Driver Hire Umbrella and the 12 week rule

Winseer:

Muckaway:
What is an Umbrella scheme/system? Seen it mentioned and taken no notice but interested now I’m signed up with an agency (no work though, hence why I’m ad-hoc for a small local tipper firm).

Umbrella is the wages department charging a commission to fiddle your taxes, and process your payslip. If you like paying to get your own money being given to you, then go ahead and sign up. Personally, I’d put the umbrella contract underneath that square scented block in a urinal, and ■■■■ on it. :imp:

Are the umbrella company “Employ-E” who I work under lying in their own website ref no cost to the temp worker for payroll services:
employ-e.uk.com/index.php?pa … ay-service

Again:
employ-e.uk.com/index.php?temporary-worker

Lastly:
employ-e.uk.com/index.php?faqs :wink:

Also the majority of us full time agency drivers who work@ Tesco NI via Grafton/Jark are on the Employ-E temp worker payroll scheme but a couple of “aul boy” drivers who trust nobody nor anything have opted to stay direct with Grafton/Jark on PAYE.

During a “debate” in the drivers waiting room on Thur night one told me he gets approx £65 per 10hour shift (paid for 9hrs minus 1hr break time) NET in his wages, myself on the other hand via Employ-E earn approx £80 per shift NET.
Am I being ripped off :question: :exclamation: :exclamation: :confused:

Sure you are.

Thursday night pays more ANYWHERE if you didn’t work sunday to wednesday in front of it!

For most full timers, “thursday night” belongs to the taxman. :frowning:

Winseer:
Sure you are.

Thursday night pays more ANYWHERE if you didn’t work sunday to wednesday in front of it!

For most full timers, “thursday night” belongs to the taxman. :frowning:

Familiar with the word Pedantic :question: :wink:

Think you could be “slightly” out there with your figures for any of us with Employ-E,
I pay only around £16/week in tax (Ex NI payments) so your saying for a shift on Thur night(usually work Sun To Thur :sunglasses: )
I only earned £3.20 :question: :exclamation: :exclamation: :open_mouth: :unamused:

Let’s say the staple work is monday-friday 8 hour shifts @ £10ph for the sake of argument. Over the 5 days, You might offset £30 per day for tax offsets (mainly mileage and meals, but if SE will include other stuff right?)

So you do monday,tuesday,wednesday and sit the rest of the week out. You gross £240 and offset £90. That leaves £150 per week to pay tax on, which of course you WON’T pay tax on because it is below the L800 threshold!

Now do Monday-Friday, and as of Thursday you’ll start paying tax. Not a lot perhaps, but you’ll pay some nonetheless AND the NICS that kick in at similiar levels.

Monday-Thursday would be £320 gross, £120 offset, less £160 regular taxable allowance, tax to be paid on about £40 which is less than a tenner granted.
Monday-Friday would be £400 gross, £150 offset, less £160 regular taxable allowance, tax to be paid on about £90 which is clearly going to be staircasing up by more than double on top of thursday’s meagre tax payment.

It’s the NICs you don’t get back as rebate however, and of course any other income you have might use up that all-important £160 per week tax free allowance before you work day one, eg. if you are already drawing a pension, or get paid any taxable benefits - which I DON’T I hasten to add! :grimacing:

I’ll cram the work that has meaty mileage connected with it, and be happy with three or less shifts per week in the stuff that doesn’t.
If I found myself cramming work on my own doorstep, I’m likely to suffer for it tax-wise, but there is also a trade-off with how far/how easy it is to get somewhere so that effectively the commute becomes “part of the employment”. :wink:

Oh yes, I almost forgot.

If you are perm staff at a single locale, you won’t get any tax offsets for mileage/meals so that the example £400 per week gets taxed on £240 of it, which is a hell of a lot more tax than you’d pay as agency over 3+ locales per year to keep the mileage claims legit. :sunglasses:

At The combined income tax/NICS would mean losing about 30p in the pound altogether, which takes £72 off the taxable element of your £400 aggregate gross.

