Driving hours and multi-drop work

NEW AND WANNABE DRIVERS (INTERACTIVE)
1

OK, I’m sure this topic has probably been addressed before, so apologies for not reading the thousands of postings on this board. I’ve only got a couple of weeks driving under my belt, so am still a novice to this game.

While I understand the principles of driving hours/rest times etc, I am struggling to apply them in practice. I’ll give a few scenarios I’d like advice on.

  1. You’re driving through a city rush hour (in my case, London at 5pm on a Friday) and the tacho is telling you to take a break. Not knowing the area or where I can safely park, I continue until I can pull over without inconveniencing anyone. But, I’ve gone over the 4.5 hour limit. Should I just have stopped in the middle of Marble Arch?

  2. Multi-drop working. I understand that any break period must be continuous. So, given that you have a lot of drops to make, you want to use time at a client’s as a break (say the 15min one). After 10 minutes someone needs to move a car or get access with the result you need to move the truck. If your log only shows a 1 minute period of driving followed by a further 5 minutes of rest, would the boys and girls of VOSA penalise you for it? (A colleague told me he got fined £400 for taking a 44minute break.)

  3. I arrived at a client’s at 3am, parked up and went to bed. Instead of removing my card, I flicked it over to rest. At 8am, I was asked to move the truck into the yard so they could unload and reload. Meanwhile, I went back to bed until noon, getting my required 9 hours of rest. Now, if I were to have reset the ‘clock’, I would have been un-able to move until 5pm, which was out of the question as I had 2 drops to make that afternoon. I realise that, according to the strict letter of the law, that is what I should have done, but … What do you experienced folk do?

2

Cycleboy:
OK, I’m sure this topic has probably been addressed before, so apologies for not reading the thousands of postings on this board. I’ve only got a couple of weeks driving under my belt, so am still a novice to this game.

While I understand the principles of driving hours/rest times etc, I am struggling to apply them in practice. I’ll give a few scenarios I’d like advice on.

  1. You’re driving through a city rush hour (in my case, London at 5pm on a Friday) and the tacho is telling you to take a break. Not knowing the area or where I can safely park, I continue until I can pull over without inconveniencing anyone. But, I’ve gone over the 4.5 hour limit. Should I just have stopped in the middle of Marble Arch?

You should have realised that there was a chance that you’d get stuck in traffic and unable to have a break so you should have had the break before getting into that situation.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but that’s the way it is, you need to forward plan these things :wink:

Expect an infringement for exceeding the 4.5 hours driving time without a break :frowning:

Cycleboy:
2) Multi-drop working. I understand that any break period must be continuous. So, given that you have a lot of drops to make, you want to use time at a client’s as a break (say the 15min one). After 10 minutes someone needs to move a car or get access with the result you need to move the truck. If your log only shows a 1 minute period of driving followed by a further 5 minutes of rest, would the boys and girls of VOSA penalise you for it? (A colleague told me he got fined £400 for taking a 44minute break.)

You may get lucky and meet an understanding VOSA bod but do you really want to rely on luck, park where you won’t have to move or restart the break.
A 15 minute break is 15 minutes long not 5 minutes then another 10 minutes after moving the vehicle.
Look around you and think about the likely outcome of where you’re parking :wink:

If that break was required as part of a 45 minute break then you can expect an infringement for exceeding the 4.5 hours driving time without a proper break :frowning:

Cycleboy:
3) I arrived at a client’s at 3am, parked up and went to bed. Instead of removing my card, I flicked it over to rest. At 8am, I was asked to move the truck into the yard so they could unload and reload. Meanwhile, I went back to bed until noon, getting my required 9 hours of rest. Now, if I were to have reset the ‘clock’, I would have been un-able to move until 5pm, which was out of the question as I had 2 drops to make that afternoon. I realise that, according to the strict letter of the law, that is what I should have done, but … What do you experienced folk do?

