Driver CPC, new guidance

[own_account_driver]

Jocoh:

Own Account Driver:

hgvlgvtraining:
Whether you drive that vehicle for 5 minutes or 5 months, if your work involves “collecting/delivering” for the purposes of commerce (related) then you need Driver CPC.

Private use: No Driver CPC.
Commercial use (in this instance) Driver CPC.

Don’t relay on calling the DVSA or DVLA. You are calling a call center and most of the staff are reading guidance of the internet. You can get a different answer depending on who you are speaking to!

Not true whatsoever.

Hard to decide if it’s just a case of DCPC trainers claiming people need it in an attempt to drum up business or they just don’t know what they’re talking about - from experience I fear the latter.

Yep I tend to agree with you. We have looked into this from many angles, and all the information that has come back clearly states that you do not need a Driver CPC if it is not Hire & Reward. And Hire & Reward is very clear, if you hire out a Vehicle for reward ( IE" Payment for services rendered ) then that constitutes Hire & Reward. And so Any Driver would need a Driver CPC. If you Hire or own a vehicle to move goods pertaining to your own company then that is not Hire & Reward. And as long as the driver is suitably qualified to drive that vehicle then you are breaking no laws.

They would need it if lorry driving occupied the majority of their working time.

[dieseldave]

Jocoh:
… We have looked into this from many angles, and all the information that has come back clearly states that you do not need a Driver CPC if it is not Hire & Reward. And Hire & Reward is very clear, if you hire out a Vehicle for reward ( IE" Payment for services rendered ) then that constitutes Hire & Reward. And so Any Driver would need a Driver CPC. If you Hire or own a vehicle to move goods pertaining to your own company then that is not Hire & Reward. And as long as the driver is suitably qualified to drive that vehicle then you are breaking no laws.

Hi Jocoh,

I think there might be a little confusion wafting around, so I’ll offer my 2p worth in the hope that it helps.

The phrases “Hire and Reward” and “Own Account” belong to a different conversation involving the type of ‘O’ licence needed for a commercial vehicle >3.5t used in connection with a trade or business, but I’d respectfully submit that this has no connection to the topic at hand.

The guidelines for DCPC are that a driver who drives professionally as a driver (regardles of the type of ‘O’ licence) needs a DCPC.

The usual exemption to this is if driving is not a vehicle >3.5t driver’s main activity.

Examples would be a scaffolder or a tree surgeon, who might drive a vehicle >3.5t (regardles of the type of ‘O’ licence) from “A” to “B,” then do their ‘real’ job for the day, then drive back from “B” to “A,” or even to “C” to do their next job.

===================

Two scenarios to follow on…

Scenario #1
A scaffolding company owns their own scaffolding, which they hire out and erect for a number of different builders.
The 18t scaffold truck is crewed by scaffolders, one of whom is the driver.
The driver has the relevant LGV Cat C licence for the vehicle in question.
The vehicle crew (including the driver) all work at erecting, maintaining and moving the scaffolding around on the work site(s) at the builder’s request.
The transport charges associated with hiring out the scaffolding are incorporated in the scaffold company’s overall invoice to the builder.

The vehicle needs an “Own Account” ‘O’ licence because the scaffold company owns the scaffolding carried by the vehicle.
The driver does NOT need a DCPC because driving is not his main activity.

Scenario #2
A very large building firm need 10t of their scaffolding moving from their yard to their customer’s site, so they hire in a transport firm to do this delivery job.

The vehicle needs a “Hire and Reward” ‘O’ licence because the vehicle owner is doing a transport job and doesn’t own the load being carried.
The driver in this case does need a DCPC because driving is his main activity.

BUT…
Now lets say that the company in scenario 2 subcontracts the company in scenario 1 to move their scaffold and erect it, maintain it etc…

The company in scenario 1 would then need a “Hire and Reward” ‘O’ licence because it’s not their scaffold being carried on their vehicle, but their driver would still NOT need a DCPC because driving is not his main activity.

=================

In the real world, the company who normally needs the “Own Account” licence in scenario 1 might “buy” the scaffolding (temporarily ) then do the job and sell it back again later so as not to infringe the ‘O’ licencing rules. Even if they did that, it’s the driver’s main activity that governs whether he needs a DCPC.

