Which was the first vehicle in which the driver sat over the steering wheel rather than behind it like they do in older lorry’s, just wondered, I asked this on another page but was advised someone on here might know better
atlas man:
Which was the first vehicle in which the driver sat over the steering wheel rather than behind it like they do in older lorry’s, just wondered, I asked this on another page but was advised someone on here might know better
DRIVING POSITION. If I read you right: you want to know which were the first Forward Control lorries as opposed to the older car-like Normal Control ones. Or, as the Americans call Forward Control - CoE (or Cab over Engine). Dunno the answer but it must have been back in the '20s. Robert
Just googled ‘earliest cabover’ and got quite a good history from America. Here’s the link. Robert
When you see the old motors with LAD cab, old fodens , ERFs , the old Traders and the foreign motors the drivers are sat behind the wheel, I just wondered who made the first one were the driver was sat over the wheel which became the normal and what seems to be the standard position in all lorry’s now im just getting old and these silly questions pop in to your head 
atlas man:
When you see the old motors with LAD cab, old fodens , ERFs , the old Traders and the foreign motors the drivers are sat behind the wheel, I just wondered who made the first one were the driver was sat over the wheel which became the normal and what seems to be the standard position in all lorry’s now im just getting old and these silly questions pop in to your head
As described elsewhere the ‘driver sat over the wheel’ is just another description of the typical horizontal wheel setting which characterises the cab over/forward control design.As opposed to the typical more vertical setting of the conventional/normal control design which is dictated by front axle position relative to cab.
Within all that are obviously a number of grey areas which could be described as short nose conventional or long nose cab over.Those grey areas can result in the type of anomalies which you’ve described.Whereby it is possible to have a cab over/forward control design but with a more relatively vertical wheel position expected of the normal control design.Such as the Bedford R type and vice versa such as in the case of the old short nose Mack conventional.In which the conventional/normal control Mack has a more horizontal wheel setting than the cab over/forward control Bedford .
None of which has any connection whatsoever with time lines being that all the different types and anomalies were all in existence over the same period of time.On that note the typical cab over type horizontal wheel setting is no more ‘normal’ than the more vertical setting of the conventional type design. 
While the difference has become irrelevant since the time of the introduction of the Scania type,effectively vertical wheel adjustment provision,in the cab over/ forward control design.Which then leaves the better question is the same provision available vice versa in the typical long nose conventional more vertically angled wheel setting which would allow it to be adjusted to the more horizontal setting for those who prefer it.
robert1952:
Just googled ‘earliest cabover’ and got quite a good history from America. Here’s the link. Robert
Thank you Robert, so it look like it was an American idea but it caught on all over as most modern lorrys have it now
atlas man:
robert1952:
Just googled ‘earliest cabover’ and got quite a good history from America. Here’s the link. RobertThank you Robert, so it look like it was an American idea but it caught on all over as most modern lorrys have it now
No probs, Atlasman, but the website only shows it from an American point of view so it is quite possible/probable that Europeans had already thought of it! So we need to delve further, methinks. Robert
Carryfast:
2-series Scanias had the earliest fully adjustable steering wheels that I can remember.
Probably the most comfortable over-the wheel (as opposed to the behind it) driving positions I have ever experienced is the old ERF NGC European; and the B-series ERF came close. I have always far preferred to be over the steering wheel, in command of all that I survey! The Iveco Stralis has a brilliant position (for a modern lorry!).
A lot depends on the angle of the steering wheel. In older ERFs it was pretty flat but in Fodens it was almost completely flat (horizontal, that is). But there were grey areas, like the Bristol Lodekka, for example, which had a steering wheel at half tilt. I think some Leyland Hippos had a similar arrangement.
Robert
robert1952:
atlas man:
robert1952:
Just googled ‘earliest cabover’ and got quite a good history from America. Here’s the link. RobertThank you Robert, so it look like it was an American idea but it caught on all over as most modern lorrys have it now
No probs, Atlasman, but the website only shows it from an American point of view so it is quite possible/probable that Europeans had already thought of it! So we need to delve further, methinks. Robert
That’s a really interesting question Robert.The amount of Euro or Brit cab over designs before 1907 or even earlier ?.Ironically I’d guess that the idea of the cab over took off more in America relatively earlier while the conventional seems to have been more,or at least as,common in Euroland and here until relatively later.While America now seems to have gone back to the conventional big time.Not surprisingly considering all the pros and cons between the two opposing ideas.
