parking brake of the time was a ratcheted cable which was invariably seized solid through lack of use…ahh the good old days… :unamused:

Never liked the knowledge that a service line failure could leave you with no trailer braking at all on a 2 line system, hence just another one of the many reasons for utilising auxilliary braking as much as possible in order to keep all brakes as cool and understressed as possible in case they’re needed desperately, i’m quite pleased to learn from Bking about this electronic trailer braking in the event of no service line for some reason, would like to learn more about it please, but in lorry driver, not too technical :wink: ,language.

Not sure if this is correct but I ripped the ebs socket out doing a tight turn and reported it to t/office, they checked with the MAN dealer and they said it was ok to run without back to base (mt trailer) so long as vehicle was booked in for repair.

To follow on from Juddians post, I had a Iveco/Fiat 190.30 in 1980 which had a ratchet handbrake like a car. I parked on the ramp at Bishopgate park to pay and the bloody thing would not release. I sat there waiting for breakdown assistance for hours while the queue of waiting to get in trucks piled up behind me. Did I get some stick in the pub afterwards :blush: :smiley:

So… Why didn’t you take it off the road yourself on take-over? If you don’t think you can drive it - defect it! :sunglasses:

robroy:
To follow on from Juddians post, I had a Iveco/Fiat 190.30 in 1980 which had a ratchet handbrake like a car. I parked on the ramp at Bishopgate park to pay and the bloody thing would not release. I sat there waiting for breakdown assistance for hours while the queue of waiting to get in trucks piled up behind me. Did I get some stick in the pub afterwards :blush: :smiley:

The biggest amount of stick comes from the in-house breakdown guy when he comes - waving a finger, and “fixing it” in less than 30 seconds. Nothing makes you look like a total ■■■■ than that. :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:

Because he’s in-house the rest of the company you work at gets it posted as a memo on the noticeboard… :blush:
I think one of the last of such episodes before I left involved some other chump who dropped his trailer on the magic roundabout in rush hour… :laughing: No one was hurt etc, but some other driver’s pride this time took critical damage! :smiling_imp:

Juddian:

Bking:
EBS is only a pair of can wires which tell the trailer electronically how much braking pressure is being applied to the tractor brakes.

Thats why some trailers can operate the foundation brakes without the service line connected.

The ABS is,apart from the power supply,independent of the tractor unit and is controlled on most trailers by center axle signal on tri axles and front axle on tandems.

Lose one or both can signals and you still have full abs modulated braking.

The ABS is the important system which has to work to be legal.

That’s interesting, i didn’t know some at least modern trailers could operate the brakes via signals from the tractor ABS lead without a service air line, say for example if the yellow line snapped.
How would one know, apart from trying it out in the yard, if your regular trailer responded like this?
Say for example if you had a 2006 Belgian made trailer with Wabco EBS fitted (my regular tank), would you be able to tell by looking without testing it practically if it was capable, or is this very new technology.

Coincidence,last night had a driver with a sheard yellow line elbow on a new Grey and Adams reefer ring up.He was in a new Actros 64 plate.Told him about the EBS system and told him to disconnect the yellow coupling so it didnt lose air and try the brakes.
He rang back after 10 minutes and said he couldnt tell any difference from when the yellow was connected.Did the delivery and came back to the depot.

Way to tell if your truck/trailer is fully EBS compatible is pull the yellow line,let off the hand brake and get somebody to press the footbrake.Look under the trailer and see if the chambers are operating.
Now wether the “experts” at VOSA would accept this is another matter but this is what EBS compatability is designed to do.
Vosa are usually 20 years behind the times anyway.

Yes I am the only driver & yes only 1 trailer & 1 Unit so was 100% the agency driver. I don’t just blame anyone if I don’t know who it was I’ve been agency myself so know agency always get the blame.
I did drive to my 1st destination but then borrowed a Abs line when I got there but obviously I wouldn’t do it again.

Bking:

Juddian:

Bking:
EBS is only a pair of can wires which tell the trailer electronically how much braking pressure is being applied to the tractor brakes.

Thats why some trailers can operate the foundation brakes without the service line connected.

The ABS is,apart from the power supply,independent of the tractor unit and is controlled on most trailers by center axle signal on tri axles and front axle on tandems.

Lose one or both can signals and you still have full abs modulated braking.

The ABS is the important system which has to work to be legal.

That’s interesting, i didn’t know some at least modern trailers could operate the brakes via signals from the tractor ABS lead without a service air line, say for example if the yellow line snapped.
How would one know, apart from trying it out in the yard, if your regular trailer responded like this?
Say for example if you had a 2006 Belgian made trailer with Wabco EBS fitted (my regular tank), would you be able to tell by looking without testing it practically if it was capable, or is this very new technology.

Coincidence,last night had a driver with a sheard yellow line elbow on a new Grey and Adams reefer ring up.He was in a new Actros 64 plate.Told him about the EBS system and told him to disconnect the yellow coupling so it didnt lose air and try the brakes.
He rang back after 10 minutes and said he couldnt tell any difference from when the yellow was connected.Did the delivery and came back to the depot.

