Driving whilst on annual leave

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:
If you take one of your annual weeks holiday and your employer allows you to work for someone else you inform your employer of the hours done for the other company, as you are legally obliged to do, and your main employer counts those hours actually worked instead of the 48 hours for your WTD for that week.

the company must show you had your holidays for your main firm in the form of an input on there software in the company i worked for there used a H for holiday at the end of the reference point we got a print out of all weeks in the reference point which showed us how many hours worked and how much break and how much POA and holidays and BH holidays

your company now as to give you your holiday and show that you have had it if as you say there count it as work cos of the other work then when you come to the end of the reference point you may have gone over

so if your on holiday with your firm the input 48 hours if you have had a week off and then add the work to the sheet as an extra and put a note on there

and the is the crux of it if you do not go over your average 48 hour working week in your 17 week reference point your OK

as i have said in other posts if a guru agrees with you Rog than that the answer and you a happy man you

Coffee as said on trucknet he is no expert on WTD and does not bother about it as long as he is ok with the one regs that take president over WTD which is the 561/2006

if you what to find out who is right why don’t you ring someone up and find someone the will tell it your way as you have said to me verbal info is not worth the paper

you also mush remember holidays are calculated at the end of the reference point not in it

i have just read this which point out that your holiday is notional

A: When calculating average working time during a fixed reference period under the
Regulations, mobile workers are required to include notional “working time” figures for any
statutory annual leave (paid leave under the 1998 Working Time Regulations) sick leave,
maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave that they take. These notional figures are 8
hours per day and 48 hours per week. This means that such leave cannot be used to offset
hours actually worked.

so the other work for an employer would be actual work and therefore add to you totals

[rog]

Oh dear Del
How many people does it take to give you an answer to which you will accept

If you do not accept the answers given then why not e-mail your local area VOSA, the DfT etc and get them to confirm or deny what has been said

The answers given by tachograph & coffeeholic make perfect sense - if they did not then I would be posing some more questions

[delboytwo]

ROG:
Oh dear Del
How many people does it take to give you an answer to which you will accept

If you do not accept the answers given then why not e-mail your local area VOSA, the DfT etc and get them to confirm or deny what has been said

The answers given by tachograph & coffeeholic make perfect sense - if they did not then I would be posing some more questions

Ok you look at this then

you work for a company and in your 17 week reference point you work each week at 48 hour and there fore meet you average 48 hour week

you work for a company and in you 17 week period you work 16 weeks and have a week of holiday of 48 hours which is notional “working time” figures for any statutory annual leave and you do 40 hours for another employer you have gone over you WTD by 40 hours

this means that such leave cannot be used to offset hours actually worked

so the extra hours for some one else has to be add to you totals

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
Coffee as said on trucknet he is no expert on WTD

No, but I can read.

delboytwo:

A: When calculating average working time during a fixed reference period under the
Regulations, mobile workers are required to include notional “working time” figures for any
statutory annual leave (paid leave under the 1998 Working Time Regulations) sick leave,
maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave that they take. These notional figures are 8
hours per day and 48 hours per week. This means that such leave cannot be used to offset
hours actually worked.

Coffeeholic:
The 48 hour holiday thing is only there to prevent statutory annual leave being used to reduce a workers average over the reference period. It stops an employer forcing a worker to take holidays when they may not wish to in order to reduce their average.

Notional = not based on fact, not true, not actual

So when there is no work done because the driver is taking a weeks holiday the notional, not based on fact, not true, not actual, figures are used.

When the driver does some work for someone else during that week he informs his employer of the hours worked and the employer uses the factual, true, actual figures instead of the notional ones.

Really couldn’t be any simpler.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
this means that such leave cannot be used to offset hours actually worked

DEL LOOK OUT! You are at the wrong end of the stick mate, get hold of the other end quick.

What it actually means, actually as opposed to notionally, you cannot average 51 hours a week for 16 weeks then take a weeks holiday to bring it down to the required average of 48. This means an employer cannot make you work so your average is above 48 then insist you take some of your holiday to bring it in line.

[delboytwo]

Ok then so what you are saying is that the work for the other employer is counted as work and the holiday is discounted for the main employer

so how would the main employer explain to the governing body to say he worked in his hols for some one else

well sorry but you still have to show your driver was on holiday and that holiday as a notional mark in you figures all you do is add the hours he work for the other company to the totals.

cos if you do not you could be taken advantage off I.E. you work for one company that owns a other company

you take your holiday as per there give you work in the other company and those hours are extra work in the main company you work for as to show you have had you holiday if there put those hours in that week as work is say you did not have an holiday so if you did this 4 time in the year at the end of the year the firms records would show that no holiday was taken in that year which is a crime and the firm could be done for it under employment law

From 1 April 2009 payment in lieu cannot be provided for holidays over 20
days (for those working full-time).

just fond this that will make my point that all hour would be counted

Four weeks of this statutory annual leave entitlement stems from the European Working Time Directive 2003/88/EC and is provided for by Regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations. This leave must be treated as ‘neutral’ (i.e. treated as working time) for the purpose of calculating weekly working hours.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
Ok then so what you are saying is that the work for the other employer is counted as work and the holiday is discounted for the main employer

so how would the main employer explain to the governing body to say he worked in his hols for some one else

That’s a tough one. Oh, I know.

