tommy t:
Happy Keith:
‘…How come the rest of our nation’s drivers are afforded liberal habits to breed amongst them but I’m compulsorily being nannied?…’Agreed, But … what utter bull manure
The irony is that we (both as a nation and as blokes in the transport industry) seemingly perpetuate it by endorsing EU supporting parties to rule over us from Brussels via Westminster!
Are we all asleep?
Happy Keith:
tommy t:
Happy Keith:
‘…How come the rest of our nation’s drivers are afforded liberal habits to breed amongst them but I’m compulsorily being nannied?…’Agreed, But … what utter bull manure
The irony is that we (both as a nation and as blokes in the transport industry) seemingly perpetuate it by endorsing EU supporting parties to rule over us from Brussels via Westminster!
Are we all asleep?
Actually our lords and masters in Brussels are mainly unelected burocrats, each have thier own agenda for the benefit of thier own country. The so called european parliment to which we cana ctually vote members onto, is toothless and powerless. The European commision, for who we don’t have the chance to vote for, is the real power base.
hitler would have only one complaint about the current EU, we don’t all speak German!
i am an owner driver on a permenent contract i went to college after work for two years to get my cpc .Now i have to go on this course PAY for it LOOSE 5 days pay and also then PAY a driver to drive my truck for the time i dont work what a joke.
Rob K:
Anyway if it’s being organised by Tozer then it’s guaranteed to come to nothing. He talks a good story and is highly experienced at sending ‘Happy Keith’ style letters to all and sundry to “open channels” but that’s always where it ends.
at least hes trying to do something, rather than just watch and let it happen, and it proves that truckers dont stuck together in anything!!! seems to me all the truckers are about as united as the miners were at the end of the strike!!
we need a bit of the french attitude, them lads dont lay down and take it, they take the fight to the streets…
A l c:
i am an owner driver on a permenent contract i went to college after work for two years to get my cpc .Now i have to go on this course PAY for it LOOSE 5 days pay and also then PAY a driver to drive my truck for the time i dont work what a joke.
Any one with over 15 years experiance driving in the transport industry should be exempt from this ridiculous piece of legislation.
There has been quite a few responses against the CPC on the cabinet website but unfortunately it is only a drop in the ocean it needs many more to voice their opinion against it.
Have your say here > redtapechallenge.cabinetoffi … k/freight/
moomooland:
‘… Any one with over 15 years experience driving in the transport industry should be exempt from this ridiculous piece of legislation … it needs many more to voice their opinion against it …’
The biggest hurdle to overcome in achieving the suggestion is that we’ve already been granted Grandfather Rights - which are still due to run out in 2014. That date being ‘miles away’ is likely to diminish anyone’s ambition to do much about it now.
Part of my strategy has been to go from working as a Ltd Co into being employed and let the company pay to ‘educate’ me whilst I won’t lose both wages & a week’s worth of training fees.
Never forget that the driver’s CPC a European Union con and is thus endorsed by your MP
I joined this site around 2004 and have always said that training is needed for drivers, never once have I said we are too good to need anymore training. Myself and poor Mal used to carry out regular verbal assaults on each other.
I am against the DCPC in its present format and think it was me who suggested it was a quango, job for the boys when Skills for Logistics and JAUPT were formed.
Trucker Jon has covered all of the points in his very good blog, but my feeling is that it is too late. It is that reason that a march and protest will only give us more bad press, the public already hate us, they get held up by us when they are late for work. The belief is that trucks are smelly dirty smoke belching monsters when in reality they are amongst the cleanest on the road, emission wise and energy wise.
A sports motorcycle will do about 40mpg, our Renault Megane does about 60mpg. The bike weighs 180kg, the car is 1200kg Yet a 44 tonne vehicle can regularly get 9mpg. But part of the Driver CPC is about economical driving. It is the public that need the economy drive. It is the public who need educating.
A lorry driver who drives a container from Felixstowe to a customer will know how to secure the container to the trailer, yet he has no knowledge of its contents, he has no input into how it is loaded or how the load is secured, but he has to learn from the equivalent of a childrens toybox how to use, spansets, ratchets, ropes and sylvesters.