You could say therefore that working thursday/friday pays you the money of one shift and £8.00 extra, rather than £3.20 suggesting that my original off-the-cuff estimate with regards to “working thursday to pay the tax” wasn’t too far off the mark. :stuck_out_tongue:

Big Truck:
During a “debate” in the drivers waiting room on Thur night one told me he gets approx £65 per 10hour shift (paid for 9hrs minus 1hr break time) NET in his wages, myself on the other hand via Employ-E earn approx £80 per shift NET.
Am I being ripped off :question: :exclamation: :exclamation: :confused:

Christ. I was getting £80 net per 10hr shift with Driver Hire as a PAYE driver in 2008.

Are you sure yours is net and not gross? Do you know the difference?

I refuse to sign up to umbrella companies because I don’t believe all the expenses claims to be legal.
For example; The meal allowance (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/income-tax/brief2409.htm)

Qualifying conditions

Benchmark scale rates must only be used where all the qualifying conditions are met. The qualifying conditions are:

  • the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
  • the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
  • the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey

Early starter and late finisher rates
The early starter and late finisher rates are for use in exceptional circumstances only and not intended for employees with regular early or late work patterns.

Tax and NICs free scale rate payments must be limited to three meal rates in one day (or 24 hour period). A meal is defined as a combination of food and drink.

Where employees are required to start early or finish late on a regular basis, the over five hours or over ten hours rates could be paid provided all the other qualifying rules are satisfied.

I interpret that my place of work is the lorry not the yard I run out of. We know we’re going to be out on the road most likely away from a kitchen and so the meal allowance claim in my opinion is not legal.
£15 a day is £75 a week, £3,900 a year, how many lorry drivers are there in the uk? A quick search of t’internet tells me there are 309,100 not including van drivers. I know the figure probable isn’t accurate but to take it as an example it would mean that £1,205,490,000 (One thousand two hundred and five million four hundred and ninety thousand) has the potential to be lost out of the tax system every year just on food. Is the government really going to let that go? These umbrella companies are using very flimsy interpretations IMO and it will be the driver who has to pay the money back not the umbrella companies.
I claim for a few things like work clothes and ppe but if you start taking the mick with your expenses they’re going to investigate you eventually.

Conor:

Big Truck:
During a “debate” in the drivers waiting room on Thur night one told me he gets approx £65 per 10hour shift (paid for 9hrs minus 1hr break time) NET in his wages, myself on the other hand via Employ-E earn approx £80 per shift NET.
Am I being ripped off :question: :exclamation: :exclamation: :confused:

Christ. I was getting £80 net per 10hr shift with Driver Hire as a PAYE driver in 2008.

Are you sure yours is net and not gross? Do you know the difference?

Aye,

I think I do. :unamused:

Getting £80/take home per 10hour/shift in 2008 your hourly rates were better(so were Tesco agency, ALOT better :cry: ) than £10/hour on PAYE or you were fiddling the Taxman :exclamation: :exclamation:

Winseer:
Let’s say the staple work is monday-friday 8 hour shifts @ £10ph for the sake of argument. Over the 5 days, You might offset £30 per day for tax offsets (mainly mileage and meals, but if SE will include other stuff right?)

So you do monday,tuesday,wednesday and sit the rest of the week out. You gross £240 and offset £90. That leaves £150 per week to pay tax on, which of course you WON’T pay tax on because it is below the L800 threshold!

Now do Monday-Friday, and as of Thursday you’ll start paying tax. Not a lot perhaps, but you’ll pay some nonetheless AND the NICS that kick in at similiar levels.

Monday-Thursday would be £320 gross, £120 offset, less £160 regular taxable allowance, tax to be paid on about £40 which is less than a tenner granted.
Monday-Friday would be £400 gross, £150 offset, less £160 regular taxable allowance, tax to be paid on about £90 which is clearly going to be staircasing up by more than double on top of thursday’s meagre tax payment.

