Thought I might drop this in for some advise from the more experienced guys out ther. I have been doing a 3 week contract to help a friend which involves double manning some hurry up “stuff” from Glasgow to Heilbronne, the contract requires us to do the drop in one “shift”. My initial reaction was that it cant be done legally under the D/M rules of 21work+9rest, my co driver and his Boss think that we actually have 30hrs to cover the run.
Can some of you correct me if i’m wrong but my interpretation is that from the minute you put the card in you have 21 hours before you must have a 9 hour break. I also believe that the time spent waiting and crossing on the ferry will be counted towards the 21 hours.
If you use the 21 hour rule you loose time, if you use a ferry you loose time,there is no time to load or unload any drops enroute so unless you have Paul Daniels as your running partner this rule is a complete waste of time. We would be better off with both drivers useing their own (single man)time and getting a full 30 hours work!!
I popped in the rule from VOSA to help
advantage of multi-manning rules:
The maximum driving for a two-man crew taking advantage of this concession is 20 hours before a
daily rest is required (although only if both drivers are entitled to drive 10 hours).
Under multi-manning, the ‘second’ driver in a crew may not necessarily be the same driver for
the duration of the first driver’s shift but could in principle be any number of drivers as long as the
conditions are met. Whether these second drivers could claim the multi-manning concession in these
circumstances would depend on their other duties.
On a multi-manning operation the first 45 minutes of a period of availability will be considered to be a
break, so long as the co-driver does no work.
Journeys involving ferry or train transport
Where a driver accompanies a vehicle that is being transported by ferry or train, the daily rest
requirements are more flexible.
A regular daily rest period may be interrupted no more than twice, but the total interruption must not
exceed 1 hour in total. This allows for a vehicle to be driven onto a ferry and off at the end of a sea
crossing. Where the rest period is interrupted in this way, the total ■■■■■■■■■ rest period must still
be 11 hours. A bunk or couchette must be available during the rest period.
Driver 1 Driver 2
Daily rest Daily rest
Other work 1 hour Daily rest (not on vehicle) 1 hour
Driving 4.5 hours Availability 4.5 hours
Break + availability 4.5 hours Driving 4.5 hours
Driving 4.5 hours Break + availability 4.5 hours
Break + availability 4.5 hours Driving 4.5 hours
Driving 1 hour Break + availability 1 hour
Break 1 hour Driving 1 hour
Daily rest (9 hours) Daily rest (9 hours)
josier:
Can some of you correct me if i’m wrong but my interpretation is that from the minute you put the card in you have 21 hours before you must have a 9 hour break. I also believe that the time spent waiting and crossing on the ferry will be counted towards the 21 hours.
You are correct. When multi-manning, the new name for double manning, you must have 9 hours rest, in one continuous lump, in the 30-hour period which begins when you resume work after a rest period. You are correct in saying this then leaves you with 21 hours maximum shift length. Everything you do from the moment you start work, driving, working, queuing for a ferry, time on board the ferry and so on is part of those 21 hours.
josier:
W would be better of with both driversw useing their own time and getting a full 30 hours work!!
The only way that would be possible would be for one driver to take it so far then hand it over to the second driver somewhere on route, while the first driver books into a hotel for his daily rest.
You could not do it with both drivers on the vehicle for the whole journey because you cannot take rest in a moving vehicle, you can take break in a moving vehicle. The second driver would not be able to take rest while the first did their shift and then the first driver would be illegal as soon as he passes 15 hours from starting while the second driver did their shift.
try telling your boss this (2) drivers Glasgow–Lokeren (truck-stop)
in Belgian, where 2 new drivers are waiting in the Hotel there for
the guys to arrive, A quick swap over and the new drivers go down to
Heilbronn (D) and return back swapping again with the newly rested
drivers who leg it off back to Glasgow, , We used to do this quite often but to other destinations when we had to supply our customers 24/7 when they were have TÃœV tests on the factory or major breakdowns,this happen at least
once every three years , to the factorys and we had a lot of factorys,
to deliver to,
Thanks for the replies folks, Dover seems to be the preferred route so we can’t use any extended routes to apply some rest periods. But only another week to go.
