Good Morning all
We currently work our trunks as a double manned operation, and our software for the tacho’s is set up to record p.o.a as break but i am still reciving WTD 6hr rule infringements.
Do my drivers still need to take a 30min break for the 6hr rule■■?
I ask because if the first 45mins of poa is classed as a break wouldnt this clear your clock to start a fresh regarding breaks??
Regards
Mick
Stokie1976:
We currently work our trunks as a double manned operation, and our software for the tacho’s is set up to record p.o.a as break but i am still reciving WTD 6hr rule infringements.Do my drivers still need to take a 30min break for the 6hr rule■■?
I ask because if the first 45mins of poa is classed as a break wouldnt this clear your clock to start a fresh regarding breaks??
Regards
Mick
Its 15 mins for 6 hours work under the RTD not 30 but that is probably immaterial if you have poa counted as break
Does the actual printout confirm that you have taken the correct breaks ? - if yes then its the software that is incorrectly set up
Could you post what you do on an average shift so we can take a look ?
Stokie1976:
Good Morning allWe currently work our trunks as a double manned operation, and our software for the tacho’s is set up to record p.o.a as break but i am still reciving WTD 6hr rule infringements.
Do my drivers still need to take a 30min break for the 6hr rule■■?
I ask because if the first 45mins of poa is classed as a break wouldnt this clear your clock to start a fresh regarding breaks??
Regards
Mick
I suppose the answer depends on how much other work your drivers do, bearing in mind that POA does not count as working time do the drivers even reach 6 hours working time in the shifts ?
I think POA 45 minutes guide for double manned is for drive time as tacho resets your drive time, so when you get back behind the wheel you will have 4.5 hours drive available. I don’t think its for RTD so if your working time is 6 hours you would need to show a 30 minutes break, or over 9 hours work a 45 minutes.
delboytwo:
I think POA 45 minutes guide for double manned is for drive time as tacho resets your drive time, so when you get back behind the wheel you will have 4.5 hours drive available. I don’t think its for RTD so if your working time is 6 hours you would need to show a 30 minutes break, or over 9 hours work a 45 minutes.
Breaks count for both regs so if poa 45 mins is deemed as break then I do not see why it does not count
The software might not recognise it though
ROG:
delboytwo:
I think POA 45 minutes guide for double manned is for drive time as tacho resets your drive time, so when you get back behind the wheel you will have 4.5 hours drive available. I don’t think its for RTD so if your working time is 6 hours you would need to show a 30 minutes break, or over 9 hours work a 45 minutes.Breaks count for both regs so if poa 45 mins is deemed as break then I do not see why it does not count
The software might not recognise it though
yes I know that Rog but the 45 minutes guide double manned is only for EU regs there no where in Vosa saying it can be used for RTD working time regs
delboytwo:
ROG:
delboytwo:
I think POA 45 minutes guide for double manned is for drive time as tacho resets your drive time, so when you get back behind the wheel you will have 4.5 hours drive available. I don’t think its for RTD so if your working time is 6 hours you would need to show a 30 minutes break, or over 9 hours work a 45 minutes.Breaks count for both regs so if poa 45 mins is deemed as break then I do not see why it does not count
The software might not recognise it though
yes I know that Rog but the 45 minutes guide double manned is only for EU regs there no where in Vosa saying it can be used for RTD working time regs
nowhere does it say it cannot either
Rog
Vosa consider the first 45 minutes of POA as break when doubled manned it do not say, and RTD working time
the driver as no breaks showing on his tacho and that’s why he is getting infringements
my advise to the OP is to use spread sheets for RTD records and not tacho software the benefit in this is there will only have to keep the tacho records for 1 year and not 2 years if there use tacho software.
delboytwo:
RogVosa consider the first 45 minutes of POA as break when doubled manned it do not say, and RTD working time
.