You should have had your reduced daily rest period of 9 hours uninterrupted rest but you didn’t.

Expect an infringement for insufficient daily rest and possibly an infringement for exceeding the daily driving period limit of 9/10 hours :cry:

I realise that you’re new to this mate but you need to realise that neither VOSA or the police regard drivers hours as a joke or something you can abide by if it suites you.
You appear to be under the impression that the authorities give a ■■■■ about your problems, whilst you may get lucky and meet an understanding official you should not be relying on it :wink:

By the way when you say you flicked the tacho over to rest I assume you was using a digital tachograph, in which case you should have also put your end of shift location :wink:

3

Always plan ahead mate,
Shud have At 4 hrs drive time start looking for a place to park up, I know londons pretty ■■■■ for parking, but the rules are the rules. Vosa might let u off on the odd misdemeanour , but eventually they,ll come down on u like a tonne of bricks.
I don’t take breaks at clients yard, I always have em outside.
As for moving whilst on your daily rest, that’s a big no no ! Especially on a reduced daily rest 9 hours. U shud have said sorry mate can’t do it as I,m on my break and explained to them. Personally I always pull me card out at end of daily duty … then reinsert back in … when my daily rests up. if one of their guys wants to move it, its up to them to do it.u need to stop rushing about n think more, after all its ur licence mate.if u can’t make it round 2a drop, don’t worry about it, I’ve taken back plenty of loads but I don’t lose any sleep over it…

4

Thanks for the comments.

Obviously, if someone has more than one 44 minute break (or similar infringement) they are obviously sailing close to the wind. I had hoped the VOSA people understood the problems and could see when a driver wasn’t simply trying to bend the rules. However, I take the point that the rules are there for safety (amongst other things) so VOSA has to work to the rules as stated.

You appear to be under the impression that the authorities give a ■■■■ about your problems

Well, not really, but I had hoped that some common sense might have prevailed. My starting point was already in Brixton, so finding a suitable place to pull over wasn’t easy, as I don’t know London. But, as you said, better planning ahead would have been a good idea.

5

I can’t really better the advice given to you here, like aforementioned, at 4 hours driving time start thinking about somewhere to stop. At the end of the day, the law doesn’t state you MUST drive for 4 and a half hours and then stop, it states that you have 4 and a half hours driving time, and then after that you can’t take a break. This doesn’t mean the break must be taken bang on 4h 30m as i’m sure you’re aware.

6

Cycleboy:
Thanks for the comments.

Obviously, if someone has more than one 44 minute break (or similar infringement) they are obviously sailing close to the wind. I had hoped the VOSA people understood the problems and could see when a driver wasn’t simply trying to bend the rules. However, I take the point that the rules are there for safety (amongst other things) so VOSA has to work to the rules as stated.

You appear to be under the impression that the authorities give a ■■■■ about your problems

Well, not really, but I had hoped that some common sense might have prevailed. My starting point was already in Brixton, so finding a suitable place to pull over wasn’t easy, as I don’t know London. But, as you said, better planning ahead would have been a good idea.

When it comes to fixed penalties I’m not sure how much common sense is involved, like I said you can meet a decent understanding VOSA official or you may come up against someone who’s less than forgiving, pure luck really I guess.

The biggest problem you have here mate is that you have three infringements straight off, official type people may be inclined to be sympathetic towards the odd infringement especially as you’re a new driver, but there appears to be a pattern of infringements forming and that will not go down well, add to that the fact that they are of the serious type infringements, excess driving time without the correct break, insufficient daily rest and it doesn’t look good even for a new driver.

If they were WTD infringements it wouldn’t matter so much apart from to your boss but driving time and rest infringements are to be avoided where-ever possible.

