driver shortage

muckles:

Carryfast:
Fine if there’s no problem with putting trailers on a bay etc etc then there’s no reason why it should be any more difficult for a new inexperienced driver to get on distance/international work than an ‘experienced’ driver for example.Nor any reason why a newly qualified class 1 driver,or even class 2 before the days of C+E, should need to spend any time at all getting ‘experience’ driving rigids or 7.5 tonners on local multi drop or building delivery work etc etc.

And I don’t understand where you get this idea that bottom end jobs are driving rigids, there are jobs driving artics that most experienced drivers wouldn’t want and are taken by newbies or those who haven’t got such a great driving record.
but there should also be a certain benefit in having a few years of experience behind you, so that means the better jobs.

I didn’t say that all of the zb jobs are rigids.I just gave the zb rigid type jobs as just an example because there are more of those types of jobs in that sector.I also said class 1 jobs like supermarket work and at best as in my case permanent nights.

On that note my general premise stands.That decent relatively less experienced drivers face too much unfair arbitrary elitist cronyism regarding the allocation of decent work v relatively zb work usually based on the bs ‘experience’ issue.Which explains why the industry is supposedly faced with the problem of an ageing workforce with too few new drivers being interested in filling their place.To which your defence is to rely on the same old bs stereotypes of less able new drivers and then applying that to all.

You can then add to that the general shortage of decent work in this country v that of our Scandinavian and European counterparts.

New drivers are not interested for the following reasons. 1.Very expensive to attain the licences. 2. Lots of companies require 2 yrs exp mainly down to insurance reasons. 3. 60 hour weeks for crap hourly rate. 4. Being treated like a second class citizen. 5. Sat waiting around for hours on end. 6. Driving is far more stressful year on year due to constantly rising numbers of road users.

Evil8Beezle:
Well I think it’s bloody pathetic that CF is still crying about not getting a Euro Tramping gig 30 or 40 years on! :unamused:
It also sounds like after getting knocked back once he gave up, doubly pathetic…

Not at all I’m just using my experience as an example bearing in mind that it doesn’t matter or make any difference in my case now.

As for getting knocked back ‘once’.No the example I gave was more a case of the final straw that just confirmed what I was already thinking about the career progression and allocation situation within the industry.On that note no I’d regard what happened around almost 10 years before that point,as when the situation started dawning on me,that the reason I was still driving zb council wagons on a zb council job,years after starting on it,instead of a drawbar outfit on international work for example.Was because of the elitist,arbitrary allocation of work nature of the job.In which inexperienced drivers are often seen as mugs to make sure that ‘experienced’ drivers can go on reserving the best jobs for themselves. :imp:

Carryfast:

muckles:

Carryfast:
Fine if there’s no problem with putting trailers on a bay etc etc then there’s no reason why it should be any more difficult for a new inexperienced driver to get on distance/international work than an ‘experienced’ driver for example.Nor any reason why a newly qualified class 1 driver,or even class 2 before the days of C+E, should need to spend any time at all getting ‘experience’ driving rigids or 7.5 tonners on local multi drop or building delivery work etc etc.

And I don’t understand where you get this idea that bottom end jobs are driving rigids, there are jobs driving artics that most experienced drivers wouldn’t want and are taken by newbies or those who haven’t got such a great driving record.
but there should also be a certain benefit in having a few years of experience behind you, so that means the better jobs.

I didn’t say that all of the zb jobs are rigids.I just gave the zb rigid type jobs as just an example because there are more of those types of jobs in that sector.I also said class 1 jobs like supermarket work and at best as in my case permanent nights.

On that note my general premise stands.That decent relatively less experienced drivers face too much unfair arbitrary elitist cronyism regarding the allocation of decent work v relatively zb work usually based on the bs ‘experience’ issue.Which explains why the industry is supposedly faced with the problem of an ageing workforce with too few new drivers being interested in filling their place.To which your defence is to rely on the same old bs stereotypes of less able new drivers and then applying that to all.

You can then add to that the general shortage of decent work in this country v that of our Scandinavian and European counterparts.