[own_account_driver]

dieseldave:

Jocoh:
… We have looked into this from many angles, and all the information that has come back clearly states that you do not need a Driver CPC if it is not Hire & Reward. And Hire & Reward is very clear, if you hire out a Vehicle for reward ( IE" Payment for services rendered ) then that constitutes Hire & Reward. And so Any Driver would need a Driver CPC. If you Hire or own a vehicle to move goods pertaining to your own company then that is not Hire & Reward. And as long as the driver is suitably qualified to drive that vehicle then you are breaking no laws.

Hi Jocoh,

I think there might be a little confusion wafting around, so I’ll offer my 2p worth in the hope that it helps.

The phrases “Hire and Reward” and “Own Account” belong to a different conversation involving the type of ‘O’ licence needed for a commercial vehicle >3.5t used in connection with a trade or business, but I’d respectfully submit that this has no connection to the topic at hand.

The guidelines for DCPC are that a driver who drives professionally as a driver (regardles of the type of ‘O’ licence) needs a DCPC.

The usual exemption to this is if driving is not a vehicle >3.5t driver’s main activity.

Examples would be a scaffolder or a tree surgeon, who might drive a vehicle >3.5t (regardles of the type of ‘O’ licence) from “A” to “B,” then do their ‘real’ job for the day, then drive back from “B” to “A,” or even to “C” to do their next job.

===================

Two scenarios to follow on…

Scenario #1
A scaffolding company owns their own scaffolding, which they hire out and erect for a number of different builders.
The 18t scaffold truck is crewed by scaffolders, one of whom is the driver.
The driver has the relevant LGV Cat C licence for the vehicle in question.
The vehicle crew (including the driver) all work at erecting, maintaining and moving the scaffolding around on the work site(s) at the builder’s request.
The transport charges associated with hiring out the scaffolding are incorporated in the scaffold company’s overall invoice to the builder.

The vehicle needs an “Own Account” ‘O’ licence because the scaffold company owns the scaffolding carried by the vehicle.
The driver does NOT need a DCPC because driving is not his main activity.

Scenario #2
A very large building firm need 10t of their scaffolding moving from their yard to their customer’s site, so they hire in a transport firm to do this delivery job.

The vehicle needs a “Hire and Reward” ‘O’ licence because the vehicle owner is doing a transport job and doesn’t own the load being carried.
The driver in this case does need a DCPC because driving is his main activity.

BUT…
Now lets say that the company in scenario 2 subcontracts the company in scenario 1 to move their scaffold and erect it, maintain it etc…

The company in scenario 1 would then need a “Hire and Reward” ‘O’ licence because it’s not their scaffold being carried on their vehicle, but their driver would still NOT need a DCPC because driving is not his main activity.

=================

In the real world, the company who normally needs the “Own Account” licence in scenario 1 might “buy” the scaffolding (temporarily ) then do the job and sell it back again later so as not to infringe the ‘O’ licencing rules. Even if they did that, it’s the driver’s main activity that governs whether he needs a DCPC.

Very sorry To confuse things further but not sure the scaffolding example for o-licence is correct. It won’t matter who the Scaffolding poles belong to it would still be totally fine on a restricted licence. In your example it would fail the test for hire and reward.

[dieseldave]

Own Account Driver:
Very sorry To confuse things further but not sure the scaffolding example for o-licence is correct. It won’t matter who the Scaffolding poles belong to it would still be totally fine on a restricted licence. In your example it would fail the test for hire and reward.

Hi OAD,
It’s generally seen as the ownership of the goods being carried that decides the type of ‘O’ licence required.

In my scenario #2 above, the large company needs their scaffolding to be transported.

The transport company in scenario #2 is carrying goods that aren’t theirs, and therefore needs a ‘Standard National’ (= Hire and Reward) ‘O’ licence for that very reason.

I feel that there’s some confusion around terminology, because an Own Account ‘O’ licence is called by exactly that name, whereas there’s no such thing in law as a “Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence.”

There are two kinds of Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence, namely: Standard National and Standard International.
In scenario #2, the transport company would need a Standard National ‘O’ licence, because they don’t own the goods being carried and are therefore transporting them for Hire and Reward.