Can somebody tell me any other industry where your penalised for following the rules, by this I mean e,g. 2 hrs wait at Calais supping tea, 1.5hrs on a ferry eating showering and watching the telly, get to Freshlinc’s depot and sit 8 hours on a bay to get loaded bang goes 11.5 hours of 2 mens time sitting on our arse doing nothing, which must be deducted from the 21hrs avaialable, but costing our bosses time and money and us another night listening to your mate ■■■■■■■ and jumping down for a ■■■■ four times a night. (he probably says the same about me)
The Joys.
I know we are going to break the law/bend the rules but I have asked the boss to take the truck to Lockerbie and this will give us the 2 hrs that will get us to Heilbronne in good time.
The old wagon is getting replaced next month with a brand new shiney 10 reg with a lovely digi card, so no more sitting in an autohoff 50ks from your destination wondering the best way to cheat the system.
josier:
Dover seems to be the preferred route so we can’t use any extended routes to apply some rest periods.
Sorry, but this appears to me to be another tin pot operation that is forcing its drivers to bend the rules in order to save a few bob to “satisfy” a “contract”.
It is possible to do this run, double manned legally in 27 hours:
Leave Glasgow 1pm.
6 hour run down to Killingholme with 1 driver change en route.
Arrive Killingholme 7pm and onto boat and start daily rest at 8pm at the latest.
Disembark Hoek van Holland at 9am (local) having had at least 12 hours rest on boat.
8 hour run down to Heilbronn with 1 driver change en route.
Arrive Heilbronn 5pm (local) (4pm English time ie 27 hours door to door)
Simon’s mob (Millar International from Stirling) usually ship out of Hull for the very reason that they can start a new shift as soon as they get off the boat.
From Scotland its the only sensible way to go, and anybody that says otherwise is talking out of their bottom
Inselaffe, Tin pot is rather harsh.I believe what we have is someone who has all his eggs in the one basket. When the customer (***) gave him this short term contract they assured him that there drivers do it regularly. He has accepted the job without qualifying the actual journey times, an error of judgement but not enough to put him in the Tin Pot basket. When I explained the double manning rules “clearly” he did not “force” us to go over our time or threaten to have my first born sold into slavery.
I agree that other ports would satisfy the job but only Dover was on the cards,not even the train which might have gained me another couple of hours.
josier:
Dover seems to be the preferred route so we can’t use any extended routes to apply some rest periods.
Sorry, but this appears to me to be another tin pot operation that is forcing its drivers to bend the rules in order to save a few bob to “satisfy” a “contract”.
It is possible to do this run, double manned legally in 27 hours:
Leave Glasgow 1pm.
6 hour run down to Killingholme with 1 driver change en route.
Arrive Killingholme 7pm and onto boat and start daily rest at 8pm at the latest.
Disembark Hoek van Holland at 9am (local) having had at least 12 hours rest on boat.
8 hour run down to Heilbronn with 1 driver change en route.
Arrive Heilbronn 5pm (local) (4pm English time ie 27 hours door to door)
Simon’s mob (Millar International from Stirling) usually ship out of Hull for the very reason that they can start a new shift as soon as they get off the boat.
From Scotland its the only sensible way to go, and anybody that says otherwise is talking out of their bottom
And could be done with just one driver using this route in under 30 hours, adding in an extra couple of hours for breaks on the way from Glasgow to the ferry and from the Hook to Heilbronn. Instead the boss seems happy to pay two lots of wages with extra mileage and next to no chance of doing it in 21 hours. You couldn’t make it up.
