Click on the picture for an article by our very own Krankee who we despatched down to Newark to have a go !!
Nice report Ken, I’m full of envy, would love to have one more crack at one.
I didn’t realise that the axles on the first trailer were steered, that certainly would make it a lot more ‘urban’ friendly, but you’d be surprised how well the old fashioned trains used to follow. At our depot in Oz it was a fairly tight turn off the highway, then 5 more turns round the office/maintenance block to get fuelled up and then back on it, and that was with 3 or 4 trailers.
I suppose, looking back, that we had a fair old overhang over the back axle which, with the opposite swing, led the drawbar of the next trailer forward a certain way before it actually started turning.
A far sighted and comparatively environmentally friendly concept from Denby. Can’t see them getting anywhere in blinkered anti-truck Europe though. 
David, have you got a copy of Kurt Johannsen’s book “A Son of the Red Centre”, in which he describes designing and building his self-tracking trailers? I know you have the other book about the History of Roadtrains in the Northern Territory, I still haven’t found one at an acceptable price.
Anyway, here’s the geometry of Johannsen’s trailers in the 1940’s - the two pivot points on each trailer almost eliminated normal cut-in.
This reminds me of some tankers Harveys Sherry used on test in the 60s or 70s.
If I remember they were AEC Mamouth (8 wheelers) with a 5th wheel on the end and drew a normal artic trailer on the end of that. I believe they ran from Bristol to London.
In the early 60s the USAF used International artics pulling a trailer on behind from their bases in the Swindon area to Avonmouth to collect aviation fuel.
If anyone is familiar with Bath then you can imagine the chaos these caused, particularly the American vehicle’s.
I think on both occasions Bath Corporation complained and they stopped running.
I remeber reading about this vehicle a while back and fancied having a drive then still do now. I cannot understand why they don’t allow trucks like this on the roads you could get two 40 ft boxes on that. Which would halve the amount of trucks going down to Felixstowe of a night.
But of course that would halve the amont of drivers needed so what would our polish friends do then.
Sheeter:
David, have you got a copy of Kurt Johannsen’s book “A Son of the Red Centre”, in which he describes designing and building his self-tracking trailers? I know you have the other book about the History of Roadtrains in the Northern Territory, I still haven’t found one at an acceptable price.
I have Dave, but had forgotten all about that, there’s nothing new under the sun is there 
I’ll go back and have another look.
I got my ‘History’ from Ninehead back in the nineties. It didn’t cost that much I don’t think, do they not still sell it? I wrote to the author asking permission to use some stuff about the Macks and their quad boxes in my own book. Sadly he had just died but the Aussie publishers gave me the go ahead anyway. Pity I’ve never found the time to use it yet. 
Fine for the open spaces and distances in Australia, South Africa etc. BUT, where will they be used in this country or elsewhere in Europe? How many yards have room for them? How many RDCs have room for them? How many MSAs have room for them? Stability trials on flat surfaces are fine, but have they been tried on surfaces with the ever deepening tramlines that can easily throw artics off line? Won’t the cost of buying suitable land close to large cities outweigh any potential saving? Or will the second trailer just be abandoned in laybys while the first trailer is tipped the same as the drawbar lads do? They might be a great idea on paper but it’s the journey’s end that needs considering - not just the journey! And how long before somebody decides that double deckers would be even better - they should be fun a breeze!
Too big imho opinion.
Fine for say a run from the Tesco @ Dirft to another tesco DC located about 100m from the m’way. But you know some smart arse will try and make the vehicles do something that it is not designed for.
Got asked to put an artic into a builders yard today. Gate was 14ft wide. Road I had to reverse in off was about 42ft inc both pavements. Was in a 40ft trailer - tri axle
Not going to happen. SHould have sent a rigid or a draw bar to that place.
We’ve had bigger than this in here last week mate 
Surely these things are designed to force wages down?
Interesting article and interesting discussion followed by it. I’ll try to answer some questions which have raised and of course hope those answers induce even more debate.
knight:
I cannot understand why they don’t allow trucks like this on the roads you could get two 40 ft boxes on that.
If measurements of that concept vehicle are the same as in similar vehicles in use in Finland and Sweden you can’t get two 40 ft boxes on it. Maximum external length of cargo space is limited to 21.42 metres which allows 30 ft and 40 ft boxes to be carried simultaneously. That restriction was given by EU when Finland and Sweden joined to EU and both countries allowed longer than 18.75 metre long drawbar combinations (22 metres in Finland for A-frame drawbars and 24 metres in Sweden for any vehicle combination, even for an artic). Reasoning why restriction is 21.42 m is because that allows, according to EU, foreign operators to operate under same rules their own vehicles and it also allows these vehicles to be constructed from “standard” pieces (13.6 m long semi-trailer and 7.7 m long swap body).
Spardo:
I didn’t realise that the axles on the first trailer were steered, that certainly would make it a lot more ‘urban’ friendly, but you’d be surprised how well the old fashioned trains used to follow.
I think thats because Denby tries to stay within same limits as shorter vehicles. In those 25.25 m long vehicles allowed here steering axles on trailer are really rare sight but we have more loose restriction on those vehicles. Outer circle of those two concentric circles mentioned in the article is the same 12.5 metres but inner one has diameter of only 2.00 metres. As a sidenote in those 22.00 metres long a-frame drawbar combinations which were formerly longest allowed here the inner circle was 5.00 metres, only 30 cm less than required from 16.5 metres long artic. Not so awkward as some over there might think. 