I’d be interested to see “the test for hire and reward” so do you have a link please?

[own_account_driver]

dieseldave:

Own Account Driver:
Very sorry To confuse things further but not sure the scaffolding example for o-licence is correct. It won’t matter who the Scaffolding poles belong to it would still be totally fine on a restricted licence. In your example it would fail the test for hire and reward.

Hi OAD,
It’s generally seen as the ownership of the goods being carried that decides the type of ‘O’ licence required.

In my scenario #2 above, the large company needs their scaffolding to be transported.

The transport company in scenario #2 is carrying goods that aren’t theirs, and therefore needs a ‘Standard National’ (= Hire and Reward) ‘O’ licence for that very reason.

I feel that there’s some confusion around terminology, because an Own Account ‘O’ licence is called by exactly that name, whereas there’s no such thing in law as a “Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence.”

There are two kinds of Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence, namely: Standard National and Standard International.
In scenario #2, the transport company would need a Standard National ‘O’ licence, because they don’t own the goods being carried and are therefore transporting them for Hire and Reward.

I’d be interested to see “the test for hire and reward” so do you have a link please?

It’s more extensive than the ownership of the goods. If in your BUT example you’d just said deliver another company’s poles for cash then it wouldn’t be ok for a restricted licence but because you said erect and maintain then it is still covered as the transport is ancillary to the main business activity of erecting and maintaining the scaffolding so ownership becomes irrelevant and is not considered a hire and reward transaction.

Similarly a company that maintains and repairs production line machinery can deliver and collect machinery for repair, that at no point technically belongs to them, and also charge the customer collection and delivery and the transaction is not considered hire and reward and regardless of distance the transport is considered ancillary to repairing and maintaining production line machinery. It is the same sort of metric as DCPC where it’s all down to what the main activity for the transaction is considered to be.

The area that crops up time and again is furniture removal which is considered a hire and reward transaction despite the claims that the road transport is ancillary to the main activity of manhandling goods thus requiring a standard national licence. Pretty much in all cases it is much more the case if the operation is behaving like a road haulier taking jobs in a hire and reward basis they need a standard national licence rather than strictly ownership of the goods.

It is all in a DFT more extensive document on goods vehicle licensing than what they display on the website I will try and see if I can upload a screenshot.

[dieseldave]

Own Account Driver:

dieseldave:

Own Account Driver:
Very sorry To confuse things further but not sure the scaffolding example for o-licence is correct. It won’t matter who the Scaffolding poles belong to it would still be totally fine on a restricted licence. In your example it would fail the test for hire and reward.

Hi OAD,
It’s generally seen as the ownership of the goods being carried that decides the type of ‘O’ licence required.

In my scenario #2 above, the large company needs their scaffolding to be transported.

The transport company in scenario #2 is carrying goods that aren’t theirs, and therefore needs a ‘Standard National’ (= Hire and Reward) ‘O’ licence for that very reason.

I feel that there’s some confusion around terminology, because an Own Account ‘O’ licence is called by exactly that name, whereas there’s no such thing in law as a “Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence.”

There are two kinds of Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence, namely: Standard National and Standard International.
In scenario #2, the transport company would need a Standard National ‘O’ licence, because they don’t own the goods being carried and are therefore transporting them for Hire and Reward.

I’d be interested to see “the test for hire and reward” so do you have a link please?

It’s more extensive than the ownership of the goods. If in your BUT example you’d just said deliver another company’s poles for cash then it wouldn’t be ok for a restricted licence but because you said erect and maintain then it is still covered as the transport is ancillary to the main business activity of erecting and maintaining the scaffolding so ownership becomes irrelevant and is not considered a hire and reward transaction.

Similarly a company that maintains and repairs production line machinery can deliver and collect machinery for repair, that at no point technically belongs to them, and also charge the customer collection and delivery and the transaction is not considered hire and reward and regardless of distance the transport is considered ancillary to repairing and maintaining production line machinery. It is the same sort of metric as DCPC where it’s all down to what the main activity for the transaction is considered to be.