I always thought getting a job with a supermarket own fleet was a good number for many, local work, no nights out, regular shift patterns and well paid. Although not sure how many Supermarkets still run their own transport. Used to do a bit of agency for Co-op years ago, nice easy work multi drop to stores round the area.

just because you weren’t able to get the work, you obviously thought you deserved, when you were driving, doesn’t mean many others haven’t started at the bottom and moved on, in fact I’d say most drivers who are doing the plumb jobs now started doing less desirable jobs.

My answer to the problem of recruitment and retention is that conditions need to be improved across the industry, so all drivers benefit, not expecting new drivers to jump into plumb jobs leaving those already in the industry with the crap.

The problems of attracting new people to drive trucks and an ageing workforce isn’t a UK only problem, it’s a problem across Western Europe, Scandinavia, the US and Canada.
You need to talk to a few European truck drivers, if you think they are living in some trucking utopia, a couple years ago I was chatting to a family friend, who’d come over to see family in the UK over Christmas, he drives a truck in Australia, daily trunking job for a supermarket. The way he spoke about the job could have easily been a post on here talking about driving in the UK.

eagerbeaver:
New drivers are not interested for the following reasons. 1.Very expensive to attain the licences. 2. Lots of companies require 2 yrs exp mainly down to insurance reasons. 3. 60 hour weeks for crap hourly rate. 4. Being treated like a second class citizen. 5. Sat waiting around for hours on end. 6. Driving is far more stressful year on year due to constantly rising numbers of road users.

This, except for 4, never happened to me as I won’t let it.
When you have, and it’s well used but now true, supermarkets paying the living wage and the likes of Keedwells paying, according to the last advert I had via email, 7.70 an hour for a 55 hour week with 9.70 for overtime then it’s no surprise we have no new drivers joining.
Up here in the northwest there are some decent wages going and to be honest not much mention of the 2 year restriction. I have a friend who is now on at Co-op Lea Green with only 3 months experience, both he and my neighbour tell me they are often up to 50 drivers short a day. Not through lack of pay or experience but from union interference on run times, but that’s a different story. They pay well but have every shift covering weekends so hence they welcome new drivers as they might be without family and more willing to work weekends?
As for Carryfast, well, it is tedious getting past his ill informed hypocrisy but it is entertaining watching him try to weave his google searched agendas into any subject. Let’s face it, the driver shortage is really down to thatcher…case closed.

muckles:
Some local haulage firms have a very loyal workforce, because the drivers feel they’re valued and they can talk to the boss directly, and the boss understands where they’re coming from as he/she might have driven trucks or might still drive trucks, so understands the job, both good and bad.

I think that’s where we have the edge. There’s three managers, two of us have driven round Europe, the finance guy used to be a bank manager, but from time to time he goes out in a van, so he understands a bit of it. The job can be hard, I’m not out to make it more difficult than it is, and I had a couple of terrible bosses and no desire to emulate them. Also we don’t deliver into RDCs and most customers are decent.

Norfolkinclue1:
As for Carryfast, well, it is tedious getting past his ill informed hypocrisy but it is entertaining watching him try to weave his google searched agendas into any subject. Let’s face it, the driver shortage is really down to thatcher…case closed.

Not quite closed… you forgot Mussolini. :wink:

Carryfast:

Evil8Beezle:
Well I think it’s bloody pathetic that CF is still crying about not getting a Euro Tramping gig 30 or 40 years on! :unamused:
It also sounds like after getting knocked back once he gave up, doubly pathetic…

Not at all I’m just using my experience as an example bearing in mind that it doesn’t matter or make any difference in my case now.

