Drivers hours regs pre 1985/ or pre EU era

[butcher]

Guys. I came into driving trucks well into my thirties, I’m 54 now.
Just a trivial query really, but what hours and breaks were required by drivers in the UK, prior to the introduction of the paper charts pre 1985?

I half remember my late Dad in the 1970s filling out a log book when I used to accompany him on school holidays in his Bedford TK.

I’m fully aware that some drivers had “two” log books, and why they had “two”. But in general, what were the regs prior to EU standards?

Any help please.

Thanks in advance chaps.

[gidders]

If I recall correctly from when I started in 1968,regs were as follows;
Max spreadover 12hrs.30mins.i.e.if you start at 6am you finish at 6.30pm.
Max duty time was 11 hours.
Max driving time was 10 hours.
That’s it really.Not too complicated.Yes,we did have self written log books to complete as the day went on.
I managed to stick it all out until the driver cpc became compulsory and retired.No regrets at all.

[carryfast]

From memory EU regs and with them tachos were in place before 1985.Domestic ran/runs in parallel with EU regs then and since.With the definition of domestic,for some reason just applying to council drivers etc,like myself at the time.As opposed to what would be expected in anyone limited to national ( domestic ) operations.

Domestic regs were superior in regards to both flexibility of driving time and more power in the drivers’ favour in terms of daily rest and breaks.IE ‘sufficient rest’ allowed for more arguable terms than 9 hours minimum does and log books meant the guvnor didn’t have a clue as to a driver taking extra break and booking it as duty or driving.Probably the best possible scenario now at least being a return to domestic regs with a 12 hour minimum daily rest period which is more or less how domestic regs usually worked out in practice anyway.

[jfc999]

Started on buses in 1974 and I think it was max 11hrs drive 1/2 hr break after 4 spread over (it had a definition then) was 14 hrs
All times subject to correction for dementia and Alzheimer’s etc
Started on wagons 1978 on log books and hours were similar to above but driving time down to 9
When tacos first came in I’m sure attics were different to rigids but can’t remember how.
Well that’s my ten pennorth for what it’s worth comments and corrections welcome.
Jim
Ps spellcheck doesn’t like tachos

[carryfast-yeti]

Gidders:
If I recall correctly from when I started in 1968,regs were as follows;
Max spreadover 12hrs.30mins.i.e.if you start at 6am you finish at 6.30pm.
Max duty time was 11 hours.
Max driving time was 10 hours.
That’s it really.Not too complicated.Yes,we did have self written log books to complete as the day went on.
I managed to stick it all out until the driver cpc became compulsory and retired.No regrets at all.

sounds about right.night trunking early '80’s was 8 hours max driving.
previous to that,in the log book days,wasn’t there a maximum mileage you could do,281 miles perhaps?

[uncleskid]

JFC999:
Started on buses in 1974 and I think it was max 11hrs drive 1/2 hr break after 4 spread over (it had a definition then) was 14 hrs
All times subject to correction for dementia and Alzheimer’s etc
Started on wagons 1978 on log books and hours were similar to above but driving time down to 9
When tacos first came in I’m sure attics were different to rigids but can’t remember how.
Well that’s my ten pennorth for what it’s worth comments and corrections welcome.
Jim
Ps spellcheck doesn’t like tachos

Or artics

[jfc999]

Well spotted Sid.

[robroy]

Gidders:
If I recall correctly from when I started in 1968,regs were as follows;
Max spreadover 12hrs.30mins.i.e.if you start at 6am you finish at 6.30pm.
Max duty time was 11 hours.
Max driving time was 10 hours.
That’s it really.Not too complicated.Yes,we did have self written log books to complete as the day went on.
.

I started 11 years after you in 79, and I think you have got it about right.
A much simpler system as opposed to the unneccesarilly over complicated cluster ■■■■ that it is today.
As far as I remember I first used tachos in 81 with the same regs being used.
Another bonus at that time with those hours was the vast majority of us were paid time and half after 40, so the system worked well with that structure…(not to mention the habitual bent running which was epidemic at that time., definitely would not want to go back to all that ■■■■)

So then the ‘‘Week and three quarters work in a week’’ system we have now came in (I was an o/driver at the time so it was ok by me then) and employers found that the time and a half system paid us ‘too much’ in their eyes, so we were all conned in different ways drip feed style over the years, to accept more per hour and over more hours at single time.
So the drivers like turkeys voting for Xmas went along with it, …thinking ’ Hey this bottom line is great’’ but too bloody thick to see they worked a ridiculous amount of hours to achieve it…come to think of it nothing has changed among many drivers today in that respect, in the ''Too thick to realise it ''dept when it comes to pay per hours worked ratio.