While the 1899 Daimler 4 hp shows that the OP’s ‘driver over the wheel’ position.Or the anomaly of the vertical steering column/horizontal wheel in the case of the short nose conventional design is nothing new.IE there are exceptions which prove the rule that the vertical steering column/horizontal wheel design is always linked to the forward control steering position and vice versa.On that note I’d say that the Maxwell cab over was a retrograde design v the Daimler short nose conventional. 
Carryfast:
robert1952:
atlas man:
robert1952:
Just googled ‘earliest cabover’ and got quite a good history from America. Here’s the link. RobertThank you Robert, so it look like it was an American idea but it caught on all over as most modern lorrys have it now
No probs, Atlasman, but the website only shows it from an American point of view so it is quite possible/probable that Europeans had already thought of it! So we need to delve further, methinks. Robert
That’s a really interesting question Robert.The amount of Euro or Brit cab over designs before 1907 or even earlier ?.Ironically I’d guess that the idea of the cab over took off more in America relatively earlier while the conventional seems to have been more,or at least as,common in Euroland and here until relatively later.While America now seems to have gone back to the conventional big time.Not surprisingly considering all the pros and cons between the two opposing ideas.
While the 1899 Daimler 4 hp shows that the OP’s ‘driver over the wheel’ position.Or the anomaly of the vertical steering column/horizontal wheel in the case of the short nose conventional design is nothing new.IE there are exceptions which prove the rule that the vertical steering column/horizontal wheel design is always linked to the forward control steering position and vice versa.On that note I’d say that the Maxwell cab over was a retrograde design v the Daimler short nose conventional.
These little back-to-front anomalies seem to occur frequently in transport. It is usually to do with rules and regulations concerning construction and use, length regs, weight regs etc. In this case, overall length regs seem to have had some considerable influence upon the ‘forward control / CoE’ design. ‘Normal control’ designs appear to have continued in those countries with wide open spaces like Australia, Africa, most of the US and Russia.
Another factor will have been conservative attitudes to design; ie drivers and operators who believed that a bonneted truck gave better driver protection in accidents - the driver of a ‘cab-over’ is the first at the scene of an accident; and those who believed that it was easier to work on an engine that wasn’t under the cab in very hot climates. Both these beliefs are by no means without foundation! So for us on this forum, it’s simply down to personal preference (and I like a ‘cab-over’ because that’s what I’m used to!). Robert
atlas man:
When you see the old motors with LAD cab, old fodens , ERFs , the old Traders and the foreign motors the drivers are sat behind the wheel, I just wondered who made the first one were the driver was sat over the wheel which became the normal and what seems to be the standard position in all lorry’s now im just getting old and these silly questions pop in to your head
Just an observation here: the LAD cab Leylands were forward-control with the driver sitting above a flat steering wheel, whereas the Ford Trader drivers sat behind the wheel which was angled at half-tilt (rather like the Bristol Lodekka buses I mentioned earlier), with a bonnet that was snubbed and not entirely protruded - so there were real ‘grey areas’ here. The foreign motors you refer to varied enormously, with steering-wheels and bonnets at all sorts of angles and configurations. Robert
robert1952:
atlas man:
When you see the old motors with LAD cab, old fodens , ERFs , the old Traders and the foreign motors the drivers are sat behind the wheel, I just wondered who made the first one were the driver was sat over the wheel which became the normal and what seems to be the standard position in all lorry’s now im just getting old and these silly questions pop in to your headJust an observation here: the LAD cab Leylands were forward-control with the driver sitting above a flat steering wheel, whereas the Ford Trader drivers sat behind the wheel which was angled at half-tilt (rather like the Bristol Lodekka buses I mentioned earlier), with a bonnet that was snubbed and not entirely protruded - so there were real ‘grey areas’ here. The foreign motors you refer to varied enormously, with steering-wheels and bonnets at all sorts of angles and configurations. Robert
Realistically I’d guess that we need to define cab over and forward control as opposed to all the different possible permutations of ‘conventional’ and ‘normal control’.