“The driver was on holiday that week but he informed me he undertook some work for someone else, 51 hours in fact and I have recorded them here.”

That should do it I think.

delboytwo:
well sorry but you still have to show your driver was on holiday and that holiday as a notional mark in you figures all you do is add the hours he work for the other company to the totals.

Del, there is no set way to record hours worked or holidays so there is nothing to say you cannot mark the week as holiday and then show the hours worked for someone else. Hey, you could mark those hours in a different coloured font

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
Ok then so what you are saying is that the work for the other employer is counted as work and the holiday is discounted for the main employer

so how would the main employer explain to the governing body to say he worked in his hols for some one else

That’s a tough one. Oh, I know.

“The driver was on holiday that week but he informed me he undertook some work for someone else, 51 hours in fact and I have recorded them here.”

That should do it I think.

delboytwo:
well sorry but you still have to show your driver was on holiday and that holiday as a notional mark in you figures all you do is add the hours he work for the other company to the totals.

Del, there is no set way to record hours worked or holidays so there is nothing to say you cannot mark the week as holiday and then show the hours worked for someone else. Hey, you could mark those hours in a different coloured font

i think we will have to agree to disagree

i say you would have to add them and i stand by that

you have your opinion that’s your choice its an open forum and each to there own way of thinking

or the best way to get it right is not work on your holiday cos what would the point of having the holiday you mite as well say at you main firm

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
or the best way to get it right is not work on your holiday cos what would the point of having the holiday you mite as well say at you main firm

You can’t, since the rule changes on holidays you have to take the time off, you can’t stay and work. What you do during your holiday is up to you and as long as there is nothing in your contract with your main employer to prevent it you can work for someone else, as long as you inform your main employer of the hours worked.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:
as long as you inform your main employer of the hours worked.

and those hours would be add to your totals just like i have been saying

you would have working time of 48 hours from you main employer which has to be counted as actual work and the other work you do would be add to you totals

This leave must be treated as ‘neutral’ (i.e. treated as working time) for the purpose of calculating weekly working hours

[rog]

What you are in effect saying Del is that a driver on a full weeks holiday (48 hours) from one company can ONLY work for another company (or agency) for a maximum of 12 hours in that holiday week because more than that would add up to more than the 60 maximum for any one week

Does that really seem realistic

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:
as long as you inform your main employer of the hours worked.

and those hours would be add to your totals just like i have been saying

Indeed they would.

delboytwo:
you would have working time of 48 hours from you main employer which has to be counted as actual work

No it wouldn’t. Remember your new favourite word, notational. Instead of using the not based on fact hours (notional) you use the ones based on fact instead.

delboytwo:

This leave must be treated as ‘neutral’ (i.e. treated as working time) for the purpose of calculating weekly working hours

When there are no actual working hours to prevent exploitation of the employee by the employer.

[delboytwo]

can i ask you this Coffeeholic please think on what i am saying and consider it as only record keeping

if as you say the 48 hour holiday from you main job is no longer holiday cos you have work for some one else in that time

how would that firm explain that in the week he was paid holiday pay and also now worked that week if the records were checked it would look like that the main employer as paid him in lu of the holiday and as you know you can’t be paid for you holidays any more you have to have your holidays and for the purpose of calculating the working time there added to the totals

This leave must be treated as ‘neutral’ (i.e. treated as working time) for the purpose of calculating weekly working hours

so any work for an other employer be it a week or a day would have to be added to the firms totals

so lets look at

3 drivers works for a company the same company

each driver works 48 hours every week for this explanation

driver 1 works all 17 week and has no holiday in that reference point 816 hour worked meets WTD

17 weeks x 48 hour worked = 816

driver 2 works all 16 weeks and as 1 week holiday in that reference point 816 hours worked meets WTD

16 week x 48 hours worked +48 hours for 1 weeks holiday = 816

driver 3 works 16 weeks and as 1 weeks holiday in the reference point 816 hours worked but as worked for an other company and work there for 48 hours