[juddian]

I started in 76, as above 12.5 hour spreadover.
I seem to recall it being an 11 hour daily rest period too, forgotten what the other bits were but is a bloody lot less complicated and a much nicer way of working, leading to drivers being more social than they are now, helped cos we were usually in digs overnight so a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

Where the mileage limit bit came in was when they bullied (that should have told us all we needed to know about what the EU would mean) operators into adopting the tachograph by imposing a 281 mile daily limit if you didn’t immediately bend over fully lubed and fit tachos, that would have been around '79 i reckons.

[robroy]

Juddian:
a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

That’s the thing today Juddian, ‘‘they’’ have got most drivers today brainwashed into a work/sleep neo endurance test scenario, where they simply ‘must’ have the minimum rest allowed, and look upon the 9 off as a target rather than the minimum allowed.

So then they say ‘‘I come here to work to make money, bring on the long hours’’ blissfully unaware that their pay structure is purposely geared that way by ‘‘them’’ again, to do just that, and at the same time make them actually believe they are on a ‘‘good wage’’ clever eh?

I still try and maintain an element of social life in the job, the type you mention, (OK, granted not as much as I did years ago beer and clubs and all the rest of it …that I am sure you remember ) if only to stop me from going completely ■■■■ crazy.
Even if I am looked upon as the biggest criminal since Himmler by some characters on here if I dare to say I have a pint a couple of times a week on nights out. shock ■■■■ horror.

I parked next to a young lad last week at Exeter who asked me if it was safe parking on there, we got talking and I mentioned there was a good pub up the road that done a Steak and chips and a pint for a tenner.
He looked at me a bit puzzled, and said ‘I would never think of going to the pub tbh, but yeh I’ll join you’’ (that is how it has become ) we had the meals and 2 pints each and a good conversation.

He actually said ‘Thanks mate’ when we got back as if it was something out of the ordinary (good shag btw…I’m joking, I’M JOKING !! )

You see my point though don’t you, how drivers and driver’s attitudes and their approach to the job have changed over the years, a bit sad really, lay by, curtains round, 9 off and away.

[evil8beezle]

It’s hard to disagree with the whole pay structure now being geared towards having to work silly hours to get a decent wage, and for that I blame the culture today of working overtime for anything other than time and a half… But it’s not only the transport industry, it’s just the way things are now! Personally I’d like to have overtime rigidly set at time and a half, as I think that alone would help bring down a lot of drivers hours. Firms will happily work an employee almost to death, as those extra hours don’t really cost them any extra. But I’m sure they’d have a different opinion if the overheads were higher…

[wirksworth_rod]

robroy:

Juddian:
a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

That’s the thing today Juddian, ‘‘they’’ have got most drivers today brainwashed into a work/sleep neo endurance test scenario, where they simply ‘must’ have the minimum rest allowed, and look upon the 9 off as a target rather than the minimum allowed.

So then they say ‘‘I come here to work to make money, bring on the long hours’’ blissfully unaware that their pay structure is purposely geared that way by ‘‘them’’ again, to do just that, and at the same time make them actually believe they are on a ‘‘good wage’’ clever eh?

I still try and maintain an element of social life in the job, the type you mention, (OK, granted not as much as I did years ago beer and clubs and all the rest of it …that I am sure you remember ) if only to stop me from going completely [zb] crazy.
Even if I am looked upon as the biggest criminal since Himmler by some characters on here if I dare to say I have a pint a couple of times a week on nights out. shock [zb] horror.

I parked next to a young lad last week at Exeter who asked me if it was safe parking on there, we got talking and I mentioned there was a good pub up the road that done a Steak and chips and a pint for a tenner.
He looked at me a bit puzzled, and said ‘I would never think of going to the pub tbh, but yeh I’ll join you’’ (that is how it has become ) we had the meals and 2 pints each and a good conversation.