It’s the NICs you don’t get back as rebate however, and of course any other income you have might use up that all-important £160 per week tax free allowance before you work day one, eg. if you are already drawing a pension, or get paid any taxable benefits - which I DON’T I hasten to add! :grimacing:

I’ll cram the work that has meaty mileage connected with it, and be happy with three or less shifts per week in the stuff that doesn’t.
If I found myself cramming work on my own doorstep, I’m likely to suffer for it tax-wise, but there is also a trade-off with how far/how easy it is to get somewhere so that effectively the commute becomes “part of the employment”. :wink:

Working full time agency for Grafton we have the choice of being PAYE or working via Employ-E and for some reason we can’t move over to being fully SE, so I’m happy enough to stay working under the Umbrella company as it seems are thousands of others.
Some of the Jark agency drivers who drive part-time and have their own driving schools or wrecker companies can opt to be fully SE as they already have their own accounts but AFAIA Grafton don’t allow same. :frowning:

I work 80% Tesco and 20% Sainsburys so “keep myself right” that I’m not at the same company expenses claim wise. :wink:

I might add that Northern Ireland has a VERY small number of haulage companies that use agency AND can offer regular full time work with half reasonable hourly rates, so our hands are tied somewhat by the laws of “supply & demand”.
To opt on to SE and go down the “freelance” route I would doubt I would get near the 44/50hours I get most weeks via Grafton about this part of the country :exclamation: :exclamation: :neutral_face:

10-08:
I refuse to sign up to umbrella companies because I don’t believe all the expenses claims to be legal.
For example; The meal allowance (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/income-tax/brief2409.htm)

Qualifying conditions

Benchmark scale rates must only be used where all the qualifying conditions are met. The qualifying conditions are:

  • the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
  • the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
  • the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey

Early starter and late finisher rates
The early starter and late finisher rates are for use in exceptional circumstances only and not intended for employees with regular early or late work patterns.

Tax and NICs free scale rate payments must be limited to three meal rates in one day (or 24 hour period). A meal is defined as a combination of food and drink.

Where employees are required to start early or finish late on a regular basis, the over five hours or over ten hours rates could be paid provided all the other qualifying rules are satisfied.

I interpret that my place of work is the lorry not the yard I run out of. We know we’re going to be out on the road most likely away from a kitchen and so the meal allowance claim in my opinion is not legal.
£15 a day is £75 a week, £3,900 a year, how many lorry drivers are there in the uk? A quick search of t’internet tells me there are 309,100 not including van drivers. I know the figure probable isn’t accurate but to take it as an example it would mean that £1,205,490,000 (One thousand two hundred and five million four hundred and ninety thousand) has the potential to be lost out of the tax system every year just on food. Is the government really going to let that go? These umbrella companies are using very flimsy interpretations IMO and it will be the driver who has to pay the money back not the umbrella companies.
I claim for a few things like work clothes and ppe but if you start taking the mick with your expenses they’re going to investigate you eventually.

Any “Trolly Dolly” agency driver will not know from one load to the next were he/she will be for their meal break. :wink:

Any PAYE Police Officer UK wide can make the EXACT same mileage/meal claims IF they are away from their own Police station for a certain amount of time ON DUTY or have to use their own car for attending court/training etc etc.
Are HM Customs & Excise going to ask for their money back too over the 30yrs of Police service :question: :exclamation: :exclamation:

Big Truck:

10-08:
I refuse to sign up to umbrella companies because I don’t believe all the expenses claims to be legal.
For example; The meal allowance (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/income-tax/brief2409.htm)

Qualifying conditions

Benchmark scale rates must only be used where all the qualifying conditions are met. The qualifying conditions are:

  • the travel must be in the performance of an employee’s duties or to a temporary place of work
  • the employee should be absent from his normal place of work or home for a continuous period in excess of five hours or ten hours
  • the employee should have incurred a cost on a meal (food and drink) after starting the journey

Early starter and late finisher rates
The early starter and late finisher rates are for use in exceptional circumstances only and not intended for employees with regular early or late work patterns.

Tax and NICs free scale rate payments must be limited to three meal rates in one day (or 24 hour period). A meal is defined as a combination of food and drink.