As for getting knocked back ‘once’.No the example I gave was more a case of the final straw that just confirmed what I was already thinking about the career progression and allocation situation within the industry.On that note no I’d regard what happened around almost 10 years before that point,as when the situation started dawning on me,that the reason I was still driving zb council wagons on a zb council job,years after starting on it,instead of a drawbar outfit on international work for example.Was because of the elitist,arbitrary allocation of work nature of the job.In which inexperienced drivers are often seen as mugs to make sure that ‘experienced’ drivers can go on reserving the best jobs for themselves. :imp:

If you get knocked back once or twice, that’s the way it goes. If it gets to be a habit, then you need to ask what you need to change about yourself. If your theory was right, I wouldn’t have taken on two guys in their mid 20s on international. After about three months, during which they get their ADR1, they were on an equal footing with the other lads. At the end of the year I look at the wages and everyone earns broadly similar pay, that tells me the newbie youngsters are getting a fair chance.

Carryfast:
.Which going by the apologetic nature of the call I got from the guvnor who’d originally offered me the job is quite possible.In which case,going by the time delay,he must have put up a bleedin good argument on my behalf but obviously having been defeated by the type of closed minded bs of those above him which you seem to be going by.
:

So we have reached the reason as to why you are so agitated by what is the normal progression in any profession, start at the bottom and work up, even if you are experienced but changing employer or sector/role. You were offered a job by a transport manager who was over ruled by his boss, maybe the company owner, because of your lack of experience in the particular sector. Yet because of your personal arrogance, you maybe refused the chance to work in a more familiar role within the same company, even though this would have put you on the spring board to your eventual aim. Strikes me that your arrogance could have landed you in trouble, without the banked good will of which I wrote earlier :unamused:

eddie snax:

Carryfast:
.Which going by the apologetic nature of the call I got from the guvnor who’d originally offered me the job is quite possible.In which case,going by the time delay,he must have put up a bleedin good argument on my behalf but obviously having been defeated by the type of closed minded bs of those above him which you seem to be going by.
:

So we have reached the reason as to why you are so agitated by what is the normal progression in any profession, start at the bottom and work up, even if you are experienced but changing employer or sector/role. You were offered a job by a transport manager who was over ruled by his boss, maybe the company owner, because of your lack of experience in the particular sector. Yet because of your personal arrogance, you maybe refused the chance to work in a more familiar role within the same company, even though this would have put you on the spring board to your eventual aim. Strikes me that your arrogance could have landed you in trouble, without the banked good will of which I wrote earlier :unamused:

Let’s get this right.‘If’ the scenario went the way you’re describing ( quite possible ) you’re saying that the firm’s higher management overruled a call by someone that they’ve given the responsibility of recruitment.That call being that ‘experience’ gained with previous employers was already good enough to provide the so called ‘spring board’ you’re describing.So why the need for more of the same and what difference would it have made to the situation of inexperience in the new international running sector anyway ?.While at best the idea of experience,gained working at ‘the bottom’ in other sectors,with other employers,not counting in that case just confirms my view.Added to by evidence of people having got the required breaks stating that they’ve bs’d their way into similar jobs in similar situations obviously to avoid such politics.

Which still leaves the question of the other scenario of the bs promise of decent work being used as a carrot to fill less attractive vanancies.Which seems to be more or less the whole premise of the bs idea of ‘start at the bottom’ across the industry.

While in either case are you really suggesting that anyone with any sense would throw away loads of service time with a reasonable employer in an acceptable job on that basis.If so you’re avin a larf. :unamused:

And you’ve got the nerve to call me arrogant.On that note keep digging because continuing to be in denial on the subject certainly isn’t helping the cause of making the job more attractive to new entrants.

albion:

Carryfast:
Not at all I’m just using my experience as an example bearing in mind that it doesn’t matter or make any difference in my case now.

As for getting knocked back ‘once’.No the example I gave was more a case of the final straw that just confirmed what I was already thinking about the career progression and allocation situation within the industry.On that note no I’d regard what happened around almost 10 years before that point,as when the situation started dawning on me,that the reason I was still driving zb council wagons on a zb council job,years after starting on it,instead of a drawbar outfit on international work for example.Was because of the elitist,arbitrary allocation of work nature of the job.In which inexperienced drivers are often seen as mugs to make sure that ‘experienced’ drivers can go on reserving the best jobs for themselves. :imp:

If you get knocked back once or twice, that’s the way it goes. If it gets to be a habit, then you need to ask what you need to change about yourself. If your theory was right, I wouldn’t have taken on two guys in their mid 20s on international. After about three months, during which they get their ADR1, they were on an equal footing with the other lads. At the end of the year I look at the wages and everyone earns broadly similar pay, that tells me the newbie youngsters are getting a fair chance.