He actually said ‘Thanks mate’ when we got back as if it was something out of the ordinary (good shag btw…I’m joking, I’M JOKING !! )

You see my point though don’t you, how drivers and driver’s attitudes and their approach to the job have changed over the years, a bit sad really, lay by, curtains round, 9 off and away.

first night out when i was a lad was worcester to drivers came over and said are you comeing to the drivers pub it was the blue dollfin not meney drivers pubs now rob shame some good nights to be had then

[rjan]

robroy:
Another bonus at that time with those hours was the vast majority of us were paid time and half after 40, so the system worked well with that structure…(not to mention the habitual bent running which was epidemic at that time., definitely would not want to go back to all that [zb])

So then the ‘‘Week and three quarters work in a week’’ system we have now came in (I was an o/driver at the time so it was ok by me then) and employers found that the time and a half system paid us ‘too much’ in their eyes

Overtime rates always did pay too much in the bosses’ eyes. The reason they paid it is because organised workers in all occupations fought for a standard 40-hour week, and the overtime premiums were to recognise the social value of your leisure time (which is forfeited by doing overtime work), as well as encouraging bosses to employ enough workers for the workload.

In an industry where drivers now routinely seem to have no outside interests (not their wives, their children, the pub, nor playing footy), and to want the maximum working hours possible, there is no reason to pay an overtime rate, because drivers themselves no longer assert (even in their own minds or amongst themselves) that their home and leisure time has a value, nor that their bosses should be encouraged to hire more drivers.

That being the case, which it wasn’t for most of the 20th century, why would bosses pay overtime rates now?

[robroy]

Rjan:

robroy:
Another bonus at that time with those hours was the vast majority of us were paid time and half after 40, so the system worked well with that structure…(not to mention the habitual bent running which was epidemic at that time., definitely would not want to go back to all that [zb])

So then the ‘‘Week and three quarters work in a week’’ system we have now came in (I was an o/driver at the time so it was ok by me then) and employers found that the time and a half system paid us ‘too much’ in their eyes

Overtime rates always did pay too much in the bosses’ eyes. The reason they paid it is because organised workers in all occupations fought for a standard 40-hour week, and the overtime premiums were to recognise the social value of your leisure time (which is forfeited by doing overtime work), as well as encouraging bosses to employ enough workers for the workload.

In an industry where drivers now routinely seem to have no outside interests (not their wives, their children, the pub, nor playing footy), and to want the maximum working hours possible, there is no reason to pay an overtime rate, because drivers themselves no longer assert (even in their own minds or amongst themselves) that their home and leisure time has a value, nor that their bosses should be encouraged to hire more drivers.

That being the case, which it wasn’t for most of the 20th century, why would bosses pay overtime rates now?

I agree with that.
All the terms, conditions, benefits and working practices that our fathers and grandfathers fought tooth and nail for have all been handed back vouluntarily on a plate, to the point where we are almost back to Victorian times… in terms of workers rights, or lack of them.

Mention a Union on here and you are looked upon and reacted to as if you are promoting paedophilia.
The word ‘union’ in terms of a Trade Union, is a dirty word to some, however I can see why up to a point btw.

I do not want to start a Carryfastesque reference to the 70 but that is what most people associate Trade Unions with.

Unless we are a union (with a small u) where we are together as a one voice, we will always continue to be ■■■■ on from a great height and ‘kept in our place’ end of.

Unfortunately it will never happen for the following reasons.

Most have mortgages around their necks, so any form of defiance in terms of ind action is out of the window (Again sounding like Carryfast, Thatcher was very clever with that one )

Others just bend over trouserless whatever they are told to do end of.

The high contingent of spineless ‘Yes men’ in the job do not help the rest of us by any means either.

So that’s it in a nutshell.
So as far as going back to time and a half, and finally stopping working bloody ridiculous long hours for next to ■■■■ all, we are all going to have to continue to smile and ■■■■ it up.

Unfortunately because of all this, the rest of us adapt the only other option, …a carry on with a ‘look after no.1 policy’ and we can (and do, trust me) gain respect. … while taking the ■■■■ out of the others in the same co. that are ■■■■■■ about daily on a regular basis, and/or treated like schoolboys.

[bluey_circles]

Juddian:
I started in 76, as above 12.5 hour spreadover.
I seem to recall it being an 11 hour daily rest period too, forgotten what the other bits were but is a bloody lot less complicated and a much nicer way of working, leading to drivers being more social than they are now, helped cos we were usually in digs overnight so a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

Where the mileage limit bit came in was when they bullied (that should have told us all we needed to know about what the EU would mean) operators into adopting the tachograph by imposing a 281 mile daily limit if you didn’t immediately bend over fully lubed and fit tachos, that would have been around '79 i reckons.