Where employees are required to start early or finish late on a regular basis, the over five hours or over ten hours rates could be paid provided all the other qualifying rules are satisfied.

I interpret that my place of work is the lorry not the yard I run out of. We know we’re going to be out on the road most likely away from a kitchen and so the meal allowance claim in my opinion is not legal.
£15 a day is £75 a week, £3,900 a year, how many lorry drivers are there in the uk? A quick search of t’internet tells me there are 309,100 not including van drivers. I know the figure probable isn’t accurate but to take it as an example it would mean that £1,205,490,000 (One thousand two hundred and five million four hundred and ninety thousand) has the potential to be lost out of the tax system every year just on food. Is the government really going to let that go? These umbrella companies are using very flimsy interpretations IMO and it will be the driver who has to pay the money back not the umbrella companies.
I claim for a few things like work clothes and ppe but if you start taking the mick with your expenses they’re going to investigate you eventually.

Any “Trolly Dolly” agency driver will not know from one load to the next were he/she will be for their meal break. :wink:

Any PAYE Police Officer UK wide can make the EXACT same mileage/meal claims IF they are away from their own Police station for a certain amount of time ON DUTY or have to use their own car for attending court/training etc etc.
Are HM Customs & Excise going to ask for their money back too over the 30yrs of Police service :question: :exclamation: :exclamation:

My argument is you’ll be in the lorry as that is the nature of your job. It is a lot easier if you have your own unit as you can cook when and where you like, agreed it’s a bugger for agency drivers but then that’s what sandwiches are for. :slight_smile:

As for comparing it to the police force, well it’s not really a fair comparison is it? They don’t seem to have to obey laws like the rest of us. :laughing:
Anyway it’s just my opinion on the matter but I think these umbrella companies chance it a bit.

Winseer:

Muckaway:
What is an Umbrella scheme/system? Seen it mentioned and taken no notice but interested now I’m signed up with an agency (no work though, hence why I’m ad-hoc for a small local tipper firm).

Umbrella is the wages department charging a commission to fiddle your taxes, and process your payslip. If you like paying to get your own money being given to you, then go ahead and sign up. Personally, I’d put the umbrella contract underneath that square scented block in a urinal, and ■■■■ on it. :imp:

Umbrella scheme was the only option when I signed up for DH. I was a little reluctant but there was no other work coming my way, and I’m booked for 6 nights on work I’ve never done so I’m glad of the experience. Just sent my expenses form with shopping (£88) and fuel (£40) receipts. I didn’t think it was legal to claim all that much on shopping but was told by DH that I can. What sort of “expenses” payment would I be getting back? According to umbrella leaflet, the employee isn’t charged but the fee comes out of the hire rate charged to the client. I guess this just means a reduced hourly rate for me?

Muckaway:
Umbrella scheme was the only option when I signed up for DH. I was a little reluctant but there was no other work coming my way, and I’m booked for 6 nights on work I’ve never done so I’m glad of the experience. Just sent my expenses form with shopping (£88) and fuel (£40) receipts. I didn’t think it was legal to claim all that much on shopping but was told by DH that I can. What sort of “expenses” payment would I be getting back? According to umbrella leaflet, the employee isn’t charged but the fee comes out of the hire rate charged to the client. I guess this just means a reduced hourly rate for me?

You can’t claim for shopping unless it is for equipment and clothing related to the job. You need to be claiming mileage as you’ll get more.

The client doesn’t get charged at all. You merely get tax relief for the amount of expenses you claim so if you put in £100 worth of travel expenses, that is £100 you’ll not pay tax on so you’d get £20 more in your pocket than if you weren’t able to claim it. You wouldn’t get an additional £100.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what an “expenses payment” actually is.

If you are a toff claiming expenses, you’ll actually be given an extra sum of money which can be spent on things like upgrades to first class travel, fancy hotel rooms, expensive restaraunt bills, and the like. If you don’t spend the money on these things, you won’t get given it back as a cash rebate.