On that note it would probably be fair to say that designs like the Trader and Bedford R/S type arguably fit into the latter group.While forward control by definition means that the steering column and wheel are all ahead of the front axle.Which by necessity means a more or less vertical column and therefore more or less horizontal wheel setting.At least until the type of wheel adjustment referred to previously was introduces thereby allowing a more vertical normal control type wheel setting.
While conventional/normal control can be anything from the Trader/Bedford R/S type cab/engine position and horizontal angled steering column vertical wheel position.To the example of the vertical steering column and horizontal wheel setting in the example of the 1899 Daimler 4 hp.The definition of ‘normal’ in that case just meaning that the wheel position is behind the front axle.
So to answer the OP’s question.The ‘over the wheel’ driving position referred to was in place at least as of 1899.But is more likely to be found in the forward control configuration which was available at least as of 1906.
Sentinel or Foden steamers■■?
grumpy old man:
Sentinel or Foden steamers■■?
They seem to follow the usual rule that the more vertically angled wheel setting is most likely to be found in the normal control configuration ( Foden ) and more horizontal angled wheel in the forward control configuration ( Sentinel ).
carsfotodb.com/uploads/foden … ton-12.jpg
youtube.com/watch?v=JKwiz0x4fLg
While the angle of the wheel in the normal control configuration is dependent on front axle position and steering box mounting position and thereby the angle of the steering column.Such as the Leyland Landtrain which combines a forward control type steering box mounting position with the normal control configuration.Although it does seem to have been fitted with a UJ between the column shaft and wheel thereby allowing a more horizontal wheel position than the column would otherwise allow.
Carryfast:
grumpy old man:
Sentinel or Foden steamers■■?They seem to follow the usual rule that the more vertically angled wheel setting is most likely to be found in the normal control configuration ( Foden ) and more horizontal angled wheel in the forward control configuration ( Sentinel ).
There are many exceptions to that rule, starting with the bonetted Leyland Super Hippos in the 1950s. This is a good example because there were two sorts: one with the horizontal steering wheel and the other with the raked vertical one. The two pics below illustrate my point.
Then there are countless American trucks with long bonnets but horizontal steering wheels. However, I suspect that the OP simply wished to know when CoE became fashionable and we appear to answered that question (ish!). Robert
robert1952:
Carryfast:
grumpy old man:
Sentinel or Foden steamers■■?They seem to follow the usual rule that the more vertically angled wheel setting is most likely to be found in the normal control configuration ( Foden ) and more horizontal angled wheel in the forward control configuration ( Sentinel ).
There are many exceptions to that rule, starting with the bonetted Leyland Super Hippos in the 1950s. This is a good example because there were two sorts: one with the horizontal steering wheel and the other with the raked vertical one. The two pics below illustrate my point.
Then there are countless American trucks with long bonnets but horizontal steering wheels. However, I suspect that the OP simply wished to know when CoE became fashionable and we appear to answered that question (ish!). Robert
10
That was the point I was making with the example of the Daimler 4 hp.IE the normal control/conventional configuration can provide numerous variations from horizontal to effectively vertical depending on front axle and steering box mounting positions.
While forward control is much less likely,by the geometrical limitations,to have a wheel setting much beyond the horizontal.At least until the later adjustable wheel setting such as the Scania was introduced.
Carryfast:
robert1952:
Carryfast:
grumpy old man:
Sentinel or Foden steamers■■?They seem to follow the usual rule that the more vertically angled wheel setting is most likely to be found in the normal control configuration ( Foden ) and more horizontal angled wheel in the forward control configuration ( Sentinel ).
There are many exceptions to that rule, starting with the bonetted Leyland Super Hippos in the 1950s. This is a good example because there were two sorts: one with the horizontal steering wheel and the other with the raked vertical one. The two pics below illustrate my point.
Then there are countless American trucks with long bonnets but horizontal steering wheels. However, I suspect that the OP simply wished to know when CoE became fashionable and we appear to answered that question (ish!). Robert
10
That was the point I was making with the example of the Daimler 4 hp.IE the normal control/conventional configuration can provide numerous variations from horizontal to effectively vertical depending on front axle and steering box mounting positions.
While forward control is much less likely,by the geometrical limitations,to have a wheel setting much beyond the horizontal.At least until the later adjustable wheel setting such as the Scania was introduced.
D’accord, CF! Robert 