For the time you were stuck in London do a printout and write an explanation on it to explain that you couldn’t find anywhere to stop and have a break then sign it, this will at-least show that you understand that you failed to comply with the break requirements but it couldn’t be avoided, in fact I suggest you do two printouts and do manual entries on them both, hand one in when your card is downloaded and keep one with you in case you get stopped, a bit of damage limitation can’t hurt :wink:

By the way I see you registered today so welcome to Trucknet-UK :wink:

7

Many years before I got my HGV licence, I got stuck for 2 hours in traffic on a motorway. Not much chance to pull over and park up there. True, we were not moving, so you could turn off your engine. However, you don’t know in advance how long the hold-up will be.

8

Cycleboy:
Many years before I got my HGV licence, I got stuck for 2 hours in traffic on a motorway. Not much chance to pull over and park up there. True, we were not moving, so you could turn off your engine. However, you don’t know in advance how long the hold-up will be.

New or not, if you are on your 9 hour break, you tell people they have to wait your on daily rest … you knew this and still moved intrupting your 9 hour rest if I was Vosa or Police I would be looking at you getting a fine as others have said there is a pattern forming with you and it is not a good one …
re the motorway stuck for 2 hours not a problem, you are allowed to come off at next exit find a place of safety to take a break, but if you were stuck on the motorway for 2 hours and put it on rest and didnt move it would not of mattered would it … I think you need to go do a Tacho course as part of your DCPC as you obviously are trying to plead ignorant to the law.

9

if you were stuck on the motorway for 2 hours and put it on rest and didn’t move it would not have mattered would it

True, but you don’t know in advance how long the traffic will remain stationary. Still, if the traffic moved after 35 minutes, I guess you’d just have to pull off and take a full 45 minute break.

I think you need to go do a Tacho course as part of your DCPC as you obviously are trying to plead ignorant to the law.

Quite the contrary, but I am trying to work out it’s application. However, as you say, a tacho course would be a good idea, as it was not part of the training I got.

10

there is a pattern forming with you

No need to become abusive. Surely, the simple fact that I’m on this forum trying to sort out the problems I’ve encountered proves that it’s not my intention to break the rules, but to work out strategies to abide by them. I’ve already learned of one way to manage the 45 minute break so that I don’t end up with a situation that happened on my last job: I told the boss I couldn’t leave when he wanted because I had to take my break. Clearly, as he looked a little put out (though didn’t say anything), he was under the misapprehension that I should have already taken it.

11

how can “you are forming a pattern” be abusive?? you come on the forum and ask advice … you are getting basics wrong and it is not once if you are unable to plan your day it is not good parking in front of cars that need to move that is simple mistakes … moving your truck on your 9 hour rest is a no no

12

I don’t think Cycleboy is questioning the fact that he’s made mistakes, that appears to be why he’s come here and asked the questions, we all had to learn at some point so it seems reasonable to me that he should seek advise from people who’ve been doing the job for some time.

Certainly some of the questions are a bit basic but better to ask than remain silent and this is the newbie forum after-all, though frankly even in the Safety and Law forum it’s better to ask than remain silent and continue making mistakes that could eventually cost the job :wink:

As far as doing a tacho course is concerned I would say it’s better to come to Trucknet-UK and ask the questions, on a course if the instructor doesn’t know what he’s talking about the pupil ends up believing a load of crap that he’s been taught, if he’s given wrong information here someone will nearly always quickly correct it.

13

Give it time and you’ll get the hang of it. There are other aids around to assist you if you care to try them. The Truckers Handbook (Haynes?) is around and it worthy to keep in your work bag.

If you’ve got an Android PDA/phone then there is some software for truckers. TruckTimer I think it’s called, it has been mentioned on here a fair bit.

It is easier to plan things with a digi tacho but you might also get the feeling that you’re cheating the company out of working or driving time by looking for a break after only 4 hours of driving when you could be wasting that other half hour.

But when you think what could go wrong, whilst you are starting it is wise to build in some leeway into your times, even more when you’re travelling in a large city.