For middle class people claiming expenses, the system is pretty much the same as for working class claimants. You put down expenses directly related to doing your job. Having the presidential suite instead of a flea pit room in a hotel is NOT essential to your job, unless it’s nobbing with other high ups (which alas it often is!) so the likes of you or I would never be allowed to claim for such things.

Fuel, Meals, Overnight stays in accommodation, work clothing, and tolls are the most common things working folk claim on expense forms.
They, however do NOT get given “cash to the equivalent of” out of the firm’s pocket, nor the clients. It is a tax offset which means less of your gross pay is taxable than would be otherwise. I’ll say it again: The taxman gets to charge tax on less of your gross pay than otherwise would be the case.
Eg. Earn £330, tax offset £130, leaves £200 taxable, of which £160 further is deducted as your “tax free allowance” from your tax code, assumining it is just above £8k per year (L816) as mine might be. Thus, you end up being fully taxed on the princely sum of about £40 of your £330 wage packet, which is less than a tenner. However, I do have to actually incur the expense. Most of what I claim personally is mileage, so I prefer working at locations far away but easy to get to (eg. a few miles down the motorway using the nearby linkroad to get onto said motorway, without having to drive through rush hour traffic in town…) Because where I live and where I work are known documented details, the taxman won’t be asking me for any money back that has been “overclaimed” because it won’t be in the first place! :stuck_out_tongue:
Play it straight therefore, and be rewarded.

I rarely pay tax with the work patterns I work, but that doesn’t stop me from taking home a net £18k for the year, based on the same work patterns as I had last year. I’m not a scrounger for doing this, any more than I’m a scrounger for denying umbrella firms from charging me their “fiddle fees”.
There’s not much point me going self-employed though, because may tax due won’t ever drop below zero, and it’s pretty close to that already.
IF I were being paid what I called a ‘toff’s expense’, (actual extra pay for things like jet travel) then it WOULD then be worth going self-employed however. I believe BBC staff have been busy doing these for some time, which has come to the public’s attention.

I still believe that £18ph is the minimum amount I’d invoice to make it worth my while going self-employed, with the lifestyle of expenses that I have. :sunglasses:
AS we all know, the market won’t stand that as it is, but maybe one day in the not too distant future?.. :wink:

If your car runs for less than 45p per mile, you’ll be making a profit out of tax-offsetting it of course. That’s the attraction of the whole damned thing more than anything else! Meals will only get you what you spent in McDonalds, or wherever. Clothing, Tolls, & Accommodation ditto.
MILEAGE is where the money can be made - IF you have a vehicle that’s cheaper than 45p/mile to run.
Well? - Do you all?
C’mon let’s see some willies flopping out here! :smiley:

Just had my 6th night shift cancelled, when this morning client asked me if I could start an hour earlier because they were busy. Any reason why this could be or am I being suspicious?

Anyone know what “margin” means on an umbrella wage slip?

^^^^^ Post an edited down payslip, so we can see it in context.

Without seeing, I might guess it’s the fee they charge to process a payslip. £27ish is common enough. :angry:

I did wonder if it was that, on mine it says £20. There’s a box with “company receipts” which I’d guess is like your gross earnings. Next is a box with deductions showing figures for margin, HMRC NERS, Holiday retained (with amount-funny as I’ve only done 3 nights on this payslip). Another box with “comments” and £x exenses carried forward. I understand so much of expenses are carried over if wages aren’t upto a certain amount. Can’t understand why net pay is about £100 under the gross, then jumps to what I’d expect a normal wage to be after normal deductions.
Did get a leaflet when I started about the umbrella scheme, but no information on how to decipher a wage slip. Seems a long winded load of ■■■■■■■■ to me, but there’s no other option with DH.

Not sure if everyone is aware, but apparently you can’t claim fuel allowance if the rate is less than £8 ph. I was offered a 7.5t job in Tewkesbury for about £7.50 earlier. Without sounding choosy, I wouldn’t do it for that as there’s no fuel allowance and I live too far away to make it pay. I also think accepting too low a rate just screws it up for every other job,