Way to tell if your truck/trailer is fully EBS compatible is pull the yellow line,let off the hand brake and get somebody to press the footbrake.Look under the trailer and see if the chambers are operating.
Now wether the “experts” at VOSA would accept this is another matter but this is what EBS compatability is designed to do.
Vosa are usually 20 years behind the times anyway.

Thanks Bking, i’ll have a little play in the yard see how mine performs, excellent stuff.

Juddian:

Bking:

Juddian:

Bking:
EBS is only a pair of can wires which tell the trailer electronically how much braking pressure is being applied to the tractor brakes.

Thats why some trailers can operate the foundation brakes without the service line connected.

The ABS is,apart from the power supply,independent of the tractor unit and is controlled on most trailers by center axle signal on tri axles and front axle on tandems.

Lose one or both can signals and you still have full abs modulated braking.

The ABS is the important system which has to work to be legal.

That’s interesting, i didn’t know some at least modern trailers could operate the brakes via signals from the tractor ABS lead without a service air line, say for example if the yellow line snapped.
How would one know, apart from trying it out in the yard, if your regular trailer responded like this?
Say for example if you had a 2006 Belgian made trailer with Wabco EBS fitted (my regular tank), would you be able to tell by looking without testing it practically if it was capable, or is this very new technology.

Coincidence,last night had a driver with a sheard yellow line elbow on a new Grey and Adams reefer ring up.He was in a new Actros 64 plate.Told him about the EBS system and told him to disconnect the yellow coupling so it didnt lose air and try the brakes.
He rang back after 10 minutes and said he couldnt tell any difference from when the yellow was connected.Did the delivery and came back to the depot.

Way to tell if your truck/trailer is fully EBS compatible is pull the yellow line,let off the hand brake and get somebody to press the footbrake.Look under the trailer and see if the chambers are operating.
Now wether the “experts” at VOSA would accept this is another matter but this is what EBS compatability is designed to do.
Vosa are usually 20 years behind the times anyway.

Thanks Bking, i’ll have a little play in the yard see how mine performs, excellent stuff.

My pleasure.

More info here for the different types (ABS / EBS)

transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/ … 063837.pdf

Honked:
More info here for the different types (ABS / EBS)

transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/ … 063837.pdf

Oh yes I “forgot” that the “government” designs ABS/EBS systems.
Always thought it was clever folk like Bosch,Wabco,Knorr Bremse or Haldex.
Silly me,

Chuck it, if it ain’t there you can’t plug it in, few year back there was no ABS,EBS so don’t listen to the scaremongers on here

Mrmack65:
Chuck it, if it ain’t there you can’t plug it in, few year back there was no ABS,EBS so don’t listen to the scaremongers on here

So when you kill some body because your trailers jack knifed across three lanes of the motorway and you tell plod that the ABS was working,then they access the vehicle ECU and see it has not worked for the past 2 weeks, Where is your defence?

Bking:

Honked:
More info here for the different types (ABS / EBS)

transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/ … 063837.pdf

Oh yes I “forgot” that the “government” designs ABS/EBS systems.
Always thought it was clever folk like Bosch,Wabco,Knorr Bremse or Haldex.
Silly me,

Indeed.

But ABS manufacturers won’t be stopping you at the roadside to slap your wrists.

getting your wrist slapped for no abs lead plugged in consists of losing 10 mins out of your life in a weighbridge and 2 sheets of A4 paper to be flung out of the window at your convenience…no biggie… :slight_smile:

Bking:

Mrmack65:
Chuck it, if it ain’t there you can’t plug it in, few year back there was no ABS,EBS so don’t listen to the scaremongers on here

So when you kill some body because your trailers jack knifed across three lanes of the motorway and you tell plod that the ABS was working,then they access the vehicle ECU and see it has not worked for the past 2 weeks, Where is your defence?

ABS is different to EBS. ABS still functions without EBS lead. EBS may activate in winter conditions to aid stability, but would not normally activate in most situations.

098Joe:

Bking:

Mrmack65:
Chuck it, if it ain’t there you can’t plug it in, few year back there was no ABS,EBS so don’t listen to the scaremongers on here

So when you kill some body because your trailers jack knifed across three lanes of the motorway and you tell plod that the ABS was working,then they access the vehicle ECU and see it has not worked for the past 2 weeks, Where is your defence?

ABS is different to EBS. ABS still functions without EBS lead. EBS may activate in winter conditions to aid stability, but would not normally activate in most situations.

And where does the power come from for this “miraculous” abs?

Bking:

098Joe:

Bking:

Mrmack65:
Chuck it, if it ain’t there you can’t plug it in, few year back there was no ABS,EBS so don’t listen to the scaremongers on here

So when you kill some body because your trailers jack knifed across three lanes of the motorway and you tell plod that the ABS was working,then they access the vehicle ECU and see it has not worked for the past 2 weeks, Where is your defence?

ABS is different to EBS. ABS still functions without EBS lead. EBS may activate in winter conditions to aid stability, but would not normally activate in most situations.

And where does the power come from for this “miraculous” abs?

Primary or secondary electrical suzie I believe, as ABS has been around a lot longer than EBS which is the lead I assume the poster actually meant, otherwise he would not have had any trailer lights

So the ABS is now powered through the trailer lights?

Buggerd then if its not dark.

WTF medication are these people taking?