I have been fortunate and done many types of haulage, but why does a tanker driver know how to secure timber? The whole thing has been ill thought out. I can go and do five sessions of training and the only criteria I would look at is the cost of each tranche.
£75 to learn how to ■■■■ eggs or 250 quid on a SAFED course?
nationallgv.co.uk/#/safed-tr … 4540773956 
It isn’t going to make me any more money so I will go for the cheapest course I can find and listen to someone who has simply paid JAUPT to be a teacher. He doesnt need any qualifications. My qualifications speak for themself, 35 years in paid employ in the exciting road transport industry 
By the way Jon, your Russian blog and the car name thread were the funniest thing I have read for ages, but I still won’t be joining your march mate. 
moomooland:
Any one with over 15 years experiance driving in the transport industry should be exempt from this ridiculous piece of legislation.
I’ve got over 27 years experience in this industry and I disagree. I am doing my first training session on Friday and getting paid for sitting down and just listening. It was either that or drive to Manchester and back so it’s money for old rope, “Good times”.
Hopefully those people who are against the dcpc will stick to their word come 2014.
Saaamon:
Hopefully those people who are against the dcpc will stick to their word come 2014.
Indeed, hopefully leading to a considerable pay increase.
Wheel Nut:
I joined this site around 2004 and have always said that training is needed for drivers, never once have I said we are too good to need anymore training. Myself and poor Mal used to carry out regular verbal assaults on each other.I am against the DCPC in its present format and think it was me who suggested it was a quango, job for the boys when Skills for Logistics and JAUPT were formed.
Trucker Jon has covered all of the points in his very good blog, but my feeling is that it is too late. It is that reason that a march and protest will only give us more bad press, the public already hate us, they get held up by us when they are late for work. The belief is that trucks are smelly dirty smoke belching monsters when in reality they are amongst the cleanest on the road, emission wise and energy wise.
A sports motorcycle will do about 40mpg, our Renault Megane does about 60mpg. The bike weighs 180kg, the car is 1200kg Yet a 44 tonne vehicle can regularly get 9mpg. But part of the Driver CPC is about economical driving. It is the public that need the economy drive. It is the public who need educating.
A lorry driver who drives a container from Felixstowe to a customer will know how to secure the container to the trailer, yet he has no knowledge of its contents, he has no input into how it is loaded or how the load is secured, but he has to learn from the equivalent of a childrens toybox how to use, spansets, ratchets, ropes and sylvesters.
I have been fortunate and done many types of haulage, but why does a tanker driver know how to secure timber? The whole thing has been ill thought out. I can go and do five sessions of training and the only criteria I would look at is the cost of each tranche.
£75 to learn how to ■■■■ eggs or 250 quid on a SAFED course?
nationallgv.co.uk/#/safed-tr … 4540773956It isn’t going to make me any more money so I will go for the cheapest course I can find and listen to someone who has simply paid JAUPT to be a teacher. He doesnt need any qualifications. My qualifications speak for themself, 35 years in paid employ in the exciting road transport industry
By the way Jon, your Russian blog and the car name thread were the funniest thing I have read for ages, but I still won’t be joining your march mate.
A well thought out answer, and I can understand why people believe that the horse has bolted. I will probably have to do this ■■■■■■■■ awful course, under protest, if i want to continue to drive after 2014, but I am seriously looking at leaving the industry. I will still join any protest march, even if there are only a handful of us, because it is something i believe in.
I know that the drivers who frequent the web forums are only a minority, what worrys me more is the fact that the vast majority of drivers know nothing what so ever about the DCPC, and come 2014, the training schools will be making it hand over fist.
My wife, when she first came to live in england, found it very difficult to get work because her english was not great. she finally got a job in a care home. We think we have it tough, imagine changing 20 or 30 adult nappies every shift. Carrying old ladies to the bathroom, ■■■■■■■■■■ them, washing them, feeding them putting them to bed. She would get abused by the patients, and was attacked several times. She would tell me what she had to do each day, and there was no way i could have done it, and all this for the national minimum wage.