Surely the idea of saying that you’re happy to take on people in their mid 20’s with no previous international experience.While others with more time in the job,get turned down elsewhere,on the same basis and/or need to bs their way into the job to get an advantage in that regard.Just confirms my comments concerning the arbitrary face fits nature of the career progression structure within the industry as a whole. :unamused:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=140667&start=30#p2213586

Carryfast:

eddie snax:

Carryfast:
.Which going by the apologetic nature of the call I got from the guvnor who’d originally offered me the job is quite possible.In which case,going by the time delay,he must have put up a bleedin good argument on my behalf but obviously having been defeated by the type of closed minded bs of those above him which you seem to be going by.
:

So we have reached the reason as to why you are so agitated by what is the normal progression in any profession, start at the bottom and work up, even if you are experienced but changing employer or sector/role. You were offered a job by a transport manager who was over ruled by his boss, maybe the company owner, because of your lack of experience in the particular sector. Yet because of your personal arrogance, you maybe refused the chance to work in a more familiar role within the same company, even though this would have put you on the spring board to your eventual aim. Strikes me that your arrogance could have landed you in trouble, without the banked good will of which I wrote earlier :unamused:

Let’s get this right.‘If’ the scenario went the way you’re describing ( quite possible ) you’re saying that the firm’s higher management overruled a call by someone that they’ve given the responsibility of recruitment.That call being that ‘experience’ gained with previous employers was already good enough to provide the so called ‘spring board’ you’re describing.So why the need for more of the same and what difference would it have made to the situation of inexperience in the new international running sector anyway ?.While at best the idea of experience,gained working at ‘the bottom’ in other sectors,with other employers,not counting in that case just confirms my view.Added to by evidence of people having got the required breaks stating that they’ve bs’d their way into similar jobs in similar situations obviously to avoid such politics.

Which still leaves the question of the other scenario of the bs promise of decent work being used as a carrot to fill less attractive vanancies.Which seems to be more or less the whole premise of the bs idea of ‘start at the bottom’ across the industry.

While in either case are you really suggesting that anyone with any sense would throw away loads of service time with a reasonable employer in an acceptable job on that basis.If so you’re avin a larf. :unamused:

And you’ve got the nerve to call me arrogant.On that note keep digging because continuing to be in denial on the subject certainly isn’t helping the cause of making the job more attractive to new entrants.

Well yes, I do think you are being arrogant, unless have I this wrong, you spat your dummy out over not getting straight away, the chance to go straight onto a job at which you had no experience, all be it I wasn’t there, but I’m making the assumption that you were offered a different role, whilst they got to know you better, then when they were comfortable with you, would have no doubt rolled into the work you desired, but you wouldn’t wait because it wasn’t what was promised.

And here’s a thing transport managers lie, so quite likely, the gezzer saw you coming thought he’ll do to fill that seat, then left a reasonable time to let you down, so he could blame others but hey here’s the job I want you for anyway, and we’ll work on getting to the continent at a later date.

I probably like many have on here accepted temporary worse t&c’s to get a foot through a door. I left a nearly new motor at my previous employer, fro better pay at my present employer. I had to lorry hop for nearly 3 months(cover holidays), then was allocated a truck that was 4 years older than the on I’d left at my previous employer. I didn’t ■■■■■ or complain, because I could see the bigger picture, Oh unlike you, I was going to do exactly the same work(containers), not changing industry sectors :wink:

Olog Hai:

OVLOV JAY:
It’s no good demanding anything. The rates aren’t there to pay £50k a year. Demand it all you want and the bosses will look past you. They need to realise they aren’t charging enough, if they can’t offer an attractive package. It’s needs to come from the top down. The hauliers need to refuse to do the work, until they get a rate large enough to pay the right wages with the right equipment.