They must have been fitting Tachos prior to 79. My very first truck that I bought in 1980 was a T reg (so 1978?) and that came with a Tacho

[robroy]

Bluey Circles:

Juddian:
I started in 76, as above 12.5 hour spreadover.
I seem to recall it being an 11 hour daily rest period too, forgotten what the other bits were but is a bloody lot less complicated and a much nicer way of working, leading to drivers being more social than they are now, helped cos we were usually in digs overnight so a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

Where the mileage limit bit came in was when they bullied (that should have told us all we needed to know about what the EU would mean) operators into adopting the tachograph by imposing a 281 mile daily limit if you didn’t immediately bend over fully lubed and fit tachos, that would have been around '79 i reckons.

They must have been fitting Tachos prior to 79. My very first truck that I bought in 1980 was a T reg (so 1978?) and that came with a Tacho

Think my first TK Bedford in 79 which was a R reg 77 had a tacho fitted, but we were using log books then.
I also got a brand new FIAT 190 30 which was 1980 T reg, that did not have a tacho fitted, so it all depended on the manufacturers at the time reckon.
I remember taking a course on Tacho use at National Carriers in 81, and the first tacho I used was on one of their Sed Atk units.

[juddian]

Bluey Circles:

Juddian:
I started in 76, as above 12.5 hour spreadover.
I seem to recall it being an 11 hour daily rest period too, forgotten what the other bits were but is a bloody lot less complicated and a much nicer way of working, leading to drivers being more social than they are now, helped cos we were usually in digs overnight so a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

Where the mileage limit bit came in was when they bullied (that should have told us all we needed to know about what the EU would mean) operators into adopting the tachograph by imposing a 281 mile daily limit if you didn’t immediately bend over fully lubed and fit tachos, that would have been around '79 i reckons.

They must have been fitting Tachos prior to 79. My very first truck that I bought in 1980 was a T reg (so 1978?) and that came with a Tacho

Yes i’m sure some of the lorries i used with log books had tachos fitted, but the 281 mile limit with log book was to force operators to use them and have them retro fitted if not already in.

Some of you must remember the bloody odd places tachograph units ended up in the cab when they were too big to fit in the standard dash panel.

[radar19]

Evil8Beezle:
It’s hard to disagree with the whole pay structure now being geared towards having to work silly hours to get a decent wage, and for that I blame the culture today of working overtime for anything other than time and a half… But it’s not only the transport industry, it’s just the way things are now! Personally I’d like to have overtime rigidly set at time and a half, as I think that alone would help bring down a lot of drivers hours. Firms will happily work an employee almost to death, as those extra hours don’t really cost them any extra. But I’m sure they’d have a different opinion if the overheads were higher…

Funny you mention that, one of our rigid drivers is effectively retired now due to a heart attack (thats what the talk of the yard is at the moment).

[priest]

robroy:
Most have mortgages around their necks, so any form of defiance in terms of ind action is out of the window (Again sounding like Carryfast, Thatcher was very clever with that one )

the ultimate evolution of capitalism is slavery, not physical but financial slavery as per the modern world

CF number two

[dieseldog999]

Juddian:

Bluey Circles:

Juddian:
I started in 76, as above 12.5 hour spreadover.
I seem to recall it being an 11 hour daily rest period too, forgotten what the other bits were but is a bloody lot less complicated and a much nicer way of working, leading to drivers being more social than they are now, helped cos we were usually in digs overnight so a pint and a chin wag was a normal night out, not plugging in for a 9 hour recharge like they’re battery powered the way it s for some locked in their tin can prison cell.

Where the mileage limit bit came in was when they bullied (that should have told us all we needed to know about what the EU would mean) operators into adopting the tachograph by imposing a 281 mile daily limit if you didn’t immediately bend over fully lubed and fit tachos, that would have been around '79 i reckons.

They must have been fitting Tachos prior to 79. My very first truck that I bought in 1980 was a T reg (so 1978?) and that came with a Tacho

Yes i’m sure some of the lorries i used with log books had tachos fitted, but the 281 mile limit with log book was to force operators to use them and have them retro fitted if not already in.

Some of you must remember the bloody odd places tachograph units ended up in the cab when they were too big to fit in the standard dash panel.

through the mists of time,i remember getting a new transcontinental with a tacho fitted in 76…i only remember cos the reg was lhs 150 p…going into load at the shell oil depot in Trafford park and the union jobsworths refusing to load me unless I droped the trailer outside,then let finnys who I was subbing from take it in,load it,handballing 45 gallon drums ffs,smaller stuff on top,then sheeting it and bringing it outside for me to rope off and head up the road…and the 281 miles was only relevant if you filled I your starting place before you finished(assuming you only used 1 book at a time)…