16 week x 48 hours worked +48 hours for 1 weeks holiday plus 48 hour other employment =864 hours worked not met WTD

if an employer was to change the driver time sheet it would be a crime as it is falsifying a statement of what an employee as done in the main firm he as had an holiday in the main company the work done in the other company is extra work and the driver as told his employer that he as done extra work

what the driver does in his holiday his up to them but if that work is in scope of the EU driving regs it is extra work and must be counted as such

consider this what would happen it the main employer was an agency would that agency put those hour as work for a holiday there have to give you, IMHO no there would not cos you could be working for them in your holiday or there could contract you out to an other agency to get out of giving you holidays

the purpose of a holiday for working time is to give you time to recuperate why would the give you a way to be paid extra without penalty you main firm can’t let you work on your holiday so why give you the ability to work for someone else on your holiday without penalty IMHO the penalty is the extra hour worked would be added to the totals

[rog]

delboytwo:
how would that firm explain that in the week he was paid holiday pay and also now worked that week if the records were checked it would look like that the main employer as paid him in lu of the holiday and as you know you can’t be paid for you holidays any more you have to have your holidays and for the purpose of calculating the working time there added to the totals

The DWP have tax records so, if necessary, they can be used as evidence that he worked for someone else during that period.
The name of the company(s) paying the driver during that week are also on the DWP records

[delboytwo]

ROG:

delboytwo:
how would that firm explain that in the week he was paid holiday pay and also now worked that week if the records were checked it would look like that the main employer as paid him in lu of the holiday and as you know you can’t be paid for you holidays any more you have to have your holidays and for the purpose of calculating the working time there added to the totals

The DWP have tax records so, if necessary, they can be used as evidence that he worked for someone else during that period.
The name of the company(s) paying the driver during that week are also on the DWP records

Rog tax records take up to a year to get to the tax office and i should know that cos i was working for a company that did not send mine in at all and i had to show the tax office the pay slips no records were found for me and i had worked there for 18 months
not even a p60 was on file

[rog]

Have any companies actually been asked to produce records for the authorites in regards to the WTD

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
can i ask you this Coffeeholic please think on what i am saying and consider it as only record keeping

if as you say the 48 hour holiday from you main job is no longer holiday cos you have work for some one else in that time

Doesn’t matter what you do during that week, provided you don’t work for your main employer it’s holiday from your main employment.

delboytwo:
how would that firm explain that in the week he was paid holiday pay and also now worked that week if the records were checked it would look like that the main employer as paid him in lu of the holiday

It would only be in lieu of holiday if he worked for his main employer. He has taken the holiday from his main job so there is nothing in lieu. The main employer is only paying him holiday pay for the period he is on holiday from them, nothing more.

delboytwo:

This leave must be treated as ‘neutral’ (i.e. treated as working time) for the purpose of calculating weekly working hours

To prevent using holiday to reduce the average, which wouldn’t be the case in this situation, there is no attempt to reduce the average.

delboytwo:
so any work for an other employer be it a week or a day would have to be added to the firms totals

Not the firms totals, the drivers totals. The totals are for a person not a firm.

delboytwo:
driver 1 works all 17 week and has no holiday in that reference point 816 hour worked meets WTD

17 weeks x 48 hour worked = 816

Agreed

delboytwo:
driver 2 works all 16 weeks and as 1 week holiday in that reference point 816 hours worked meets WTD

16 week x 48 hours worked +48 hours for 1 weeks holiday = 816

Agreed

delboytwo:
driver 3 works 16 weeks and as 1 weeks holiday in the reference point 816 hours worked but as worked for an other company and work there for 48 hours

16 week x 48 hours worked +48 hours for 1 weeks holiday plus 48 hour other employment =864 hours worked not met WTD

Don’t agree. There is no need to use the notational, not true hours, to prevent lowering the average because there are real hours which are used instead of fake ones. You only use the notational hours to prevent lowering of the average over the reference period when there are no real hours to use. With 48 real work hours to account for there will be no lowering of the average, so the safe guard is not required.

delboytwo:
if an employer was to change the driver time sheet it would be a crime as it is falsifying a statement of what an employee as done in the main firm he as had an holiday in the main company the work done in the other company is extra work and the driver as told his employer that he as done extra work

What time sheet needs changing? He is on holiday from his main job and his main employer records it as such. They also record the hours he told them he worked during that holiday for someone else and they update his WTD totals accordingly.

delboytwo:
what the driver does in his holiday his up to them but if that work is in scope of the EU driving regs it is extra work and must be counted as such

Not extra work, just work and needs to be recorded for the WTD and taken into account for weekly rest periods and driving totals for the EU regs as well.

delboytwo:
the purpose of a holiday for working time is to give you time to recuperate why would the give you a way to be paid extra without penalty you main firm can’t let you work on your holiday so why give you the ability to work for someone else on your holiday without penalty IMHO the penalty is the extra hour worked would be added to the totals

The purpose of the WTD is to prevent employers exploiting employees, it’s not about penalties. In this situation there is no exploitation and there is no need to use the anti exploitation notational hours for the4 holiday week as real hours can be used instead and no attempt to lower the average has taken place.