There we have it. What haulier is going to ring a customer up and say ‘yeah, that job we’ve been doing for you for £700? Well, it’s £850 now.’ Not many I would wager because there is a very real likelihood of being told to Four Cough. And so rates stay low and there is no additional money for wages.

I read in Commercial Motor what Maritime make in terms of percentage net profit and it makes you wonder why they and firms like them even bother. The best of it was that it appeared to be a story off a press release and something that Maritime were actually proud to broadcast… :open_mouth:

I work for XPO currently, when they were ND they were famous for undercutting to get work, recently however we are (on our side at least) shedding contracts like there is no tomorrow. The reason is that they are approaching the customers and telling them exactly how much they require to continue doing their work. If the customer will not budge they are simply ending the contracts! We’ve given away some massive contracts this way recently with at least three of them coming back two months later prepared to pay the new rate.

eddie snax:
Well yes, I do think you are being arrogant, unless have I this wrong, you spat your dummy out over not getting straight away, the chance to go straight onto a job at which you had no experience, all be it I wasn’t there, but I’m making the assumption that you were offered a different role, whilst they got to know you better, then when they were comfortable with you, would have no doubt rolled into the work you desired, but you wouldn’t wait because it wasn’t what was promised.

And here’s a thing transport managers lie, so quite likely, the gezzer saw you coming thought he’ll do to fill that seat, then left a reasonable time to let you down, so he could blame others but hey here’s the job I want you for anyway, and we’ll work on getting to the continent at a later date.

I probably like many have on here accepted temporary worse t&c’s to get a foot through a door. I left a nearly new motor at my previous employer, fro better pay at my present employer. I had to lorry hop for nearly 3 months(cover holidays), then was allocated a truck that was 4 years older than the on I’d left at my previous employer. I didn’t ■■■■■ or complain, because I could see the bigger picture, Oh unlike you, I was going to do exactly the same work(containers), not changing industry sectors :wink:

Yes you obviously do ‘have this wrong’.I actually walked away from that particular offer having had almost 10 years of similar zb ( the so called ‘experience’ issue mostly ) every time I tried to make the move up the ladder to international.Which is what I’d entered the industry to do in my case,from the ‘start at the bottom’ uk sectors I’d been doing for more than 10 years at the time since the age of 18 if you count 7.5 tonner work.

On that note how do you explain the obvious difference between someone saying they were happy to employ mid 20’s drivers on international work with no previous experience,obviously with no need to ‘get to know them’ on lower grade work.As opposed to your bs ideas which count people out in their 30’s in this case,let alone mid 20’s.Let alone that obvious final straw situation which I’ve described and which you obviously seem to be deliberately twisting into a supposed isolated one and only case,which is bs.

As for supposedly needing to ‘get to know a driver’ just because they’ve got no previous experience in whatever sector,by putting them back on the same lower grade work that they’ve tried to leave behind.That solves the lack of experience issue how exactly when they eventually still have to be thrown the keys to the truck for that first international run for example.Or for that matter means that no one could ever get a break with any international running firm that has no UK only work to offer,anyway.When it’s clear that those with your ideas are happy to apply double standards in that regard in the case of ‘experienced’ drivers.Let alone those who circumvent the whole bs premise by just bsing their way round the issue with pretend non existent ‘experience’ to get the required breaks as in Switch’s stated example.

Or for that matter ‘if’ that was even the intention in this case why didn’t the manager who originally offered me the job tell me that right from the outset,knowing my lack of international experience from the outset.The answer being clear.He either obviously agreed with my view of the situation not yours.Or he was just part of an obvious scam to fill the firm’s less attractive uk work roles by falsely using the carrot of its more attractive international roles of which there was never any chance of moving onto.Because as usual that sector was/is an elitist face fits closed shop.While the idea of using the carrot of more attractive work to fill less attractive roles obviously applies at every level and a trick most preferred by agencies. :imp:

Norfolkinclue1:
I have a friend who is now on at Co-op Lea Green with only 3 months experience, both he and my neighbour tell me they are often up to 50 drivers short a day.