One thing she did have though, was a structured and very good training program which gave her NVQ’s to various levels. each was assessed while she was doing the job she was paid to do, and she also recieved training from her supervisors and other staff members. It was training to do the job she was doing, similar to the training programs that companies like Stobarts, DHL, wincanton etc already have in place. It was a nationally recognised training scheme that actually counted for something, once she had passed a certain level, she didn’t have to do it again in 5 years time. If she was to go for another job, this would show that she has some knowledge of the work, and has completed certain areas of training satisfactorily, .the CPC will not. It will be recognised by employers for what it is, a worthless piece of plastic. recruiters will still look for drivers with experience above those with a shiny new licence and CPC.
Happily, my wife, who has 2 masters degree, one in History of Art, and one in Finance and Economics, has now found a job more suited to her education. 
Thanks for the compliment by the way, it’s great to get some feedback on my short stories, keep checking back because more will follow! 
I was intrigued with the Red Tape Challenge and after half a bottle of wine I composed my small writings.
The Driver CPC or Driver Qualification Card comes into force in September 2014, but the only qualification needed to hold it is 35 hours in a classroom. I have spent 35 years in this industry and learned something new every day. This new (to us) legislation will do nothing to improve road safety, load security or the driver’s lot.
For many experienced drivers, this is a step too far. Not many of us are against proper training, but many people who do not understand the driver’s hour’s legislation, the industry, or the way it works are offering the training or classroom work. In many cases the driver himself has to fund this training with a school approved by JAUPT.
Anyone can set themselves up as a trainer, without the content or accuracy of their course being checked or monitored. The driver will search around for the cheapest course he or she can find, and even more ridiculous is the fact that you can sit in the classroom for a week and take the same seven hours training every day.
If we are going to be qualified, then make the qualifications worthwhile, akin to an airline pilots or someone who navigates a ship, up the ante, and let lorry drivers have real qualifications. The qualifications that would then allow us to command the salaries of train drivers or insurance salesmen.
The average driver works between 60 and 70 hours per week as the powers that be have allowed this using the availability symbol on the driver’s record machine, the tachograph.
Even though the Working Time Directive or in our case the Road Transport Directive limits us to an average 48 hours, the availability clause allows employers to have professional drivers working twice the hours of the insurance salesman for little over minimum wage. The vehicles we drive are high tech expensive machines with equally expensive commodities on board. The driver has to make sure that the load is safe on the road but is often prevented from doing that by warehouse staff under the guise of Health and Safety or security. More people who are on a minimum wage are loading the vehicles, and then sealing the trailers preventing the driver from checking the load.
 
The EU 561/2006 regulations on drivers hours and rest periods were brought in on 11th April 2007 and are quite adequate without trying to run in conjunction with the RTD. The modern JIT (Just in Time) culture has caused drivers to be constantly chasing deadlines while trying to concentrate on the congested roads, only to find they are early or late and are almost punished for this if they arrive more than 15 minutes either side of a delivery window.The JIT booking time doesn’t guarantee you will be tipped as the warehouse or factory will then use the vehicle as temporary storage until they are ready for you, all the time the available hours to a driver are being eaten away, the cab telephone is a constant distraction as the planning department are trying to rebook your next collection because you were delayed at the last delivery.
It is a slight rant but well fueled by ethanol. It keeps Dreva happy
WN,excellent piece.
This is the text of the first email i sent to the head of the DSA with copies to my MP and MEP, I will post the reply, and my comments to the reply later today.
"I have read many articles and fact sheets associated with the LGV Drivers CPC that is being trained out at the moment. I have spoken to many HGV drivers, both full time employed, full time agency and part time agency. Union and non-union members, transport management CPC holders and Transport managers. I have yet to find one who is in support of the DCPC in its present form. Furthermore, I have found no one who is able to tell me that they have, in any way, been consulted on the composition of the DCPC. I have read most of the information issued by your department, the JAUPT and various interested parties from the training industry, I believe the consultation process was done thorough the following bodies.
Driver CPC Advisory Group Membership
Driveroneuk:
Indeed, hopefully leading to a considerable pay increase.
Dream on 
truckerjon:
WN,excellent piece.