AGAIN - it does not say - but does not include breaks for the RTD
Neither you nor I can state for certain either way so it will end up going around in circles
Contact VOSA and ask them how they view this for drivers in the UK because they have the remit for both sets of regs
Common sense says it will count for both
ROG:
delboytwo:
RogVosa consider the first 45 minutes of POA as break when doubled manned it do not say, and RTD working time
.AGAIN - it does not say - but does not include breaks for the RTD POA is not a break under RTD
Neither you nor I can state for certain either way so it will end up going around in circles
Contact VOSA and ask them how they view this for drivers in the UK because they have the remit for both sets of regs
Common sense says it will count for both
Where does it state in any of the rules that it is not ?
ROG:
Where does it state in any of the rules that it is not ?
Are you for real, if you don’t know the difference of a break or a POA
Break means this
(d) ‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not
carry out any driving or any other work and which is
used exclusively for recuperation;
POA is this
“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to
remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume
driving or to carry out other work , including periods during which the mobile worker is
accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting
at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;
you will not find in any regulation that state you can use a POA for break, only a note from Vosa that there except the first 45 minutes of POA if doubled manned.
so how can a POA be a break.
if it was classed as a break then what’s the point of having it in the first place.
the driver in the passenger seat official can’t have a break, if you look at the meaning of break, its just that Vosa allow it.
delboytwo:
ROG:
Where does it state in any of the rules that it is not ?Are you for real, if you don’t know the difference of a break or a POA
Break means this
(d) ‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not
carry out any driving or any other work and which is
used exclusively for recuperation;POA is this
“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to
remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume
driving or to carry out other work , including periods during which the mobile worker is
accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting
at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;you will not find in any regulation that state you can use a POA for break, only a note from Vosa that there except the first 45 minutes of POA if doubled manned.
so how can a POA be a break.
if it was classed as a break then what’s the point of having it in the first place.
the driver in the passenger seat official can’t have a break, if you look at the meaning of break, its just that Vosa allow it.
You can only record POA in the passenger seat, there is no option to record break or other work in a moving vehicle, so the only thing you can do is a manual entry or fill out a timesheet for the RTD
DEL, put simply …
VOSA and other EU authorities have stated that when multi manning the first 45 mins of recorded POA in slot 2 will be deemed as break because there is no way to record break in that situation
They do not state anything else such as that it is only a break for the tacho regs … unless you have found something that says differently ?
ROG:
VOSA and other EU authorities have stated that when multi manning the first 45 mins of recorded POA in slot 2 will be deemed as break because there is no way to record break in that situation
yes bang on as you say, but not for RTD working time
If you read the RTD working time 2005 you willl not find anything listed to cover drivers multi manning
so this is why the op is getting infringements for RTD
delboytwo:
ROG:
VOSA and other EU authorities have stated that when multi manning the first 45 mins of recorded POA in slot 2 will be deemed as break because there is no way to record break in that situationyes bang on as you say, but not for RTD working time
If you read the RTD working time 2005 you willl not find anything listed to cover drivers multi manning
so this is why the op is getting infringements for RTD
What it does refer to is breaks - it does not say how those breaks need to done or not done
Perhaps the software is not good enough
delboytwo:
ROG:
VOSA and other EU authorities have stated that when multi manning the first 45 mins of recorded POA in slot 2 will be deemed as break because there is no way to record break in that situationyes bang on as you say, but not for RTD working time
If you read the RTD working time 2005 you willl not find anything listed to cover drivers multi manning
so this is why the op is getting infringements for RTD
Those two statements are wrong on my part, 
I have read the RTD again and found that what I have said was wrong
Here is where I when wrong
Periods of availability
6.–(1) A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows
before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably
foreseeable duration.
(2) The time spent by a mobile worker, who is working as part of a team, travelling in, but not
driving, a moving vehicle as part of that team shall be a period of availability for that mobile
worker.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) a period of availability shall not include a period of rest or a break.
(4) A period of availability may include a break taken by a mobile worker during waiting time
or time which is not devoted to driving by the mobile worker and is spent in a moving vehicle, a
ferry or a train.
The bit in red is what I read and closed my eyes to the bit in blue but if you read the bit in bold you will see my mistake
So big apologies to Rog and all others.