The area that crops up time and again is furniture removal which is considered a hire and reward transaction despite the claims that the road transport is ancillary to the main activity of manhandling goods thus requiring a standard national licence. Pretty much in all cases it is much more the case if the operation is behaving like a road haulier taking jobs in a hire and reward basis they need a standard national licence rather than strictly ownership of the goods.

It is all in a DFT more extensive document on goods vehicle licensing than what they display on the website I will try and see if I can upload a screenshot.

Hi OAD,

The “erect and maintain” was in scenario #1, which I used to illustrate (for DCPC purposes) that driving wasn’t the driver’s main activity. (Regardless of ‘O’ licence considerations.)

Scenario #2 was meant to illustrate a driver whose main activity is driving. (Regardles of ‘O’ licence considerations.)

I attempted to extricate the term “hire and reward” from the present topic of DCPC, in which it has no place.

It might be that the term “hire and reward” when used in the context of DCPC might be better said as “a driver whose job involves being paid a wage for being a driver and associated duties.”

Your point about the ‘O’ licence needs of a company who collect/recondition/deliver machinery isn’t something I’ve ever looked into, so in the absence of the time needed to look it up, I won’t express an opinion on that point. The driver of that company may or may not need a DCPC depending on the duties expected of him.

I do agree that a removals firm needs a Standard National (or Standard International) ‘O’ licence though.

[old_john]

Bri_8691:
Hi All,
I’ve not driven professionally for 13 years plus - originally passed LGV 2 and then 1 (although never used the 1 in employment) - I stopped pre CPC etc, - Now working in a small factory.
My employer has asked me to drive a hire 7.5t, (assuming he can get one) to go collect a piece of machinery he’s bought… (driving is not part of my usual job at all now)
This involves a 7 hour round trip of 440 miles.

I know the rules are very different these days - can anyone tell me if CPC is officially needed, even for a ‘one off’ trip of this nature? I read (rather quickly) that there are exemptions, but I am not, in effect, driving for ‘personal reasons’ or under the 60(ish) mile limit i read about…, and all during the ‘lock down’ too…

The DVLA helpline was closed when I tried ringing … can anyone give clarity please? Thanks in advance…

I reckon your man is exempt. Why?
A. Driving is not at all the main part of his employment at the firm.
B. The equipment he has to collect is quite clearly something which is required to be used in the course of his work.

The government guidance is, for once, quite clear.

[own_account_driver]

Old John:

Bri_8691:
Hi All,
I’ve not driven professionally for 13 years plus - originally passed LGV 2 and then 1 (although never used the 1 in employment) - I stopped pre CPC etc, - Now working in a small factory.
My employer has asked me to drive a hire 7.5t, (assuming he can get one) to go collect a piece of machinery he’s bought… (driving is not part of my usual job at all now)
This involves a 7 hour round trip of 440 miles.

I know the rules are very different these days - can anyone tell me if CPC is officially needed, even for a ‘one off’ trip of this nature? I read (rather quickly) that there are exemptions, but I am not, in effect, driving for ‘personal reasons’ or under the 60(ish) mile limit i read about…, and all during the ‘lock down’ too…

The DVLA helpline was closed when I tried ringing … can anyone give clarity please? Thanks in advance…

I reckon your man is exempt. Why?
A. Driving is not at all the main part of his employment at the firm.
B. The equipment he has to collect is quite clearly something which is required to be used in the course of his work.

The government guidance is, for once, quite clear.

Yep, seems to have mostly been DCPC trainers trying to drum up business claiming otherwise.

[own_account_driver]

dieseldave:

Own Account Driver:

dieseldave:

Own Account Driver:
Very sorry To confuse things further but not sure the scaffolding example for o-licence is correct. It won’t matter who the Scaffolding poles belong to it would still be totally fine on a restricted licence. In your example it would fail the test for hire and reward.

Hi OAD,
It’s generally seen as the ownership of the goods being carried that decides the type of ‘O’ licence required.

In my scenario #2 above, the large company needs their scaffolding to be transported.

The transport company in scenario #2 is carrying goods that aren’t theirs, and therefore needs a ‘Standard National’ (= Hire and Reward) ‘O’ licence for that very reason.