This is the text of the first email i sent to the head of the DSA with copies to my MP and MEP, I will post the reply, and my comments to the reply later today."I have read many articles and fact sheets associated with the LGV Drivers CPC that is being trained out at the moment. I have spoken to many HGV drivers, both full time employed, full time agency and part time agency. Union and non-union members, transport management CPC holders and Transport managers. I have yet to find one who is in support of the DCPC in its present form. Furthermore, I have found no one who is able to tell me that they have, in any way, been consulted on the composition of the DCPC. I have read most of the information issued by your department, the JAUPT and various interested parties from the training industry, I believe the consultation process was done thorough the following bodies.
Driver CPC Advisory Group Membership
- Skills for Logistics
- GoSkills
- Freight Transport Association
- Road Haulage Association
- Confederation of Passenger Transport
- Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport
- Transport and General Workers’ Union
- Department for Transport
- Driving Standards Agency
- Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
Could you please tell me who represented me and the thousands of other people who are in a similar situation to me? I am a self-employed agency driver, I am not in any trade union, nor do I belong to any trade organisation. I work through various driving agencies for a variety of transport companies, all of who will require me to have a DCPC, but none of whom will fund the training. It seems to me that, as the major beneficiaries of any training undertaken by me, it would be logical for the employers to fund said training.
I have held a Driving licence for 37 years, of which 32 I have held a C+E licence. During this time I have worked for some of the most prestigious and major logistics and transport companies in the UK. I have driven throughout west and east Europe, with every conceivable kind of load, and combination of vehicle. I hold an FTA accredited Driving Assessors Certificate, I was registered with the DSA as a C+E driving instructor, I was mainly responsible for the development of major Driver training programs for one of our leading supermarket chains. I am qualified as an emergency Fire Service Driver, and have been trained by several truck manufacturers as an official driver trainer.
In 2014 you run the risk of losing many hundreds and thousands of qualified drivers with vast amounts of experience because you continue with the blinkered attitude to this travesty called the DCPC. You seem to continue to believe that it will not be a problem in 2014, that every driver will suddenly start taking this utterly useless qualification. Do you honestly believe that the thousands of “part time” drivers, who undertake a vital role by working one or two days a week, allowing the industry to operate on a 24/7 basis, will complete this course? I don’t believe so.
Could you please tell me what benefit you foresee by me sitting in a classroom for 7 hours, 5 times in 5 years, listening to somebody who, in some cases has never driven an LGV, talking about a subject that I have been trained on, or trained out myself many times before? Do you consider it a worthwhile use of my time and money to spend 7 hours without any test or exam, where by simply turning up I will have been deemed to qualify? It is like taking away a surgeons qualification because he didn’t attend a first aid course!
I am not against training, far from it. With my past training experience I fully understand the need for development within the industry, however the DCPC in its present form does nothing to enhance the role of the professional driver, but training without proper validation is a total waste of time. As I understand it, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but is it true that I could be a total nutcase behind the wheel of a truck, someone who constantly flaunts the drivers hours laws, who spends most of each journey foot to the floor, totally disregards the traffic laws, has been fortunate not to get caught, but so long as I fall asleep in a classroom for 7 hours every year, I can say I’m qualified!
It is a fact, based on your own departments’ statistics, that LGV and PSV vehicles are involved in a lower percentage of accidents per 1million miles travelled, than any other road user. Statistically, you are less likely to be involved in an accident when travelling in an LGV or PSV than any other form of road transport. If any group of road users require periodic training to reduce accidents and improve road safety, professional LGV and PSV drivers would be at the bottom of the list. Elderly drivers, young male drivers, “white van” drivers, young pedestrians and cyclists should be the first to require additional training.
As for fuel efficient and environmentally friendly driving, companies who really want to save fuel and money would be better off spending time on training office based staff such as route planners and load planners, a huge amount of money and pollution could be saved by avoiding deliveries during peak times etc.
I am required to renew my licence every 5 years, complete with a medical, I have to purchase a Digital tachograph card and pay for a renewal, the cost of the initial training is such that young people with families cannot afford to become LGV drivers. We are constantly being squeezed by the government for licence and professional fees, we are the most regulated trade in Europe and risk fines and penalties’ on a daily basis often for things beyond our control and to add to this you expect us to line the pockets of the training companies with our hard earned cash for something that has no benefit to us whatsoever.