Spardo:
I suppose, looking back, that we had a fair old overhang over the back axle which, with the opposite swing, led the drawbar of the next trailer forward a certain way before it actually started turning.
So true, and my personal but somewhat limited experiences also hint that artics do “cut” in corners almost as much as rigid with 7.7 m body towing a-frame trailer with 13.6 m long body.
Pop Larkin:
Stability trials on flat surfaces are fine, but have they been tried on surfaces with the ever deepening tramlines that can easily throw artics off line?
Some stability test were carried out by Finnish Ministry of Transport and Communication. As that publication is available only in Finnish I refer some main points about stability of different outfits. I think outfits most interesting in this context are 16.5 m long artic weighing 48 tonnes, 18.75 m long rigid with a-frame and mid-axle drawbars both weighing 40 tonnes and 25.25 m long rigid and a-frame drawbar combination weighing 60 tonnes. That Denby’s B-train type outfit wasn’t tested (I think it wasn’t legal in Finland at that time).
According to results most stabile outfit was 16.5 m long artic while wagon and mid-axle drawbar outfit came second having 13% worse stability than artic (don’t ask about what percentage means, it’s just what reads in the publication). 25.25 metres long a-frame drawbar combination came third having 23% worse stability than an artic and 18.75 meter long a-frame drawbar had 40% worse stability than an artic. There was also outfit where mid-axle trailer was coupled to normal artic and it had 34% worse stability than normal artic had.
If I had to gues about stability of that Denby’s outfits I’d guess it would fall somewhere around wagon and mid-axle drawbars stability. It definately would be better than similar lenght a-frame drawbar. As B-train’s pivot points are far between it hints for slow reaction to steering, like pointed out by Krankee.
Harry Monk:
Surely these things are designed to force wages down?
dunno, but if every truck carried twice as much you’d only need half the drivers 
bit like turkeys voting for xmas
Try parking one of those in a packed dark services at night in the rain !!!. I don’t think so some how. Do you?.
do some research on the use of B-Doubles in metropolitan areas of Australia, particularly Melbourne, they are fantastic to see in action when used properly, but I’ve seen some very distressed drivers trying to maneovre them around yards and streets that simply don’t provide the space, and I always think to myself, you couldnt honestly get me to do that for the extra dollar an hour they pay
in principle a good idea Robbos and Denby would have to spend some money and check out the routes they want to use them on and then pester the authorities to get the nod
Rikki-UK:
Click on the picture for an article by our very own Krankee who we despatched down to Newark to have a go !!
I did.
That’s an excellent report from Krankee and very understandable to a non-technicical donkey such as me!!
Having read the rest of the posts so far, and seeking a way forward for this combination, it leads me to some questions.
Would it be an idea to have an extra licence group, some training and a modified driving test to address the driver licencing concerns that the general public might have?? Maybe follow the idea that’s used in the Netherlands.
Would it be an idea to restrict such vehicles to certain roads and/or times of day?? Using the UK notion of night trunking using only motorways and certain “A” roads if depots are close to an exit might allay public fears.
I think Pop Larkin has hit the nail on the head by mentioning the wide open spaces of South Africa and Oz, but this idea might work if it could be adapted to suit conditions in the UK. Given that this vehicle is constructed from standard parts, the only things left lying around during the day would be the dollies. I’m with those who say that this is a good idea, provided that care is used in the drafting of the required Regulations that allow these vehicles to legally venture out onto the roads.
Sheeter:
Anyway, here’s the geometry of Johannsen’s trailers in the 1940’s - the two pivot points on each trailer almost eliminated normal cut-in.
That idea looks like it was closely copied by Jan de Rooy when he tried to bring his 60’ artics over here. Not really an artic but 2 drawbars carrying a 60’ body.
I wish ■■■■ Denby and Stan Robinson all the best but fear any public opposition will be strong. I was watching the normal doubles running last week on the Maasvlakte in Holland
However these showmans vehicles with 2 trailers are legal and normally driven by 15 year old kids 
Does anyone remember the Teesside police issuing permits to run the drawbar artics using heavy locomotive laws. Denby operated one of those too as did Les Harriman.
Wheel Nut:
[That idea looks like it was closely copied by Jan de Rooy when he tried to bring his 60’ artics over here. Not really an artic but 2 drawbars carrying a 60’ body.
with one hell of a front swing on it IIRC
Attention Coffeeholic …Urban myth alert The first one came off the boat in Dover couldn’t get around the roundabout to go up Jubilee so the plod put it back on the boat (remember that one Malc ■■)
Does anyone remember the Teesside police issuing permits to run the drawbar artics using heavy locomotive laws. Denby operated one of those too as did Les Harriman.
I remember seeing the article on them. All that buggering about so they could move European weighted trailers to the dock to go unaccompanied They ran on STGO plates IIRC 
(cue JJ72 for correction )
Smart thinking I suppose but just a shame the politicians won’t allow exemptions in common sense situations
TDG still run one which buzzes in and out of the docks with UBC boxes from Wilton…Under the same laws as everyone else now though, so it will no doubt will not be replaced when it finally meets it’s maker. One of our drivers used to drive the “■■■■ thing” (his description).
Yes. We were loading tank containers out of Seal Sands and dropping them outside and Harrimans would shunt them to the dock. At the other side normal trucks were backing under them and delivering them to Ludwigshafen.
That was until they relaxed the rules on intermodal and eventually allowed 44t on 6