I feel that there’s some confusion around terminology, because an Own Account ‘O’ licence is called by exactly that name, whereas there’s no such thing in law as a “Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence.”

There are two kinds of Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence, namely: Standard National and Standard International.
In scenario #2, the transport company would need a Standard National ‘O’ licence, because they don’t own the goods being carried and are therefore transporting them for Hire and Reward.

I’d be interested to see “the test for hire and reward” so do you have a link please?

It’s more extensive than the ownership of the goods. If in your BUT example you’d just said deliver another company’s poles for cash then it wouldn’t be ok for a restricted licence but because you said erect and maintain then it is still covered as the transport is ancillary to the main business activity of erecting and maintaining the scaffolding so ownership becomes irrelevant and is not considered a hire and reward transaction.

Similarly a company that maintains and repairs production line machinery can deliver and collect machinery for repair, that at no point technically belongs to them, and also charge the customer collection and delivery and the transaction is not considered hire and reward and regardless of distance the transport is considered ancillary to repairing and maintaining production line machinery. It is the same sort of metric as DCPC where it’s all down to what the main activity for the transaction is considered to be.

The area that crops up time and again is furniture removal which is considered a hire and reward transaction despite the claims that the road transport is ancillary to the main activity of manhandling goods thus requiring a standard national licence. Pretty much in all cases it is much more the case if the operation is behaving like a road haulier taking jobs in a hire and reward basis they need a standard national licence rather than strictly ownership of the goods.

It is all in a DFT more extensive document on goods vehicle licensing than what they display on the website I will try and see if I can upload a screenshot.

Hi OAD,

The “erect and maintain” was in scenario #1, which I used to illustrate (for DCPC purposes) that driving wasn’t the driver’s main activity. (Regardless of ‘O’ licence considerations.)

Scenario #2 was meant to illustrate a driver whose main activity is driving. (Regardles of ‘O’ licence considerations.)

I attempted to extricate the term “hire and reward” from the present topic of DCPC, in which it has no place.

It might be that the term “hire and reward” when used in the context of DCPC might be better said as “a driver whose job involves being paid a wage for being a driver and associated duties.”

Your point about the ‘O’ licence needs of a company who collect/recondition/deliver machinery isn’t something I’ve ever looked into, so in the absence of the time needed to look it up, I won’t express an opinion on that point. The driver of that company may or may not need a DCPC depending on the duties expected of him.

I do agree that a removals firm needs a Standard National (or Standard International) ‘O’ licence though.

Sorry, didn’t see you replied I was referring to this bit

BUT…
Now lets say that the company in scenario 2 subcontracts the company in scenario 1 to move their scaffold and erect it, maintain it etc…

If you’d stopped at move (ie hire and reward) then this wouldn’t be compliant with a restricted licence but because of the added the erect and maintain it would make it fine under restricted and the actual ownership of the scaffolding wouldn’t matter.

I understand the thread had got confusing but hire and reward is relevant to DCPC because any hire and reward would always requires it.

[alexobrah]

Hello,
I have lost my CPC card but I still have the paper part and proof of pass, booking confirmation,
will I be able to drive using this and if not what fine would I be hit with for Driving without
the card.
Thanks in Advance

[jameshub]

Anyone know cheap on-line CPC renewal courses? - prices seem to vary a lot…mine expires in November
cheers

[zac_a]

Try VR Recruitment, somewhere in Scotland, were doing it for £35 per day. I don’t have their details handy but a search of these boards will bring it up. However, when I enquired with them recently the said they were doing it up till 31st August, don’t know if they’re going to continue doing it after that date. Their Trainer will be worn out by now

[jameshub]

Zac_A:
Try VR Recruitment, somewhere in Scotland, were doing it for £35 per day. I don’t have their details handy but a search of these boards will bring it up. However, when I enquired with them recently the said they were doing it up till 31st August, don’t know if they’re going to continue doing it after that date. Their Trainer will be worn out by now

Cheers for that

[scaniaultimate]

Zac_A:
Try VR Recruitment, somewhere in Scotland, were doing it for £35 per day. I don’t have their details handy but a search of these boards will bring it up. However, when I enquired with them recently the said they were doing it up till 31st August, don’t know if they’re going to continue doing it after that date. Their Trainer will be worn out by now

I second that recommendation.
I have just done 2 modules with VR Recruitment Services Limited (01698 674 019) at the lowest price by far I’ve ever paid for D-CPC modules.
Despite never having done a Zoom meeting before, I found the whole thing easy & much preferable to sitting in a classroom.
Access to the course organiser was exceptional by phone & email.
My only worry was paying by bank transfer (I prefer having the cover of credit card Section 75) but I did check them out thoroughly first.