You mean the management are whinging that they are 50 cheap drivers short? So they have to let the work go to a higher bidder, farm it out to expensive subbies, or offer it to drivers on more favourable terms (8am instead of 2am starts)?

I don’t believe for a moment that any single concern at a single location could be 50 drivers a day short. Even a single driver short over a sustained period would mean goods piling up in warehouses and shop shelves starting to empty.

Carryfast reading your posts on the subject has made me think.

  1. You don’t half hold a grudge.
  2. If your interview answers are as long and rambling as your posts, I’m not surprised you struggled getting the jobs you wanted.
  3. I imagine the TM offered you the job to get you out of his office
  4. Don’t you think most of the people on here have been let down on jobs on a few occasions?
  5. Make you mind up, first you complain that new drivers can’t get decent work and when Albion says they gave a couple of young drivers a chance, you complain about that.

muckles:
Carryfast reading your posts on the subject has made me think.

  1. You don’t half hold a grudge.
  2. If your interview answers are as long and rambling as your posts, I’m not surprised you struggled getting the jobs you wanted.
  3. I imagine the TM offered you the job to get you out of his office
  4. Don’t you think most of the people on here have been let down on jobs on a few occasions?
  5. Make you mind up, first you complain that new drivers can’t get decent work and when Albion says they gave a couple of young drivers a chance, you complain about that.
  1. As I said it makes no difference to me now but I’d guess having an already curtailed career effectively needlessly catastrophically held back by those with ES’s ideas gives me the right to have a moan about that situation.Especially when it isn’t me moaning about the possible reasons for an ageing workforce in the industry that supposedly isn’t being replaced by new people.

  2. If my interview answers were a problem that would obviously have counted me out of the industry in general.

  3. If the guvnor in question in that example wanted me out of his office all he had to say was sorry we can’t employ you.Not waste my time and his with a driving assessment and two different contradictory job offers. :unamused:

4.As I said not getting a fair break to better things in more than 10 years of starting and working ‘at the bottom’ lower levels of the industry isn’t a ‘few occasions’ and as such is one of the inconvenient facts that stands in the way of ES’s ideas.In addition to other inconvenient facts like Switch’s statement that shows those closed minded ideas just result in many new drivers blagging their way in to get the breaks while honest drivers get left behind.

  1. As I said Albion’s comments actually ‘support’ my views,that the career progression structure in the industry is an arbitrary,face fits,elitist joke.Bearing in mind that they obviously contradict ES’s closed minded views.

I’m thinking of starting a Carryfast fan club, anyone interested? :open_mouth:

I agree with Muckles, and think CF has shot himself in the foot many a time and just can’t see it. Experience is important, but so is being a team player and having a ‘can do’ attitude that doesn’t involve getting the hump, seeking approval, and needing a moan. Basically a boss wants an employee that they know will be getting on with the work, and when there is a problem, a real problem, they will get told by that employee. i.e. Fire them off on a task and forget them! Do you think you fit that mold CF? :open_mouth:

I started my driving career (If you wanna call it that) at concorde logistics delivering furniture in a 7.5t. They struggled to get drivers and that’s with a wage of 22.5k plus 2.5k bonus. Issue is people just assumed it’s a driving job not a job where you drive to your first drop 3h away then have 7-10 deliveries to make lugging heavy furniture around. Fair enough it’s a two man crew but most people could not hack the hard graft.

I got my class 2 licence around April time and I started at palmer and harveys just over 2 month ago and it’s same issue there in regards to people not being able to do the job. I won’t lie the places we go will test your driving skills to the max with some of the most stupidest places you have to get parked into then you have to handball ■■■■ of Cages into the shops which can be a bloody nightmare but they pay 28k a year for that 48h week then time and half after 48h. Some lads are easily earning 35k with the overtime but it’s a job with graft.

I’ve got my class 1 test tomorrow because that’s what I want to do and looking around here in Leicester places are paying 12ph nights some even playing less.

Not sure what to do if I pass lol

JaxDemon:
I’ve got my class 1 test tomorrow

Good luck.