We’ve all driven close to the edge, but even I would shy away for driving for the last 10 minutes of the driving slot UNLESS I knew for definite there was a suitable place ahead within that time, but the general advice is, whilst you’re new at this, to have that buffer.

As for taking a break at customers property; if there is space, so be it. Sometimes outside there might be double yellow lines and thus you couldn’t stop there and then you’d be stuffed. You are well within your rights to ask the person asking you to move to wait a couple of minutes, you can even joke about it and say it’s all tracked in the cab and you’d get fined if you moved.

My only overnights so far have been in paper tacho equipped trucks, so it would be card out at night, but take the advice of others on here, otherwise the stress will get you. It’ll creep up and paint your feet blue in the night and steal all your underwea… oh, no, sorry, that’s something else… :unamused: :open_mouth: :laughing: :sunglasses: :sunglasses:

Congrats on doing multidrop in London. I try to avoid that if I can :smiley:

14

So to surmise, after 4.5 hrs culmination of driving you need to take a 45 minute break.

After the second 4.5 hour driving slot you can drive for another hour AFTER another 45 minute break 2 or 3 times a week. I always get that one mixed up :blush:

Coupled in with that after you have been working for 6 hours you must take a 15 minute break and, I think, a further 15 minute break every 3 hours after.

The first two statements are driving hours regulations and the third paragraph relates to the working time directive (WTD).

There are plenty of threads here on driver hours, arguments, breaks, more arguments, and good knowledgeable advice and it is possible to learn by osmosis but it’s nicer if you take place :smiley:

Whatever you do, don’t mention you’re a cyclist… Oops :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

15

Dented:
So to surmise, after 4.5 hrs culmination of driving you need to take a 45 minute break.

After the second 4.5 hour driving slot you can drive for another hour AFTER another 45 minute break 2 or 3 times a week. I always get that one mixed up :blush:

Coupled in with that after you have been working for 6 hours you must take a 15 minute break and, I think, a further 15 minute break every 3 hours after.

The first two statements are driving hours regulations and the third paragraph relates to the working time directive (WTD).

There are plenty of threads here on driver hours, arguments, breaks, more arguments, and good knowledgeable advice and it is possible to learn by osmosis but it’s nicer if you take place :smiley:

Whatever you do, don’t mention you’re a cyclist… Oops :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

RTWTD breaks are covered by the Tacho driving breaks unless at any point you get to a total of 6 hours work (driving + other work) without a break

A 10 hour driving day which is max of 2 in a fixed week (sunday midnight to sunday midnight) can be 4 hours with a 45 break - 3 hours with a 45 break and then another 3 hours or, for example, 2 45 4 45 4 and the 45s can be 15 + 30

16

Many thanks for all the advice guys. One of the difficulties I felt was that I would be given far more drops than I could do. Perhaps the regular driver knew where the delivery bays were at each drop but, as an agency driver, I didn’t and had to spend time trying to locate them. If I was half way through the day and only delivered a quarter of the loads, I would feel I hadn’t pulling my weight, which would then lead me into trouble. Being the new kid on the block, I didn’t (don’t) have the experience to know when and how to stand my ground. I am long enough in the tooth to know that there are occasions when rules are not really meant to be followed (eg the ‘working to rule’ protests of the 70s) so wasn’t sure precisely where the line was drawn.

Whatever you do, don’t mention you’re a cyclist.

Many years ago a friend had the side of his car torn up by the trailer wheels of an artic. It was a big enough roundabout for the driver to have gotten round without hitting my friend, so it wasn’t really my friend’s fault. Even so, ever since then I’ve never pulled alongside a truck when manoeuvres are on the cards.

As for cycling, I don’t pull alongside any vehicle, unless I have a clear escape route. Seeing muppets cycling without lights and pulling all sorts of dangerous stunts really irks me. I don’t really care if they want to kill themselves, but it’s the affect it will have on the poor drivers… Don’t really understand how so many cyclists get away without having lights. Rant off.