Of course I have a plan for 2014, I will be working at my local supermarket collecting the trolleys in the car park, unless of course I require a vocational licence and CPC for that!"
Another excellent post which says it all well done truckerjon
I recieved the following reply from the DSA. You will see my comments in red, which I then passed back to the DSA> if you read it carefully, I’m sure you will notice how they contradict themselves several times. Later i will post my reply to thier reply to this email.
Thank you for your email received on 7 February about driver certificate of professional competence (CPC).
This is a European Union (EU) Directive which means that it is being implemented across all EU Countries. I must stress that as this is European legislation, the United Kingdom does not have the choice to opt out of implementing it. If we did so, sanctions would be levied against us and it would affect our competitiveness in Europe.
Is it not true, that each member state, although they have to comply, can actually specify how training is to be delivered and to who has to undertake the training? For example, the Dutch have given an exemption to Drivers who were born before 1955, as they believe that they will already have sufficient training and experience.
The driver CPC is intended to improve road safety and reduce casualties through better qualified drivers. Drivers will develop defensive driving techniques which the industry is anticipating will make significant savings in fuel consumption.
How will a driver develop defensive driving techniques when all he/she has to do is attend a course. It is not even a requirement for the driver to remain awake during the lessons! There is no pass or fail, so there is no onus on the driver to pay attention to anything said. By just attending the driver has the DCPC.
It should also bring an improved professional and positive image to these industries, encouraging younger people to consider driving as a career. Both the Goods Vehicle and Public Transport sectors have informed us that there is a great shortage of drivers at present.
Who is going to pay for the increased costs of achieving a C+E licence for young people? In the current economic climate, it is difficult enough for a young family to earn sufficient to live, how are they going to find the extra expense required to complete, not only the theory test, and the practical test, but also the DCPC? Anyone who knows this business, will know that jobs are almost impossible to get without experience. Who is going to invest a such a substantial amount of the family’s savings, on the off chance that they will get a job? The DCPC will not make any difference to this situation, new drivers will always be at the bottom of the pecking order for jobs.
A survey of the industry has shown that the majority of professional drivers get very little refresher training throughout their careers, especially those that work for small firms. The new legislation ensures that all drivers will take part in approved training courses.
I don’t know who carried out this survey, or who they asked, but I can assure you that there is an awful lot of training being carried out within the industry. I personally conduct training on behalf of agencies for DHL, mainly updating the H&S issues, and carrying out a practical driver assessment on an annual basis. This ensures that training is tailored to meet the needs of the individual driver, and companies gain by being able to fit training to the needs of their business. Most companies that wish to compete in the business are required under existing UK H&S laws to provide sufficient training to ensure that their workforce is competent to perform the tasks asked of them. Any employer who fails to provide this, should be legislated against under the H&S laws.
How much refresher training will be carried out on a driver who is perfectly entitled to fall asleep during the course?
What formal training qualifications are required to train the DCPC? As an FTA accredited assessor, a DSA RLGV instructor, as well as having various other training and instructional qualifications, why am I still required to attend a training course led by someone who may never even have driven a truck?
Much of the feedback from drivers who have completed parts of the DCPC is that the standard of training and more specifically trainers, is appalling. The amount of incorrect information that is being given out is quite frankly , frightening. I understand that courses are checked by the JAUPT and DSA, but is the actual content checked for accuracy? Is the individual trainer checked for competence?
I should explain that it is not necessary to attend periodic training all in one go. Courses can be as short as 7 hours and you have five years to complete the full 35 hours required.
I assure you that the directive applies to drivers in all European member states and also to drivers from other countries who are working in the EU. British drivers will not be disadvantaged in any way. On the contrary, they will now have more opportunities to work in the EU.
It may well be so, but as stated above, some member states use their own interpretation of the laws to allow certain categories of driver exemptions. The UK does not, therefore UK drivers are disadvantaged.
Now that the legislation has been implemented all professional drivers must comply with it. If you do not have driver CPC, you will not be able to drive for a living in the European Union. I cannot advise on payment for training courses. This is a matter between you and your employer.