On the subject of double manning, one of our drivers got a tug at Beaune last week and on checking his tachos was fines €5300 for offenses, two were over hours €2300 and one (€3000) was for a card where he was double manning with me and we had a breakdown before he even drove and ended up parked for the weekend without him turning a wheel. so his card showed about 70km but no trace as the card was in the 2nd drivers slot. The Condoms said he must have pulled a fuse and he should have been carrying a copy of my tacho to prove otherwise. Now I am a great believer in Data protection, so nobody who isn’t entitled will have a copy of my tachos. but on this occasion I relented and scanned mine and emailed it to the said coppers who said it was too late and the boss would have to pay the €3000 to get the truck released, then appeal to the courts for the money back…Our boss spoke to Vosa and they couldn’t understand what the problem was with the Tacho in the first place €3000 for no driving is a complete con ■■■■■■■ robbing ■■■■■■■
jimti:
On the subject of double manning, one of our drivers got a tug at Beaune last week and on checking his tachos was fines €5300 for offenses, two were over hours €2300 and one (€3000) was for a card where he was double manning with me and we had a breakdown before he even drove and ended up parked for the weekend without him turning a wheel. so his card showed about 70km but no trace as the card was in the 2nd drivers slot. The Condoms said he must have pulled a fuse and he should have been carrying a copy of my tacho to prove otherwise. Now I am a great believer in Data protection, so nobody who isn’t entitled will have a copy of my tachos. but on this occasion I relented and scanned mine and emailed it to the said coppers who said it was too late and the boss would have to pay the €3000 to get the truck released, then appeal to the courts for the money back…Our boss spoke to Vosa and they couldn’t understand what the problem was with the Tacho in the first place €3000 for no driving is a complete con [zb] robbing [zb]
That deposit should never have been paid but now it has it must be appealed to get the cash back.
Coffeeholic:
That deposit should never have been paid but now it has it must be appealed to get the cash back.
We had 3 jobs on the truck and had been parked there for 6 days before having to pay to get the truck moving again. The crazy thing was the driver who is supposedly the offender was free to go, yet the truck (not the one the “offenses” were committed in) was impounded.
If the truck was empty the boss would have left it there until it was sorted out. They wouldn’t even explain what offense they believed was committed!
Is there no chance of your Boss if he is in the RHA or FTA getting in touch with their legal adviser, and get them to enquire and also clear the problem up , or Failing that try talking to the French equivalent of say the RHA; FTA we have enough members on here who live say in France , Spain Germany etc etc and ask them to act as translator , I have done this for a couple of guys who had problems in Germany, ALSO does your firm have a legal adviser if so get him or her to enquire on your firms behalf in France, I still have a card which covers me for the fee a lawyer might cost me when i reqiure one, well worth its weight in gold,
my boss is fluent in French so language isn’t a problem, he hadn’t seen the papers for the offences yet as the driver isn’t back in the UK yet, but there was definitely no offence on the €3000 tacho, it was only in the 2nd man position and only in the head for about 4 hours while mine was in the drivers position and recorded all the driving
When I get to see the paperwork I will post the info on here… we are in removals (BAR) etc not FTA or RHA
Is it about time VOSA started holding Foreign Trucks on some Minor Issues and charging extortionate Fines when Johhny Foreigner’s Government start complaining the answer they should get is Don’t **** with our Drivers and we won’t **** with yours.
Will they do that, will they Hell yet again this country lets our people get reamed and does nowt about it.
Got back to Uk Thursday night by train on -off, no problem compared to the way out on Tuesday/Wed Morning 4 hr delay because of bad weather. Just made it to Heilbronn with little to spare ended up running the wire to the Autohoff at Sinsheim. 10 euros to park and vouchers back for 7.50 euros, seems fair but showers not working, two Fraulines working the pub were as inviting as rotweiler on steriods. Next morning tipped the last drop in Frankfurt DHL then reloaded in osnabruck for Iceland North London. Job done.
Thanks for all the advice guys but the one thing I did learn was that I won’t be doing Double-manning again in a hurry.