Their courses are continuing beyond 31st August.
That date was the previous Government trial period end date; which has now been extended.
VR informed us on the course that they were taking bookings for September & October 2020.

At £35 a module I can’t see much reason to go elsewhere.

[gs_overland]

Zac_A:
Try VR Recruitment, somewhere in Scotland, were doing it for £35 per day. I don’t have their details handy but a search of these boards will bring it up. However, when I enquired with them recently the said they were doing it up till 31st August, don’t know if they’re going to continue doing it after that date. Their Trainer will be worn out by now

Hi All
I have just completed my 35 Hours DCPC online with VR-Recruitment which will enable me to update/renew my Class 1 with Aquired Rights (Grandfathers Rights).
I found them to be very professional and the price was really good value.
I would like to recommend them.
Now it’s time to get back in the saddle after over 25yrs off the road. !
GS

[waddy640]

My Class C+E lapsed in 2018 if I wish to reinstate it now what is required? I am 69.

[danny_b]

fuse:
W.hat I was getting at was to get the country going again we need to dump things like FORS ,CLOCS ECT Driver cpc In my eyes the clocs and fors are like the mafia you need it to work ,no different to protection money I just do not think they make the job safer

I have to agree with the FORS and the like. It’s just a corporate money maker with no real advantage to the industry. I’ve only done FORS training, none of the others and they insulting and non CPC uploadable but No FORS etc, no chance at contract tenders and so forth. WTD I feel should stay because that seems to have proved to make the roads safer. However like the auld boys will say, isn’t our licence proof of our professional competence not to mention continued hours being recorded on your digi card, dcpc should be scrapped, again just a money maker. If you were to sit your class 2 & 1 plus initial DCPC, medical etc you’re already paying upward of £2.5k. How many other industries have to pay as much as drivers just to go to work or tender for a contract?

[danny_b]

waddy640:
My Class C+E lapsed in 2018 if I wish to reinstate it now what is required? I am 69.

If your CPC is up to date I’m sure it would just be a medical and informing the DVLA.

[henrys_cat]

Danny_b:

fuse:
W.hat I was getting at was to get the country going again we need to dump things like FORS ,CLOCS ECT Driver cpc In my eyes the clocs and fors are like the mafia you need it to work ,no different to protection money I just do not think they make the job safer

I have to agree with the FORS and the like. It’s just a corporate money maker with no real advantage to the industry. I’ve only done FORS training, none of the others and they insulting and non CPC uploadable but No FORS etc, no chance at contract tenders and so forth. WTD I feel should stay because that seems to have proved to make the roads safer. However like the auld boys will say, isn’t our licence proof of our professional competence not to mention continued hours being recorded on your digi card, dcpc should be scrapped, again just a money maker. If you were to sit your class 2 & 1 plus initial DCPC, medical etc you’re already paying upward of £2.5k. How many other industries have to pay as much as drivers just to go to work or tender for a contract?

Think you’ll find a lot of other skilled industries require refresher courses to work. I’ve just left the rail industry and think it cost my employer iro £500/year to keep my tickets up to date, had I been self employed that would have fallen on me.

Luckily I’m with a haulier who values his staff and pays for their DCPC.

Due to legislation changes, and the amount of times general questions get asked on here and other social media, then some form of regular training/updating is required. And lets face it a full DCPC course is now iro £250 for 5 years, so based on a 40hrs week its 2pence per hour worked to earn a living.

[zac_a]

Henrys cat:
Due to legislation changes, and the amount of times general questions get asked on here and other social media, then some form of regular training/updating is required.

+1
How many drivers on here are aware of the couple of things they could now use to their advantage, following the Driver’s Hours rules update of 20th August this year?