So the EU have the power to remove employment from any member of the population by simply introducing a new law without any consultation. What next? Will Doctors have to take a first aid course if they want to keep their licence for open heart surgery? I believe this to be an infringement of my right to work, the UK/EU should have implemented this for new drivers only, as when the HGV licences first appeared, anyone currently driving an HGV was given grandfather rights, and did not have to take a new test.
Anyone who drives professionally as a bus, coach or lorry driver will require Driver CPC. The number of hours work undertaken is not taken into account, therefore part time drivers of these vehicles will be treated in the same way as full time drivers.
Anyone of the many part time drivers who fulfil a vital role of covering busy times, school bus runs, weekend work etc., will be required to take this training. How many of these will think it is not worth the cost? Many I think
I appreciate your comments about the financial cost of CPC.
As the main beneficiaries of the DCPC training are likely to be the employers, through reduced fuel and damage bills, surely it should follow that the employers should bear the cost of training?
Many companies already invest in training for their staff and Driver CPC effectively ensures that the whole of the industry adopts this good practice. However it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure that they hold Driver CPC & complete their periodic training, which includes meeting any training costs.
Much of the company training already being carried out, is far superior to the courses offered for the DCPC, and yet it cannot be counted towards the drivers CPC. surely Practical driving assessments carried out during the day to day job would be a far better system of offering refresher training, rather than sit in a classroom listening to someone who is talking rubbish. Also, i refer you to your answer (section 4) above where you state the exact opposite of what you have just said.
There may be public funding available for vocational driver training but requests will compete with other claims on those funds. Unfortunately we do not have any control over this. I suggest that you contact either The Department for Work and Pensions or the nearest local Job Centre direct who may be able to assist you further in this matter.
I am sorry that you feel that driver CPC is unnecessary; however I hope I have clarified the issue and explained that this is not the case.
In my original email, I stated that I was in favour of refresher training if it was appropriate, I never stated that I considered it to be unnecessary. Nothing that you have said has convinced me that the DCPC in its current form is of use or benefit to anyone except the bank accounts of the training organisations, and the various government bodies that will gain revenue from the scheme, It certainly does not benefit either the road users or the professional drivers.
Yours sincerely
Anthony Short
Corporate Correspondence
Today i was talking with a trainer who does the dcpc along with other stuff such as the ADR and he told me that there is no government funding available for unemployed drivers for the ADR & DCPC and his take on the situation come 2014 is there is gonna be some serious problems, as most older experienced drivers in the 60-65yrs age bracket will call it a day and not do the dcpc,but not only could their be a real driver shortage,but there will be a shortage of trainers by then,
And that will be bad news believe it or not as the price for the training will go through the roof as there will be a big demand but not enough trainers to cope, due to the fact not many drivers are upto date with the dcpc or have completed it ,could be scaremongering or it may end up being fact ?
tommy t:
'…[T]here is no government funding available … and … there is gonna be some serious problems, as … drivers in the 60-65yrs age bracket will call it a day and … there will be a shortage of trainers by then.[T]he price for the training will go through the roof as there will be a big demand but not enough trainers to cope…’
The government aren’t worrying too much about forecast shortages since they’re banking on Turkey’s admittance to the EU. Why should they not recruit Turkish trainers too - especially since we aren’t allowed to discriminate simply because they don’t speak our language.
Unless you need an operators licence to run your own trucks then they should not waste time and money teaching us drivers things we should already know 
Or should it not be called a cpc?
Trucker Jons reply from some corporate correspondent looks like it was actually written by two correspondents. There is no driver training done in small companies. or Many companies already invest in training for their staff
They are concerned about the financial cost, but still expect the driver to fund it.
Courses can be as short as 7 hours and you have five years to complete the full 35 hours required.
Yes, yes. I think Jon mentioned that about falling asleep in class once a year for 7 hours for the next 5 years.
Not one comment about the very poor standards or the accuracy of the training.
You could ask 6 transport managers to explain the RTD and get 6 answers, the trainers will explain it 6 different ways and still get it wrong 